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Advice For Programmers Right Out of School
ari1981 writes "I recently graduated from school with a CS degree, and several of my classes were very theoretical in nature. There was some programming, but it seems not as much as in other schools. I'm currently working at a company where I'm doing primarily c/c++ app development on unix. But as I read slashdot, and other tech sites / articles, and realize for some of the software being written nowadays, I would have absolutely NO IDEA how to even begin writing it. I remember first time I saw them, I thought console emulators were really cool. After my education, I have no idea how someone would begin writing one. With the work I'm doing now, it doesn't seem I'm going to be using (or creating) any of the really cool technology I hear about. How did everyone here begin learning / teaching themselves about different aspects of programming, that they initially had no clue about? How did you improve? Programming on your own? Through work?"
While this wasn't what pulled me into computing, it may be your addiction. Here's what I would suggest doing--take a well developed open source emulator (you know, like an NES emulator) and pick apart the source tree. You might find that the code is obviously doing some low level translation of the ROM which essentially changes its executable language to be IA32 or some such thing. It may be that you don't understand the architecture of the NES itself and therefor you can't really develop this yourself. So there's some insider information you lack but it will still be a good learning experience and may prompt you to figure out how to A) dump ROMs and B) reverse engineer a console architecture. Even if these are fruitless searches, how far you're willing to go will be a good indicator of whether or not CS is for you. Yeah, I hate to say this but I know people with CS degrees that simply don't have the debugging mentality to be programmers. A simple test is to think back to the times you saw something neat. Did you ever have a strong internal urge to find out how it worked or to try and modify it to augment its task?
Fear not your own ignorance. Only fear your acceptance of it. I am confident that if I wanted to build an emulator I could. I personally find other things more interesting but you just have to buckle down and really pick it apart and look for answers. As I said above, these emulators might have proprietary reverse engineering so these backwards black boxes might not be the best place to start as you may be met with frustration. On top of that, the newer consoles are now fighting a war & implementing encryption scheme which just makes the emulator all that more complicated. Why don't you pick a project like Firefox? Get the source, find out what the common developing environment is and step through the code when you visit a page. That's where it all starts.
Most importantly, you don't need to do everything from the ground up. It helps to know everything that's going on below the abstractions you sit upon but you don't need to think about that every time you write code. Learn to use libraries & frameworks. To quote Salvador Dali: "Those who do not want to imitate anything, produce nothing." I couldn't start writing an emulater either. But if I looked at the source trees and structures of the more popular ones out there, I'm damn sure I could figure it out. That confidence I have in myself is infallible and that's important to me. Sorry to sound like Dr. Phil but you asked for my opinion.
There are different tricks to different applications. Some are more simple than others. In my opinion, the less tricks you need to get started in a language, the better. Because we're not all world class magicians (although every language has some players that could rock your world in said language). This is why Java, while not as efficient as C, is probably taught to you first. There are very few tricks one needs to know in Java. But you know what? Java is still quite useful. Those responsible for implementing it did a decent job and now the web service programmer needs to know very little about them because configuring them has been abstracted and made easier by many UI & IDE tools out there. But web services are a very practical and widely accepted concept out there today. In fact, pay the bills by writing some very inane web se
My work here is dung.
If you want to be a coder...
write more code of your own
write more code
read more code
read LOTS of other people's code (DL a smallish OSS project at first, then larger ones).
rinse, lather, repeat.
If you're concerned that you're not learning "cool new things" on the job, learn them off the job. Your destiny is your own, as hokey as that sounds...
love your work.
Yes you do. You just don't know it yet. (Assuming your school wasn't out and out terrible.) There's a huge divide between theory and practice that every new programmer has to overcome. The best way to overcome it is to dive in and learn about the practical designs of today's technologies.
For example, you want to write an emulator. Many of the early game consoles were based on the 6502 microprocessor. If that scares you, it shouldn't. Read this webpage:
http://www.obelisk.demon.co.uk/6502/
It will introduce you to 6502 assembly. It explains not only the text commands you can use, but also the hex codes that will be output by the assembler. You can get an assembler like DASM and try it out for yourself. Try writing a simple program like: Next, run it through the assembler. Open it in a hex editor and you should be able to see the direct mappings between your code and the program output. If you target a specific platform like the Atari 2600, you can use an existing emulator with a debugger like Stella to watch your code execute line by line.
Remember, learning doesn't end when you exit school. It just begins. So start digging up everything from reverse engineered documentation to documents put out by standards commities like the IETF's RFCs, the W3C standards, and the ECMA standards. You'll gain a much greater appreciation for how things work after you take them apart and understand them.
