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Rare Still Leery of Downloadable Content

Posted by Zonk on from the as-are-we-all dept.

GamesIndustry.biz reports on comments by Rare lead designer Gregg Mayles, who has gone on record saying that Rare will only do downloadable content if there is a need. The popularity of their Viva Piñata title notwithstanding, the company has no interest in making content if there is no interest. From the article: "'We've got plenty of ideas for what we can do with downloadable content because Piñata is such a unique game ... But the jury is still out.' However, the team does still see the potential of Xbox Live and the push for downloadable content, with Viva Piñata offering interaction between players over the service. 'That vision of sending Piñata to each other was around before Xbox Live even existed. That's why [Viva Piñata] began life on a handheld PDA device because we wanted one machine that could communicate with another,' revealed Mayles."

44 comments

  1. No One Cares by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    There's a reason Nintendo dumped them...

    1. Re:No One Cares by HappySqurriel · · Score: 3, Informative

      There's a reason Nintendo dumped them...

      Well, the main reason was that Rare stopped filling the role that Nintendo needed them to fill and Nintendo was moving away from the 'Second Party' model. Rare was needed by Nintendo in order to supply their systems with several high quality games every year in order to keep consumer interest high, which was something they did fairly well up until about 1998 or so; late in the N64 generation many Rare games were taking 24-36 months to complete in an age where a long development cycle was 18 months. When Nintendo passed on buying Rare Perfect Dark Zero had been in development for 12 months, Kameo for 18 and both of those games were only released in 2005 (meaning they were in development for 5+ years).

      Rare is still a good developer with lots of talent, the problem is their management structure needs a serious change

    2. Re:No One Cares by EvilCabbage · · Score: 2, Interesting

      "When Nintendo passed on buying Rare Perfect Dark Zero had been in development for 12 months, Kameo for 18 and both of those games were only released in 2005 (meaning they were in development for 5+ years)."

      Neither Kameo no Perfect Dark Zero were that great. I have fond memories of Goldeneye, Diddy Kong Racing and Conkers Bad Fur Day, but the nostalgia may be clouding my judgement. Going back and playing these games now, they're not bad for a quick laugh, but they're not holding the attention the way I remember it. Where they really a great developer at all? Three stand out games and a bunch of other really, really ordinary titles doesn't really scream greatness to me. Especially considering the long development cycle of the games you mentioned, shouldn't the end result have been something truly outstanding?

    3. Re:No One Cares by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Rare, although absurdly overpriced, is a good fit for Microsoft and the Xbox. Games like Kameo and PDZ would have been torn to shreds in reviews on a Nintendo or Sony system, but with the abysmal number of good games on both Xboxes they are definitely a step up from the mass of pc developer shovel-ware that plagues Microsoft's library.

    4. Re:No One Cares by HappySqurriel · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Neither Kameo no Perfect Dark Zero were that great. I have fond memories of Goldeneye, Diddy Kong Racing and Conkers Bad Fur Day, but the nostalgia may be clouding my judgement. Going back and playing these games now, they're not bad for a quick laugh, but they're not holding the attention the way I remember it. Where they really a great developer at all? Three stand out games and a bunch of other really, really ordinary titles doesn't really scream greatness to me. Especially considering the long development cycle of the games you mentioned, shouldn't the end result have been something truly outstanding?

      I can't say that I've had too much hands on time with either Kameo or Perfect Dark Zero but what I would say is that the problem with these games was not lack of skill or shoddy development work but that there were better games that were released before either of these games. With Game Development you're trying to hit a moving target, this target is pretty clear 12 months ahead of time, kind of blury 24 months ahead of time, and very hard to see 36 months ahead of time; I could imagine it would be nearly impossible to predict where games would be 60+ months in the future.

      Goldeneye will suck in comparison to modern console FPS mainly because it was the game which spawned the genre on consoles; in the past 10 years they have come a long way. Conkers BFD would probably feel dated but I suspect the gameplay would still be fun, and I never liked DKR because I though Mario Kart was far superior. The game I think would demonstrate how great Rare once was would be Banjo Kazooie. Banjo Kazooie was probably the only platformer of the generation I thought was better that Mario 64, although Mario 64 was more important because it was more revolutionary; I personally don't think many games that have been released since then really exceed the quality of either of these games without moving drastically away from simple platforming.

