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Scanners for Large Negatives?
Ironsides asks: "My family has a number of old negatives that we would like to digitize. While we could spend the cash and have them all turned into prints and scan the prints, we would prefer to scan the negatives directly. One other problem is that several family members scattered throughout the country also have collections that would need to be scanned in and we could not possibly pay to have them all turned into prints. Now, here's the catch: a sizable number (at least 100 hundred, possibly several hundred) are 1:1 negatives that are 4x5 inches in size (yes, these are very old negatives). Now, I've been looking at slide and negative scanners and unfortunately it seems they only go up to 2.3x3.5 inches (6x9 cm). Does anyone know of a high quality scanner that will handle such large negatives?"
Find your local reprographics/graphic arts service bureau. They'll do this no problems -- there is no better instrument for the job than a drum scanner.
you had me at #!
A friend of mine is a retired photography professor who does a lot of work on a 4x5 view camera. He's using an older Epson flatbed scanner. It has an illuminator on top, and a frame that can hold four 4x5 negatives for gang scanning. It comes with a whole set of frames to hold negatives of various sizes from 35mm to 8x10. His Epson model is discontinued, but it appears the equivalent would be something like the Epson Perfection V750-M.
Many of the Epson Flatbeds will take 4x5s just fine.
Gentoo Sucks
What does scanning old photographs have to do with DEC?
I don't know if I know my DEC history correctly, but what do scanners have to do with DEC?
Drum scanners are extraordinarily expensive. Much less expensive to use a flat bed scanner that has back illumination. Good discussion here: http://photo.net/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg?msg_id=0 032D0&tag=
Microtek has several good models out.
I think someone needs to schedule a meeting of Cliff and the clue-by-four; I think that he's under the impression that the "Digital" category refers to anything consisting of lots of numbers, and not the company.
In that vein, I think we should all have a moment of silence for the late DEC and its products. I'm still waiting to get my hands on an Alpha... one of these days, I'm going to find one at a hamfest or something, and then my life will be complete. (Okay, well not quite; I still want to own a working Data General Nova, somehow I think that's going to be a tougher find.)
"Ladies and gentlemen, my killbot features Lotus Notes and a machine gun. It is the finest available."
There are 4 you should consider and it all depends on the money you have .. btw 4x5 is medium format.. its not "ancient" but actually exists even today (w/ modern films)
.. this is a dedicated 35/medium/large format film scanner that does up to 6"x9. The general consensus is this is the best home scanner for negatives.
.. also somewhat expensive ($800,$500 or so) .. its flatbed does up to 4x5 at 6400 dpi
.. 4800 dpi scanner with an adjustable large/medium format negative tray (and 35mm as well of course) (about $300 or so)
.. the nikon 5000 is better at 4000 dpi however with old slides /negatives it will not really make that much of a difference ..
(1) Nikon 9000 , its very expensive ($1700 or so) but will give you a 4000 dpi / 16 bit scan
(2,3) Epson M-750 PRO or V700
(4) Canon 9950f
I have the 9950f and the nikon 5000 (the 35mm version of the 9000)
The main feature of these is they have some version of dust removal (which does not work on black and white btw), they all have color restoration if your negatives are pretty old and all the other good stuff.
The epsons are the ones i think the high end (modern) medium/large format people who aren't doing $100 per slide professional lab scans are using. I dont think you can go wrong with any of these. If you are only going to use this for the web and/or computer monitors (and not into tinkering with photoshop etc) I would get the 9950f as it is the most straightforward and cheapest. With medium format film (4x5) you can go to massive size prints even with a canon 9950f to be honest.
Epson make plenty of scanners for handling larger film stock. Since these negatives are probably black-and-white you could also consider X-Ray film scanners.
Try this (for B&W negs):
- Use a CanoScan 9950f or Epson v750*
- Get a registered copy of VueScan
- Scan at your scanner's max physical resolution for 6x6, and 1/2 max for 4x5
- Set white and blackpoints to 0.
- Scan at 16 bit depth greyscale, 2 samples, no sharpening, no dust correction
- Save as 16 bit Tiff
- Load your images in Cinepaint or Photoshop CS or Elements 4 or later
- Adjust the "Levels" to set your desired black and white points.