Javascript + Nintendo DSi = DSiCade
No. Try not. Do... or do not. There is no try
You need to write a mountain of code before you reach the level where you can debate the finer points for or against C# / Java / Python / LISP... You will learn the most from your mistakes, so go forth and screw it up. Do it often. And then fix it. Each iteration will make you better, and remember it takes time.
www.jmagar.com
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" I would have absolutely NO IDEA how to even begin writing it. "
That's called 'fear' in the world of programming. Instead of digging into an open source project, or just jumping in and seeing what you could do, you turned away, and asked others to make it easy for you. Learn to recognize your fear, and you can master it.
All programmers feel it, some of the best just mastered it without ever thinking about it. None of us were handed this information on a silver platter. If you spent enough time in college to learn enough programming to be a master, you'd be retired when you were done.
The fastest way to learn programming is to jump in, not to go to school.
"If you make people think they're thinking, they'll love you; But if you really make them think, they'll hate you." - DM
1) Jump right back into school and get your masters. I did it. Zero regrets (Heading to my last final exam in a few hours... I haven't even graduated and the rewards are in plain sight, not to mention the rise in pay next review)
..
2) Reading - get books. Educate yourself. Self-starters are valuable.
3) Writing - don't just read, but practice by coding. It's the only way to learn. The more senses you invoke the more you comprehend.
4) Arithmatic - (depending on your field, but for 99% of them...) keep up on your math skills. Sharp math skills will make your job easier
I've been employed for a year, so I'm fairly fresh in the field but those are the things I've found and am taking to heart. They seem to work for me.
College teaches you how to learn. Once you realize that, your education truly begins.
Weaselmancer
rediculous.
A few suggestions:
1. Don't confuse "Computer Science" with commercial programming. They are NOT the same thing.
2. You will soon realize that coding is a far smaller portion of your job then you expect. The coding portion decreases as you move up the food chain.
3. Do not ignore the business/finance side of your job. The business side keeps you employed.
4. As you learn more, you will realize how little you actually know.
5. Your current position is nothing more than a software assembly line job. All of those "cool" technologies are being developed by more experienced engineers.
6. "Engineering" software and "programming" are more different than you realize.
7. Coding is the easy part. You can teach a cat to bang out code. It takes an artist to design good software.
8. You have one of the best jobs in the world. Your technology base allows *you* the ability to build wondrous applications. Use it!
9. Have fun coding. Make it a personal challenge. Reallize a job is just for paying the bills. Your much more free than you realize.
Good luck.
Calm down. I work in a cubicle as a programmer for a fortune 500. I completely agree with everything he said.
> I guarantee I'm a much happier person than you. Oh, by the way, go fuck yourself asshole.
That is by far the most contradictory statement I have ever read on slashdot. (and I've been coming here for many years)
"Piter, too, is dead."
There has only been one program ever written from from scratch, and that was "Hello World." Everything other program has been cut-n-pasted from that.
(Well, that's true at least from the advent of "high level" languages like "C", but it's probably true with respect to most Assembly programs too.)
Your Servant, B. Baggins
You DO realize that he got a Computer Science degree, right? Not a programming degree. I realize that the name CS is usually used today to tart up a programming degree and make it sound special, but a Real CS degree is much closer to a degree in Mathematics (and not applied math...) than it is to a degree in programming. It does sound like maybe what he was looking for was a programming degree, but it was his responsibility to figure out before he started whether his school offered CS or programming under the CS name. Asking for a refund would definitely not be appropriate here. Actually, if I went to a school that offered CS, and found I had a programming degree when all was said and done, I might ask for a refund then. But not when they say its CS and it turns out to actually be (gasp!) CS. That's like going for a Physics degree, and complaining when they don't teach you engineering. If my Physics profs tried to teach me engineering all the time, I'd be looking to transfer somewhere with a REAL Physics program. Not that there's anything wrong with engineering, but a) it isn't what I want to do, and b) it isn't Physics.
SIGSEGV caught, terminating
wait... not that kind of sig.
The most important decision to make now is "what do I want to do". It's a hard one, but start by looking into what field you want to go after? Game programming? Any that give you lots of money? IT?
Next thing you need to do after deciding that is start focusing on it. If you want to be a game programmer, start programming your own game. A company that hires you won't just look at your education, they'll look what else you've done, and a big bonus is "self starting". It doesn't matter if you don't know how to make a finished game or a finished project you can learn how to do the final stuff, and most of the time they don't care. What will matter is that you've designed something and worked towards it. In addition the code can show the employers "I know how to code".
If you want to go into IT start looking for work now. Anything you do outside of the field isn't going to help you too much in the long run, but be sure to learn as much as you can about networks and hardware for it (routers and so on, not just lan adapters). Try to learn Linux as well for IT, that might not help you but it's good to know it so you can work with networking apps with out dealing with the BS that Microsoft gives developers (dear god, what ever you do don't expect CSocket to be all you need for networking experience).