    5. Re:No One Cares by Thraxen · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Are you kidding? The Xbox systems easily have more good games than the Nintendo systems. Nintendo has pretty much been supporting their past couple of systems by themselves. Rare is a media darling like Nintendo themselves so their games tend to get overrated in general. I think that would have held true on any platform. But that's starting to change. PDZ recently made a top 10 list of the worst launch games ever over at Joystiq. Maybe you don't play games that often or are simply unfamiliar with console in general, but most of the Xbox fan base doesn't consider PDZ or Kameo a step up from anything.

    6. Re:No One Cares by Ant+P. · · Score: 1

      The main reason they got bought out by Microsoft is that they were several million pounds in debt.

    7. Re:No One Cares by JFMulder · · Score: 1

      Three stand out games and a bunch of other really, really ordinary titles doesn't really scream greatness to me.

      To me Rare is best summed up as Killer Instinct 2. God I loved that game. I hope they're making a new one for the 360.

    8. Re:No One Cares by goarilla · · Score: 2, Interesting

      you're definatly missing
      the donkey kong country series, to me that trilogy
      raised the quality of 2D platformers to a new high
      and there is also killer instinct

      man those were the days

    9. Re:No One Cares by steveo777 · · Score: 2, Insightful
      It just sucks that PDZero and Kameo were so bad. I didn't get very far into Kameo but I couldn't even handle playing PDZero. The gameplay was crap. The graphics were good in that everything was shiny and hi-res. The graphics sucked in that whoever did the textures and the like really screwed up when they tried to make everything futuristic (ironic, seeing as it was a prequel). To sum it up, the game gave me a massive headache.

      I did, however, enjoy every game that Rare created for Nintendo. Here's hoping they can beat thier old classics.

      --
      This sig isn't original enough, it's time to come up with something witty...
    10. Re:No One Cares by edwdig · · Score: 1

      The Xbox systems easily have more good games than the Nintendo systems.

      True only if your idea of a good game is one that revolves around shooting.

    11. Re:No One Cares by asit+ler · · Score: 1

      Too many syllables per line, mate. It's not a haiku.

      And too many lines.

      Unfortunate that
      you must persist in these bad
      non-haiku hotness

      Which is ironic, because that was a haiku.

      Ha.

      --
      This is not the sig you're looking for.
  2. Oh come on. by entmike · · Score: 1

    I find it strange that they DON'T want to do downloadable content for this game. This is one of the few games I'd even want to see it done on.

    1. Re:Oh come on. by twistedsymphony · · Score: 3, Interesting

      It think it's important to note that with the exception of sports games (which generally have gamer pics for every team) Kameo and PDZ both rank in the top 5 for games with the most number of items available for download. Kameo has 38 items available for download. From strategy videos to gamer pics, themes, and even skin packs that are worth less then horse armor and perfect Dark Zero has 15 items.

      You'd think they'd be all over offering content for for a game where it actually makes sense. Perhaps they're soured by poor sales of Seasonally themed Kameo skins...

      Protip: maybe people don't want to buy insignificant chachkis for a mediocre game that only takes a few hours to complete. Maybe, just maybe, you'd have more success selling downloads of things that, I don't know, improve, extend, or refresh the gamplay?

      --
      Collector's Edition
  3. Networking? Maybe... by 4solarisinfo · · Score: 1

    Hey who knows, this whole networking thing could catch on... NAH, we'll just keep working in isolation and see if everyone else is wrong about it...

    1. Re:Networking? Maybe... by HappySqurriel · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Hey who knows, this whole networking thing could catch on... NAH, we'll just keep working in isolation and see if everyone else is wrong about it...

      I personally hope that everyone else is wrong about a micropayment based horse armor/episodal content system; personally, I don't want to spend $150+ to buy all of the race tracks and cars that were available in the base game in the previous generation.

    2. Re:Networking? Maybe... by chroot_james · · Score: 1

      the higher cost is exactly why industry will move to that. look at all the vista options. most consumers will say, "i could get the cheap one, but i REALLY want this!" and will fork up the extra cash. well, maybe i shouldn't say most, but that's what the various companies are banking on.

      --
      Reality is nothing but a collective hunch.
  4. that is lame by Programmer_In_Traini · · Score: 1

    >> saying that Rare will only do downloadable content if there is a need.

    that is so lame. "we'll jump in the bandwagon only if we see other people are making money first"

    historically, its the one taking the risk that gets payed off in the long run. those jumping in later only gets fractions (ok, except for blizzard and WoW)

    If we're beginning to see downloadable content its because there's a need for it, it'll only become bigger now.

