Bugs Plague New Xbox 360 Video Service

eldavojohn writes "The BBC is running a story on problems with the Xbox 360's HD video service that went live a few days ago. I have wondered quite a bit how Microsoft runs the proxy caches for this service and how they are ensuring that their end consumers are not creating high amounts of internet traffic while downloading HD video." From the article: "Gamers can buy TV programmes but the movies are rented and are automatically deleted from the console's hard drive after a fixed period. 'We've made progress over the past 24 hours, and the team is dedicated to fixing the issues and continues to work as fast as they can around the clock to get the service running as seamlessly as you have come to expect,' wrote Mr Hryb, who is Xbox Live's director of programming, on his Major Nelson Xbox blog.

Comments

Not so good... :)

[Lord_Rion]

Well.. I logged into live on the first day this service was offered (stupid I know) and have been trying to dl a HD movie for a couple of days now. When I went to bed last night it was at 59%. If this is the best they can do "It's not soo good!". IMO.. :)

Re:Not so good... :)

[RichMan]

I wonder when the time out starts:

1) pay for movie, expiry time set to 4 days, download begins
2) .... downloading ....
3) .... 5 days later ....
4) download complete.
5) Your movie has expired. Would you like to renew your rental for 4 more days?

6) Profit X 2

Re:Not so good... :)

[abandonment]

if it's based on their standard DRM stuff you recieve your license the first time the movie is played - WiMP goes onto the net and grabs the license...so in 'theory' it wouldn't start until you actually finish the download.

which is the biggest area of issues with this new service apparently - simply getting a download to complete is the hard part...

360 is game system 1st, video download service 2nd

[ConfusedSelfHating]

There will be bugs for a while. Microsoft will attempt to iron out those bugs. Microsoft has the advantage that this is an added feature. People buy the Xbox 360 as a game system, it won't be a big deal if the video download service takes a while to get up and running. Of course people who have paid for downloads that haven't worked will be pissed.

arg

[AcidLacedPenguiN]

I'm surprised there aren't a million "Zomg! Microsoft is teh sux, x rullzz" (where x is the name of their console of choice) comments already. The troubling thing is that Nintendo seems to have the same problem, and I bet once Sony has stuff to sell in their online PS3 stores they'll suffer from it as well. It is obvious that there is a demand for online movie/ television sales, but this raises a damn fine question, are ISPs really able to dish out enough bandwidth? I think that while we are entirely ready to receive these services it is evident that our ISPs and Microsoft's/Nintendo's/Sony's server farms are not ready to provide us. I see in the news all the time that in the UK and Japan 10MBit/S connections are fairly common, but here in the US and Canada a 1 to 3 MBit/S connection is fairly uncommon. (Keep in mind I'm talking about home connections, not business or corporate)

It's like our ISPs are keeping their services low, their profits high, and their pockets lined. . . But that's a whole other ballgame. . .

Re:arg

[Thansal]

Meh, we expect this type of thing by now, and it does not matter on the company. I expect that they will have it working in the next couple of days.

Speaking of gettign stuff workign in the next couple of days, can any one report on how the Wii online stuff is going? is it working now?

Re:arg

[Yvan256]

I don't know where you live in Canada, but here in Quebec (part of Canada, last time I checked) 3Mbps DSL connections and 5-10Mbps cable connections are the norm, not the exception.

In fact, even the "low-cost" option is to have a 1Mbps DSL connection.

Re:arg

[Headcase88]

I got access to the Shop on launch day easily. I visit it plenty though I've only bought one thing (Bomberman '93), and no probs with that download. It does take about 15-30 seconds to enter the shop though.

Long story short, the online service has always "been working", if you're fortunate enough to have a fully-working system to go with it.

Why have a 'Fixed Period'?

[HappySqurriel]

Why do they even have a fixed period of time before a movie is deleted from a person's hard-drive?

The XBox 360's hard-drive is 20GBs which (should) allow for (about) 20 to 40 SD movies or 5 to 10 HD movies; eventually they will have to 'return' the movie (that is delete it) or they will run out of hard-drive space. Currently most rental places have eliminated late fees (with a small restocking fee after a week), and online services have no time limitations, so why would I pay the same ammount and be put in a far more limited system?