If you want to make money start networking. And I mean P2P.. Or rather that's person to person. Talk to people who can help you get jobs in major companies. You want a job in finance to make the most money the fastest.
Overall it's important to take a direction and start working towards it. The biggest mistake you can make is think your goal is to radical to start working towards it (something I had to learn.. Now I work at a video game company. What I always wanted to do.)
The second mistake you can make is undervaluing your skills. Don't take a job for 24K, even if they promise a pay raise in 3 monthes (finance, personal experience.) Demand 40K a year at the minimum. Short and simple that's the bare minimum you deserve and that's even low. If you're in a good job, you should be making more.
Also always be willing to move, that'll give you many more options, and don't be afraid to seek out big name companies to apply to. Nothing is wrong with apply somewhere expecting relocation expense. They should be provided.
Don't worry if you get into something and don't like it. You're still learning and no one expects you to be a good coder yet, school is to teach you the basics, they'll train you to be the programmer they want (or they arn't worth working for).
My experience has been that you MUST teach yourself... especially if you work for the big cubicle farms. Teach yourself so you become better, so you keep your skills current, so you energize your imagination, and so you can go elsewhere when your employer enters the BRED ("Beancounters Rule Every Decision") Stage Of Atrophy.
I don't know where the big cubicle farm comes into play, here. Working as an independent contractor has led me to the exact same conclusion. Always learn, ALWAYS teach yourself. It's pretty much ALWAYS worth it.
And don't limit yourself to Comp Sci, either. For example, I'm currently training to be a private pilot. Why? I don't know, and never do. It's fun, I like to fly, and having more skills and experience has always paid me well. One of the best things you can do is to spend a few bux at the local Barnes and Nobles on a subject you know little about. B & N is a goldmine of business plans, technology information, and income opportunities!
I've attended numerous business courses in salesmanship and capital investment. They've also served me well, and helped me identify a startup with real potential, and gave me the skills to sell my way into partial ownership of the company. (that's now growing by leaps and bounds)
Another example - I did some research into using PHP as a scripting language for an SMTP daemon. I wanted to do some dynamic proxying that I didn't see elsewhere. I got it to work, using PHP as a script under xinet.d on Linux. Although that original business idea went nowhere, I used that very same software code to build a daemon that today transfers many gigabytes of data in a distributed software database, with about a thousand daily users.
Having more saleable skills will always pay.
I have no problem with your religion until you decide it's reason to deprive others of the truth.
Well, I've been programming professionally for over 25 years, so ...
The real skill in programming is knowing how to break down a complex project into suitable pieces - top down modular design. The skill is not just being able to do this at all for arbitrarily complex projects, but being able to do it well - to select a breakdown that will be easy to develop and maintain, easy to debug, easy to modify and extend.
I really don't think there's any substitute for experience in learning this, since that's the only way it's really going to sink in and become second nature. The best thing you can do therefore is to practice, and push yourself with new challenges all the time. At work push to get on the most demanding projects, and out of work do hobbyist projects that push yourself too. When you switch jobs, don't shy away from switching industries and into new areas. You'll become a stronger programmer by being a generalist rather than a specialist, as long as there's also plenty of depth (don't skip around *too* fast).
What you're really learning via experience is a set of design patterns and approaches, so that when you look at new problems they will intuitively fall apart into "obvious" breakdowns. Nowadays it's fashionable to read books on design patterns, and that can maybe help, but I'd tend so suggest a more back to basics approach of just paying attention to the interfaces between your modules... A good modular breakdown is one that results in modules that may have a fair degree of internal complexity (but not too much - break it down further), but have simple/thin external interfaces. An overly complex module interface is often a sign of choosing a sub-optimal modular breakdown (you've drawn the dividing lines in the wrong place). Good modular design will also hide as much internal design as possible to keep things simple and flexible - if you've kept the interface simple and abstract, then you have more flexibility to change the implemenation.
I got a recent degree and know exactly how to start writing an emulator.
:-)
At most schools, Computer Science is mostly the study of algorithms. My school, however, had a degree called "Computer Science and Engineering." In this program, students learned not only algorithms, but also digital logic, electronics, and computer architecture. Students had to design an entire computer using basic digital logic components (by first building multiplexers, decoders from and/or/not gates). Then we had to write an emulator for a simple computer. Finally, we wrote a compiler/linker for the emulator.
FYI, the BSCS&E is a significantly harder program than the B.Arts in CS program. While we were taking extra physics and EE courses, the CS people were taking French, Theatre, and other easy courses that had real, live girls in them. We got the better education, sure, but I'm not sure it was worth it
A slashdotter who didn't build his own computer is like a Jedi who didn't build his own lightsaber.