- Save this to your archive as a 16 bit tiff.
now, for each desired print or display size:* CanoScan models don't work on Linux; the Epson v750 may with Vuescan (needs libUSB and USB group access).
For the price that most service bureaus are going to charge to scan 'a few hundred' 4x5 negatives, he can afford a pretty nice flatbed scanner and transparency adapter that will almost certainly give this guy the results he needs. Unless these are really nice, professionally taken 4x5s, a drum scanner is just going to be spending most of its resolution investigating the finer points of the film grain. Not really very useful. That much resolution just isn't needed for older photos taken by amateur photographers, and which were meant to be printed out 1:1 onto fiber-based photo paper. If these were original Ansel Adams negatives, I'll take all that back...but if they're grandad's snapshots, 11000 lpi is just a waste of bits.
Actually, for the price that a service bureau would charge, this guy could probably go out and buy a used Imacon Flextight and then sell it at the conclusion of the project. The difference in quality between a good Imacon scan and a drum scan would probably not be worth the cost in this instance.
"Ladies and gentlemen, my killbot features Lotus Notes and a machine gun. It is the finest available."
I spent a lot more time than I had to because I scanned them all at 20MB raw image size (the jpegs averaged roughly 6MB each when I was done.) My intent was to keep good-quality archival copies of the slides. However, these large files meant that every action with them was slow: transferring them from the scanner via USB 1.2 took like 40 seconds per image, loading and saving them in an editor to rotate and crop them was slow, importing them into Arcsoft to produce the slideshow was slow, and so on.
Decide what you intend to do with the digital images first. Are you going to archive them as I did? Then accept that it will be slow. An archival quality scan of the medium format film that you describe will take hundreds of megabytes per image. But if you're just going to burn a DVD for the family and discard the scans as intermediate files, scan them at DVD resolutions and you'll save a ton of time throughout the process.
Invest in some good scanning software. The out-of-the-box stuff I got from Minolta was slower than molasses. It took it 20 seconds to autofocus each slide individually, and that was prior to the scan itself! I purchased Vuescan from Hamrick software and it sped the process considerably. They support many dozens of scanners, film profiles, etc. It automated the process of scanning a full carrier of slides. It was worth every penny to me.
Use a dust brush on each and every negative before scanning it. A cheap squeezy rubber-bulb brush will clean up most dust and hairs nicely, and they're only like $5.00.
Don't bother printing them unless you actually want the prints of the pictures.
Find a good program to help rotate and crop the images, clean up dust specks, and fix colors. I used Paint Shop Pro, and eventually got pretty fast at it. Later, I found RPhoto (freeware! on the web) that enabled me to whip through rotating and cropping at high speeds.
Figure out in advance how you want to organize the images you scan. I built a directory structure by year, and scanned the images in rough chronological order. If there is no organization to your media, be sure to take the time to tag them at some point in the process (probably the time you crop and rotate them.) Names, places and dates are all good searchable data. I used a short description for the file names, but I wish I'd edited the EXIF data when I had the chance.
Regarding medium format film, ask about flatbed scanners at a good photography shop. When I was shopping for newer film scanners, I found an Epson flatbed with a "negative attachment." It consisted of a backlight-box that had a snap-in film carrier on the bottom that would hold 2 five-frame 35mm filmstrips. You could remove the film carrier and use a larger frame to hold your negatives in place (the adjustable carriers that you use in enlargers to hold medium format film comes to mind.)
Once you figure out what you're doing, take a few minutes and write up an instruction sheet. You'll probably go stir-crazy after scanning a thousand frames, and you'll likely want to take a break for a few months. It's nice to come back to full instructions so you can pick up exactly where you left off.