    --
    If you look like your passport photo, you're too ill to travel. - Will Kommen
    1. Re:that is lame by BeardsmoreA · · Score: 1

      Lame maybe, but I'd argue that historically it's very rarely the ones taking the risks that get the big payoff, and generally those who stand back and see what works and then create a successful business model around it.

    2. Re:that is lame by mwvdlee · · Score: 4, Insightful

      And I, for one, applaud Rare for wanting to release finished products.

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    3. Re:that is lame by Programmer_In_Traini · · Score: 1

      You should take that business model and go explain it to the hundreds of thousands of investors making money out of buying low and selling high. when they buy low, the shares they're buying are risky, then if they pick right, it boom, the value raises like crazy and they sell.

      not saying that every risk pays off (thus calling it a risk) but sitting back and watching sure isnt how I ride my business.

      --
      If you look like your passport photo, you're too ill to travel. - Will Kommen
    4. Re:that is lame by Programmer_In_Traini · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Downloadable content doesn't necessarily means unfinished/unpolished content - it means episodic content. Are you gonna tell me that all MMOs out there are in fact botched products only rushed out to make a buck ?

      i think not.

      downloadable content is only the "online" version of single player/offline games.

      If you look at it, downloadable content just means "make money in the same business model MMOs do".

      I don't even see why its called a risk to begin with. They don't call it World of Warcrack for nothing, it works. you buy a game for 20ish bucks. you play the basic version for a few hours then, if you like it, you buy the next module/ unlock other character / new music / new art for the game. its really really basic and working already.

      BUT! you need a good game to begin with, thats why a lot of MMOs are not making a lot of money, they're not good enough.

      And like i said in the beginning, downloadable content doesnt mean botching your product, it means releasing a solid base game and focusing all the resources on keeping the player base and creating good downloadable content.

      --
      If you look like your passport photo, you're too ill to travel. - Will Kommen
    5. Re:that is lame by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Look at MS, or Samsung.

      In general, their strategies are entering market that is already proven to be viable, crush their competition by their piles of money, and suck dry as long as they can.

      Both of them are filthy riches, receiving tons of criticism as well.

    6. Re:that is lame by Aceticon · · Score: 1

      I read "unfinished" as "incomplete" - which is correct with episodic content since you can't actually play the game until the end before the last episode is out.

      Compare episodic games with a TV series:
      - Most episodes are more or less self-contained mini-stories with a beginning and an end, which take place in the "universe" created by the previous episodes and are slightly connected with previous stories.
      - Sometimes, there is a "big episode" which is split in two episodes. Things just hang at some point at the end of the first episode and the viewer has to wait for a week before seing how things turn out. This can be quite frustrating.
      - Often, the last episode of a season will be part one of one such "big episode". In this situation, viewers have to wait months to figure out how the store ends or, if they're unlucky, the next season wasn't filmed yet and gets cancelled, in which case they'll never see the end.

      The last situation is the most akin to episodic game content: get a game episode, play it for some hours until you reach the end of the episode and then wait for several months for the next episode, never knowing for sure if there will be a next episode.

      Kinda puts self-flagelation into a whole new context.

    7. Re:that is lame by twosmokes · · Score: 1

      you need a good game to begin with, thats why a lot of MMOs are not making a lot of money, they're not good enough.

      That's because most of the MMOs out there are in fact botched products only rushed out to make a buck.

  5. Git off my lawn! by Rob+T+Firefly · · Score: 1

    For years whenever someone has mentioned Rare I've immediately thought of that old "Donkey Kong Country" intro with Cranky Kong listening to his old crank-operated record player.

    I guess Cranky still works there.

    --
    Slashdot Burying Stories About Slashdot Media Owned
  6. Anyone else.... by Thraxen · · Score: 1

    ...find it odd that Rare is more or less questioning the viability of downloadable content on XBox Live when they are owned by MS? They try to cover their asses a bit by saying the don't know if it's a good model for them, but in the end they are still questioning a business model that their parent company is promoting heavily.

    1. Re:Anyone else.... by kinglink · · Score: 1

      They've also said basically the reason WHY there's downloadable content is because they are a first party company. They said really don't see it as a good model in the least.

      Even better unless the DLC is something that's worthwhile (A new car they couldn't get in time for a racing game.) There's little reason to get DLC, especially Rare's DLC which does little to improve the game. Free downloads is a great way to thank fans or do something special, but charging for additional costumes really gets fans backs up.