Re:Why have a 'Fixed Period'?

[Anonymous Coward]

Currently most rental places have eliminated late fees (with a small restocking fee after a week)

Please explain how a "small restocking fee" after returning a movie after a fixed period of time isn't a "late fee." Just because they're calling it something else doesn't change what it is.

Re:Why have a 'Fixed Period'?

[Keeper]

Storage space isn't the issue. Rental movies can't be stored for any real duration -- they're deleted after you watch them. TV shows can be redownloaded as many times as you like after purchasing them. If you run out of space, delete the show; if you want to watch it in the future, download it again for free.

Re:Why have a 'Fixed Period'?

[LordKronos]

most late fee are per day late the restocking fee is the same if you are 1 day late or 20 days late

Yeah, well that's certainly not a restocking fee. It's a flat rate late fee.

Bandwidth and Hard Disk

[AKAImBatman]

The God's honest truth is that the general bandwidth available and the 360 hard disk size conspire against downloadable HDTV content. If you're using this service, you're basically trying a beta service that going to have difficulities until the consumer infrastructure is updated.

That said, this is the future. Pure and simple. IMHO, Bluray and HDDVD disks will not gain traction in this generation, and will end up losing to download services like iTunes and 360 Videos. So keep an eye on this space, but expect a few bumps until the technology is ready.

(Not that Bluray and HDDVD isn't without their own bumps...)

Re:Bandwidth and Hard Disk

[HappySqurriel]

I agree that a service like this is the future, but I think that the future is further off than people expect ...

There are two things that are preventing the adoption of any HD movie format; few people own a HDTV, in particular a HDTV that is high enough quality to notice the improvment between HD and 480p; and there is so little HD content that people really don't notice the difference between HD and 480p. I know people will disagree with me about this but until every broadcast is in 720p/1080i and everyone has the equipment to take advantage of that resolution people will automatically readjust to 480p and not notice the quality difference.

In about 2010 I expect that most people are going to be going crazy looking for HD content, if ISP bandwith is high enough and these services are inexpensive and mature enough I expect that the optical movie format will become obsolete.

Re:Bandwidth and Hard Disk

[cgenman]

There is a clear quality difference between recorded HDTV and broadcast HDTV. I agree with your assessment: broadcast HDTV is of so low quality as to be unnoticable. But having worked with HDTV's for about a year now, the low-rez recorded stuff is just terribly noticable, especially on the size of TV's where HDTV matters.

The lack of HDTV content is just a scanning issue. Take the negative, run it under a scanner, re-balance the colors, done. It's no more difficult to create HDTV content from a print negative than to create regular content. Likewise, the Xbox 360 tends to be very HDTV-centric... at one point I believe it was 50% of all 360 purchasers buying a HDTV at the same time. So you have the installed base congealing there, if nowhere else.

480p, BTW, while not actually considered high-def is still comparitively rare. 480i would be a fairer comparison.

Now, the one thing you don't mention is compression artifacts. 360 download videos are utterly, utterly compressed with WMV. I haven't had a chance to check out the high-rez compression (haven't downloaded anything at work), but the normal rez stuff is about what you would expect from a mid-grade torrent rip. Black gradients exhibit stepping, there is some blur around sharp edges. It looks good for mid-color range content like Chinatown, but it is bad for dark shows like Lost and completely dies on cartoons like Invader Zim.

As a side note, I'm planning a THX 1138 viewing party for when MS gets their servers together. "Hey, I'd like a movie. Go get me that movie. I'll see it later." It's not exactly video-on-demand, it's more like having a digital butler to run out and get what you want. Convienient.

Don't Bash Microsoft

[SilentOneNCW]

This doesn't look to be a problem due to poor engineering. This merely looks like Microsoft has underestimated the popularity of it's service. If anything, it is an indicator of Microsoft's continuing success in this console war, even as the PS3 and the Wii launch.