Realize that this will take a lot of your time. Check with a commercial photo house and ask about their scanning rates. I was quoted from about $0.75 per slide to $1.20 per slide. Of course with over three thousand slides to scan I wasn't about to spend that kind of money, but I did spend several hundred on a Minolta Dimage film scanner, and many, many hours scanning. That's where the instruction sheet helped -- my wife picked it up and she started scanning in her free time, too! You might want to consider hiring a photo house to use a drum scanner just for your medium format slides, rather than tackle them yourself. You'll get the best quality scans
John
He did say a "high quality" scanner. While that's pretty vague, I just thought that I'd point out that if you wanted to go upmarket of the good quality flatbeds already mentioned, the next step before you get into drum scanning territory (real PMT-based drum scanners) and start seeing price tags that rival Italian automobiles, would be something like the Imacon Flextight, maybe a 343 or a 646. I have seem some 4x5 Provia scans done on one of them, and they're pretty amazing.
It all depends on what this guy's budget is, which he didn't really say. If the budget is in the hundreds, a flatbed is definitely the way to go. If it's in the thousands, an Imacon will allow for some real archival-grade scans (although preserving the digital files may be harder than preserving the negatives) and ridiculous enlargability.
"Ladies and gentlemen, my killbot features Lotus Notes and a machine gun. It is the finest available."
My brother has a Nikon LS 9000 ED film scanner. He bought it for doing 70 mm film. Check it out.
I second the Nikon scanner. I've used the smaller one for my film negatives, and it's produced some amazing stuff. The Nikon software also does a damn fine job of removing dust/scratches (if you want it to). With 35mm stuff, you can get a scan and postprocessing done in around a minute per slide, so you won't be spending all year doing this. This is what the parent is talking about. It's around $1700, but when you're done scanning those photos, you can just as easily scan in all 35mm negatives you've got. If you want, shoot me an e-mail (marcinjb [at] gmail) and I'll send you a few of the pictures I've scanned in so you can judge quality.
When I don't have access to an Imacon Flextight scanner, I just use my Epson Perfection 2450 Photo scanner. Backlit and holders for 35mm mounted slides, 35mm filmstrips, 120 film and 4x5. I think there are also some models that can handle 8x10 transparency scans.
My only complaint with the Epson is that my Polaroid Type 55 4x5 negs don't quite fit in the holder. (Anyone else dealing with that problem, or coming up with a solution, feel free to reply.)
This sig intentionally left justified.
So far, both of the high-rated responses have been correct -- you can either contact a commercial photo shop, and have the negatives scanned on a drum scanner (a $10,000+ piece of machinery, not incidentally), or you can do it yourself on a halfway-decent flatbed scanner.
Consider that even a low-end flatbed scanner these days can achieve 2000 dpi symmetric, which would allow you to print a 4x5 negative up to 26x33 inches at reasonably high quality (300dpi, which is enough for most uses). So the only question is, how big do you need to go?
There are other considerations than dpi, of course, but even a mid-range ($500-$800) scanner will have decent optics and color correction, and will be more than adequate for the job. Once you consider that most shops will charge you anywhere from $5-$40 per sheet to drum scan an negative, investing in a good flatbed scanner will quickly seem like a bargain....
Let's try not to let fact interfere with our speculation here, OK?
The infrared dust removal technique really works.
0 0BMk6&tag=
http://photo.net/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg?msg_id=
I'd go on a Vegan diet but the delivery time from Vega is too long. --brownkitty
No one would want a 50-meter bug hovering over their town. (or their face, depends on the image)
I am a professional photographer which uses a medium format camera and film.
For my scanning purposes I am satisfied with an Epson Perfection 4990 Photo flatbed.
It can scan negatives up to 8x10".
And btw, lots of people still use film and Large Format cameras. The quallity and
resolution you get from such a negative is unmatchable.
I recently did a conversion of a bunch of negatives and prints to digital format.
I originally looked into some of the various mail business where you ship them everything and they do it all to DVD and whatever else you want, they cost in the $.39-$.59 per print or negative and can easily be found with google. Too expensive and did far more then I really needed; besides they charge the same for print or negative.
You can purchase decent negative and print scanners in the $1000 range, various reviews can be found via google. Purchase the item and then sell on ebay to decrease your cost.
Check your local photo shops for prices. This is what I finally did for the negative, they did them for around $.10 each with no cropping,color correction,etc and I had to put similar negatives together. They used one of thoses $1000 scanner that you can purchase for home use.
For the prints I went with my casio scanner and did them, and they looked great, even ones taken on an old 110 film.