      That doesn't mean DLC isn't worthwhile, but I think Rare understands that certain games don't really require or get enhanced by it.

    2. Re:Anyone else.... by Babbster · · Score: 1
      That doesn't mean DLC isn't worthwhile, but I think Rare understands that certain games don't really require or get enhanced by it.

      Well, Viva Pinata is a game that could, unquestionably, be enhanced by downloadable content. That doesn't seem to be the question. Rather, the question seems to be whether devoting resources to the development downloadable content will be as profitable as moving those resources to the development of full retail games.

      For example, one of the additions under consideration is a true cooperative online multiplayer mode for VP - right now, all you can do is send and receive items. If they think that the time spent creating the additional game mode will generate similar (or, of course, greater) profit to that same time spent working on a new game (perhaps Viva Pinata 2: Paper Revenge?), then they'll go for the DLC.

      I find the whole thing quite reasonable. After all, Viva Pinata was not shipped incomplete as an episodic game might be - the game is perfectly good as it is. I'm enjoying the game right now (30 hours spent so far, and if I continue playing in an effort to secure all the pinata and all the achievements I could easily double that), so even if Rare never provides another download I'll feel good about my purchase and I'd probably go for a sequel.

      I'll note finally that if they continue providing more DLC like their first two downloads, I'll not buy any more. The additional content so far has been perfunctory, weak at best, even for a buck (I think on the XBL points conversion table they were $1.10 or thereabouts) a piece. Fortunately I got $10 off the price of the game so I don't feel ripped off...yet.
  7. Refusing the reality of virtual reality, huh? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The only funny thing about this is that M$ once spend $375 000 000 for that company.

    1. Re:Refusing the reality of virtual reality, huh? by The-Bus · · Score: 3, Informative

      Their problem was they paid $375,000,000 for the talent. The problem was the talent left. Rare got worse because all their decent developers left or were on the way out. It would've been smart to give key people some stakes in the success of Rare. That obviously didn't happen.

      Rare's original IP (Conker, Perfect Dark) is in no way worth $375,000,000.

      I don't know how much Microsoft paid for Bungie, but I guarantee you it was a better deal than Rare.

      --

      Small potatoes make the steak look bigger.

  8. Oh yah... by CaseM · · Score: 1

    We've got plenty of ideas for what we can do with downloadable content because Piñata is such a unique game...the team does still see the potential of Xbox Live and the push for downloadable content

    The only "leering" going on here is Rare into my wallet.

  9. Ooooooh by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Watching Rareware get leery... it's not very pretty I tell thee.
    Walking through town is quite scary... and not very sensible...

    1. Re:Ooooooh by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I predict a buyout?

    2. Re:Ooooooh by Kamineko · · Score: 1
      You've gotta wonder; what's left to buy? What 'is' Rare?

      The IP. I think all that Rare really has at this time is a whole load of IP. Mikey.S. won't let go of that without a fight... but has the Wii given Nintendo enough pocket money and gumption to make it a done deal?

  10. They Just Aren't Ready Yet by blueZhift · · Score: 1

    This is probably one of those, "got caught with our trousers down", moments. Companies that make statements like this have generally been caught off guard. Xbox Live has been enough of a success that not only is Sony developing their own similar service for the PS3, even Nintendo has come to the online downloadable content party with the Wii. As another poster mentioned, Rare's development cycle has simply grown too long to keep up with changes in the market and technology.

    --
    To the making of books there is no end, so let's get started
  11. NEWS FLASH: Company doesn't want to work for free by SalaciousPucker · · Score: 1
    Is this shocking to anyone? Why would you devote a team of developers to a game that is already finished? While a leisure activity, gaming is STILL a business. There are two things that will drive downloadable content:

    1) DIY, homebrew. Huge fans of a game or people with way too much time on their hands (depending on your perspective). The problem is there is a danger letting people write code for you machine. This would open systems to hacks or malicious content, so everything would have to be checked out.

    2) A viable market for add-ons or episodic content. They will build it if enough people pay for it.

    What would really be cool is a mix of the two. They should let people make percentage of sales for submitting add ons. Since the days of making a game in the garage are fading with the Cecille B DeMille budgets we are seeing....this would give kids today a chance to break in and also insure that mods are 'safe' to use. The sad reality here is the cost to make sure they are safe is probably not worth the pennies to be made from the mod-market.