Re:Don't Bash Microsoft

[Caffeinate]

I would have to agree with this statement. 360 certainly has itself well placed in the current market; good games, good support (even if you have had problems, I think they're doing a good job at addressing the concerns of the community). I can certainly see the 360 becoming the centre of my entertainment system, especially if Microsoft successfully releases a Zune/portable Xbox and puts their IPTV technology into the Xbox. Because as popular as omgwtfM$!!1! may be on /., you have to admit that when they put their minds to something, they have the means to get it done.

but..

[Ender Ryan]

But.. if this was another one of Sony's screwups, they'd be vilified as being "evil" here on /. at this time. Or if it was Nintendo, people would be claiming that Nintendo's screwups just make things more fun or some such nonsense.. =P

Yeah, so this does in fact suck for people wanting to use this service. OTOH, it's a hard problem, and I don't see any other company offering a similar service. I didn't expect this to go off without a hitch.

So, I take it you'll give Sony an equally easy pass when their HD movie download service has similar growing pains?

Re:Prioritized networks?

[Ironsides]

Isn't a full HD rip of a 1 hour show a few gigs?

19.4Mbps (MegaBits) max. ~8.25GB/hour including any commercials. Then again, that is using MPEG2 with the ATSC (Broadcast DTV standard). Microsoft could be compressing the movies with WMV9 or h264 or one of the other compression standards and achieve a better compression ratio for the same quality. Theoretically, h264 and WMV9 could achieve a full hour in 4GB with the same quality, it would require a lot of adjustment, but given the amount of computing power MS has, they could do it.

Re:Bugs?

[Blakey Rat]

1) Yes, Amazon needs to "wootify" their servers. (Actually Woot.com goes down every day also...) I also missed out on the $100 Xbox deal, but it's no biggie since I already have one. (Was trying for a friend of mine.)

2) The fact that Microsoft's servers are literally OVERLOADED with people trying to use a gaming console for video shows that there seem to be a good many people wanting to do that. I mean, I know the whole "everybody thinks exactly like me!" disease is rampant here on Slashdot, but when the *article itself* shows that you're wrong, you'd think you'd hold-off posting it.

File Sizes and costs:

[cgenman]

V for Vendetta: 132 minutes
Standard Definition: 1.7 GB, $4
High Definition: 6.1 GB, $6

Poseidon: 98 minutes
Standard Definition: 1.3 GB, $4
High Definition: 4.5 GB, $6

Clash of the Titans: 117 Minutes
Standard Definition: 1.3 GB, $3
High Definition: 5.2 GB, $4.50

CSI Season 6, Episode 1: 43 Minutes
SD: 745 MB, $2
HD: 2.6 GB, $3

UFC Fights, Episode 1: 9 Minutes
SD: 240 MB, $2
HD: 997 MB, $3

Transformers Teaser Trailer: 1 minute
SD: 25 MB, Free
HD: 86 MB, Free

(1000 points for $12.50)

SD AVG: 10 MB per minute
HD AVG: 50 MB per minute

The quality of the normal-res shows are about what you'd expect for a mid-bitrate rip. I'm guessing a rip from an already compressed video source, just by the particulars of the artifacting. It looks fine for most filmed daylight videos, assuming there isn't too many solid sheets of light or dark. It does break down quite a bit on cartoons, a place where WMV has not done traditionally well, as the solid color gradients get stepped like a mayan temple and edges get fuzzy. Unfortunately, I haven't seen a high-def show on a high-def set, but the high-def videos that I've seen on regular resolution seem worth the upgrade if you like pretty pictures. If you just want to laugh at the South Park Warcraft video, the regular resolution stuff is fine. If you want to own a pristine, perfect, never-to-be-touched version... wait for the blue-ray.

BTW, a 100 GB disk is rumored / expected shortly. And now, badly needed.

Re:Wrong titles

[jonhorvath]

ISP should setup caching servers right on their network. They could then sell storage rights to content providers. This would be similar to how grocery stores sells self space for best visibility for their vendor's products. This would benefit all parties. It would lessen the load on the content provider's servers and network pipes. The ISP customer would get the fastest possible download speeds.