Finally get a copy of adobe photoshop elements 5, I hated all the previous versions but love 5. It works great for scanning and correcting the photos and then categorizing them with various topics. You can then produce various DVD/CD with cut screens,etc.
The Nikon scanner may be high quality, but it only goes up to 6x9 in size. If you were a pro photographer you would know that this size is in cm, not inches. When talking about film sizes, 6x4.5, 6x6, 6x7, and 6x9 are always cm. The sizes 2x3, 4x5, 5x7, and 8x10 are always inches.
There is no such thing as a "film scanner" that will scan 4x5 (inches). Anything that will scan a neg of that size will also scan a print, so you want either a flatbed or drum scanner.
dom
You will probably be served well by the Epson 4990. Go to Epson's website and check out the clearance center. You can get a 4990 for US$310. It can scan up to an 8x10 negative. Many, many film shooters use(d) this scanner.
I don't have one, but I have had some 2 1/4" x 2 1/4" (6x6) negatives scanned on a V700 at low resolution for web display. The scans came in at 13MB and I was not disappointed.
A service bureau will likely give you the best results for the overall effort and cost. Having scanned hundred of archival negs myself, I can say that any level of automation you can come up with is a huge time-saver. I recommend setting up an assembly-line process in a dust-free location for cleaning, scanning, colour-correcting, and handling the negs. Count on at least 5 minutes per neg. After doing the first few dozen yourself, you'll really see why a service bureau is appealing!
The AGFA T1200 is another flatbed which has nice colour and does a good job of large format negs. They've been discontinued for a while, but since they were a "pro" desktop model for graphic designers, you may be able to find one used somewhere. Unfortunately it lacks an infrared channel to "see" through dust and scratches (this is a great feature--my Nikon scanner has it).
For software, I wholly recommend VueScan (Hamrick.com). It's relatively cheap and it brings out the best in almost every imaginable scanner. I then use Photoshop to adjust color levels (it fades over time), adjust contrast and brightness, and sharpen (e.g. Unsharp mask). If your negs are all the same type and vintage, you may be able to batch-process them with good results.
Scan emulsion (dull) side down and mirror image it in software. If you scan emulsion side up (like the manual for my 9950f says to), the images often have nasty newton's rings.
I haven't had a newton's ring since I started scanning emulsion down.
Just one correction...the Nikon will only do 6x9, which is "medium format". The OP was asking about 4x5, which is considered "large format". One is in cm, the other is in inches.
And I wasn't suggesting BUYING one! If you re-read my comment, I suggested using a service bureau.
you had me at #!
see the specs. in appendix A
"Scanner type Transmission (film) 35mm to 4" x 5""
every day http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Random
If you can afford it, get the Nikon 9000. Sell it when you are done. I settled on using an Epson 4990 since I wanted the flatbed for other things. If the difference between a good flatbed and a dedicated film scanner matters to you, then get the dedicated. The film trays that come with the Epson 4990 work pretty well, but I got a better film carrier from http://www.betterscanning.com/ Takes a lot of the hassle out of curled negatives. Also. If you plan to post process your scans much, I highly recommend Photoshop with either NeatImage, http://www.neatimage.com/ or Noise Ninja, http://www.picturecode.com/ for removing noise. FocalBlade or FocusMagic, http://www.focusmagic.com/ has it's place too for some of pictures of interest. Post processing is going to be key in getting the best results from your scanning effort. Figure out what you are willing to live with, because it's unrealistic to scan every negative in at max resolution due to the size of the resulting file.
/ professional_scanners/default.htm
These are the machines that image archives use when dealing mass volume. It is
impractical to drum scan every slide/negative in an archive, and this is an excellent
compromise.
As mentioned in previous posts, the Digital ICE dust/scratch removal doesn't work on B&W film. Also Kodachrome color slide film may not work well with certain scanners when trying to use the auto dust/scratch removal.