  12. Pioneers get the arrows, settlers get the land by PingSpike · · Score: 1

    When was the last time microsoft actually paved the way and met with success? They only seem to succeed with their me-too-but-cheaper products. A headstart means something, buts a hell of a lot easier to watch some one else fall down 10 times and succeed and then copy them then it is to fall down 10 times yourself. I think there's an advantage to doing something first, but not as big as you would think. There's a reason patents exist, otherwise no one would do any research...they'd just wait for the other guy to do it and the copy it.

    1. Re:Pioneers get the arrows, settlers get the land by Programmer_In_Traini · · Score: 1

      you're mixing apples and oranges.

      First, I'll remind you that MS, *because* they were there first is now the biggest computer-related company. Gates also happens to be in the top 5 of the richest man - not sure if he is or not the richest man.

      I had wish you had taken another example than MS because i dont like the way they do things but you cannot take away the fact that whatever they did succeeded : The got the user base. meaning anyone wanting to get a PC now gets a PC with windows. Not so true in these days but back when the PC market was beginning to explode, who do you think was there to reap the profit with their "Disk Operating System" ? - then later with windows. Being a pioneer does pay. I'm not going to speak about how they acquired DOS or even how they acquired other company because im not sure i agree with all their tactics. BUT they were there first and they reaped all the benefits when people understood just how much a PC is useful. Then they made money with licensing and training so that developers could create applications that would run on their platform. because developers wants the largest user base possible. its not for an obscure reason that most companies do not develop games for linux - not because linux suck (IT DOES NOT!!!) but beacuse it doesnt offer a large user base like windows - not profitable. not something MS would have achieved by just watching torvalds open the way.

      everyone that responded to my post seem to think early means crappy or even faulty - but thats not true. just think about ..what was it... ID Software . they came up with a new genre of game : 1st person shooter with wolfenstein. Tremendous success right there. But not only because it was a new genre, but because the game was good. Then they made millions afterward with not only doom/heretic and rot but also by selling their 3d engine to other companies. they also made a bunch of cash for being paid to train other people to use their very own engine.

      I'm repeating myself but online content, downloadable content is here to stay, it has already proven its here to stay with all the consoles going online, with the hundreds of millions blizzard made with WoW, Warcraft and their XP, Diablo and the XPs...Starcraft. what about bioware ?? and the NWN online community constantly revamping the game. NWN is SO much a better game with all the latest addition (and XPs)

      As i stated in an earlier response, im very surprised that Rare even classified that as a risk because online gaming, updatable content is exactly what's in lately. just you wait until they come up with DDR on the PS3 where you can download new songs, and then tell me if downloadable content is any risk at all.

      but these... they're gonna work because they're good to begin with, and its what i keep telling, the game has got to be good to begin with. so, Rare, take your time, make a good game, solid. Then let me download fun stuff that will get me playing your game again and again.

      --
      If you look like your passport photo, you're too ill to travel. - Will Kommen
  13. Killer Instinct... by hrrY · · Score: 1

    Something tells me that if they decide to make Killer Instinct next-gen they'll have the interest and demand they seek by an exponent of no less than 10...please Rare please?

    1. Re:Killer Instinct... by Kamineko · · Score: 1

      Hahaha... I've personally talked with some of the folks at Rare, and the mere mention of porting Killer Instinct drives them to the brink of insanity.

    2. Re:Killer Instinct... by hrrY · · Score: 1

      Really?! Then why? That is hands down 1 of the best games(fighting) ever made, it would be an utter shame if it never came back:(

  14. Rare already did that. by Namarrgon · · Score: 1
    that is so lame. "we'll jump in the bandwagon only if we see other people are making money first"

    Don't forget, Rare already pushed that bandwagon a year ago - Kameo and Perfect Dark Zero both have quite a bit of downloadable content. A lot of it is themes and gamer pictures, but they also released extra maps, online co-op and new game modes, some of it months after release. Some of it was picked up, a lot of it apparently wasn't.

    I don't blame them for not rushing into it this time, especially after the reaction to downloadable content we've been seeing lately.

    --
    Why would anyone engrave "Elbereth"?
  15. Downloadable content nothing.The real moneymaker.. by Channard · · Score: 1

    .. is the seven pounds Microsoft charge to change your Gamertag. As I discovered when I tried to merge my pre-Live offline profile and my existing Live profile. That's as much as an X-Box Live Arcade game. Pure profit for something that takes their system two seconds to do.