B&W presents some challenges. You must scan at 16 bits/channel resolution, otherwise, B&W results will be too contrasty and lose shadow detail. It sometimes helps to scan as positives then invert the image in Photoshop. Secondly, flatbed scanners tend to be noisy. This can be offset by using a multiple-pass option. Four passes work reasonably well without taking a lot of time. Quite a bit of this noise can be dealt with via NeatImage or Noise Ninja as well. Since Digital ICE (available on the 4990) does not work with B&W, you will get a lot of dust. Resist using third-party dust reduction software since it seriously degrades the image. Just plan to Photoshop images you plan on printing.
If you are wanting to really get down and do some serious negative scanning, quickly (and cost is not restricting). Get a Creo Eversmart (now owned by Kodak) flatbed scanner. http://graphics.kodak.com/global/product/scanners
The main thing is to make sure your negatives keep protected. In another 10-15 years, the scanning capabilities will be much, much better. However, the people you want to enjoy seeing these scanned images might be gone! So it's best to use what you can and get the job done. Let the next generation scan again if they want it done better.
I'm not sure about 4x5, but a chain drugstore may be able to help you out. My parents took hundreds of 35mm slides to their local Walgreens, which sent them to Dallas for processing. Customer Service called them up to discuss the order and was very helpful. They got back the slides, plus a DVD containing all the scanned images and a video slideshow (ordered as submitted) that would play on a stand-alone DVD player. My parents even made titles by writing directly on unimportant slides inserted into the series.
For the transparencies you should use a backlit flatbed or if they're few enough hire out the work. Assuming most of your media is 35mm film, you probably want to get yourself a film scanner which has an automatic feeder so you can automate a significant amount of the scanning process. Some of them have slide feeders too.
My God, it's Full of Source!
OUTSIDE_IP=$(dig +short my.ip @outsideip.net)
Vuescan -- absolutely. Blows everything else out of the water.
Nikon LS-9000 -- I'm saving up to buy one now. But it won't work for 4x5 film.
Imacon Flextite -- certainly an excellent scanner, but the cheapest one that will take 4x5 is about $10,000 US.
For amateur use, I'd go with one of the Epson flatbeds. And by all means, buy a copy of Vuescan to drive it.
In times of universal deceit, telling the truth gets you modded -1 Troll
Actually, modern flatbeds have DMax ratings that are competitive with drum scanners. I used to be a drum scanner operator and I think drum scans are way overkill for large B&W negs, they are better for high rez scans of small color transparencies.
One thing I should point out: I'm a big fan of Silverfast scanning software, and they just released a new version 6.5 which has a multiscan technique, it's sort of like HDR for scanning. It does multiple scans of each row at different exposure settings, combining them for a higher DMax and better sensitivity to levels. The big thing that digital scanning has needed for a long time is increased levels, so I scan most of my stuff at 16 bits instead of 8 bits. This Silverfast rev is the first affordable software that does anything significant to improve level sensitivity and bring it up to the potential of 16 bit.
I also note that Silverfast works with ICC color profiles, and can be calibrated with an ICC target. This is the weakness of software like VueScan. VueScan is totally unsuitable for quality scanning, although it is good for bulk scanning of paper documents (which is not a very demanding task). It would be preferable to scan archival files with a calibrated system. VueScan cannot be calibrated, and has very poor manual control over levels. This is especially problematic with B&W negatives, which have no 100% transparent areas, there is always a slight density of gray (the "anti-halation layer").
This is a scan of a 4 by 5 inch chrome (positive) done with the Epson 4990 scanner. This is a crop of part of the center of the frame, if you click "original" you will see it at full pixels. The original scan is 11,105 by 8,737 pixels. The scanner of course also handles negatives quite well, and medium format. 35mm film scans are acceptable, but are much better with an inexpensive dedicated film scanner (which won't handle anything larger than 35mm.)
Please excuse the drop off in the top corners and the out of focus stuff, I should have stopped down more. It was one of the first shots I took with my clunky Crown Graphic 4x5 camera.
"Remember, there never were pineapple-almond cookies here."
You can get very good quality images of the negatives by photographing them with a good digital camera with macro capability. This will be *much* faster and easier than any sort of scanning. One click on "reverse image" in a good paint program will create a positive that can be printed directly. The only strict requirement is that the camera have a true macro lens (i.e. one with a flat field at very short distances). Lay the negatives horizontally on a light box, and mount the camera on a copystand, if available, or on a solid tripod with the camera pointing down. The better the optics, the better the resulting images. In the old days of film, I prepared many figures for publication in scientific journals by assembling individual prints into a montage and then photographing the montage. For the $1000 recommended in this forum, you can buy a *very* nice digital camera that you can use for all sorts of things, while the scanner will wind up in a closet.
Consider this a form of scanning - that'll keep this post on-topic, and hopefully avoid flames from scanner diehards.
Actually, I have one of these sitting around under wraps at home. I've been off at school and haven't had much time for nerdly side-projects, and so it's mostly just sat in storage. It's a DEC 300/800 'Flamingo II' I *think*, and it weighs an f***ing ton. I don't know how the hell I'd ship it to you, but if you'd like to give such a thing a good home, leave me a response.
I've been using multipass scanning on Vuescan from time to time for months, and multisample almost evey scan. Vuescan can indeed be calibrated if you have an IT8 target to calibrate the scanner with, and it can use a profile for your monitor. Colour calibration of the scanner doesn't matter that much for B&W negs anyways since you'll be applying curves anyways.
As for levels control, the job of the scanner is to get all the data from the film, which VueScan does. Levels and Gamma are a user decision in editing.
It sounds like you're comparing Silverfast pro to VueScan trial edition. The Pro versions of both are about equivalent in capability.
Let me re-state that then. Paying a service bureau for drum-scanner service is extraordinarily expensive.
(yup, that was me)
You are mistaken. VueScan's multipass mode does not increase accuracy of the tonal resolution. It does not do brightness multisampling, it only does multisampling on the image resolution. Yes, I have VueScan Pro but I never use it, I just updated and noticed they added the profiling.
There are a multitude of reasons why Silverfast is superior to VueScan, the biggest one is that VueScan's GUI is absolute crap. My personal favorite feature of Silverfast is the ability to set white-point and black-point directly on an image preview using an eyedropper, in VueScan you have to do this by dragging points on a histogram, it's terribly difficult to use and often can't set the curve to what I need. Manual calibration of scanner input curves is PARTICULARLY vital when scanning negatives, as the film substrate has a dense anti-halation layer that adds density to all of the image area. This must be precompensated or else you just end up wasting a significant portion of your tonal resolution, you can't just take the standard ICC profile, you have to set the white point to the gray of the antihalation layer. Sure you have to optimize the curves after scanning, but unless you precompensate and use the full dynamic range, you just end up with a posterized file with lots of gaps in the histogram. Garbage in, garbage out.
Grizly,
:)
Would you mind emailing me directly? If you think you might be interested in unburdening yourself of one, I do need a project for the winter...
"Ladies and gentlemen, my killbot features Lotus Notes and a machine gun. It is the finest available."
I have an epson 4490 that has a negative adapter for that size.
Any current flatbed that has a negative adapter will likely support 4x5. I believe Microtek has one too.
Look in Photography magazines.
It'll cost around $200-$300, or more depending on speed and resolution requirements. Take the time to learn to use the equipment; try photoshop elements for quick, painless adjustments.
At graflex.org we have used Microtek and Epson flat scanners. You do not need a drum scanner for your task.
You might try posting your question at there or on photo.net, or just reading the existing postings there.
And yes, you can still get 4x5 film. Try it out sometime!
Much less expensive to use a flat bed scanner that has back illumination.
I bought an Epson Perfection 3200 Photo scanner a couple of years ago. It comes with negative frames to hold the negatives at the correct distance off the glass, including the 4"x5" negative size you require. I don't know about newer models - this one has worked well enough for me.
That said, you will have to be prepared to spend the time to calibrate the scanner if you want to do professional-level colour work. For old negatives, your chances of getting a colour target for calibration on the same negative material is probably zero and you will have to do it by eye. However, I assume that your old negatives are black and white, so any calibration is pretty arbitrary!
Be VERY careful about dust. Clean your scanner glass plate carefully with non-scratch lint free cloths. I use a liquid lens cleaner to keep it near perfect - your local camera store will have appropriate supplies. A dust cover is also a good idea and don't keep your scanner in a bedroom - matresses spread dust around like it's going out of fashion. A blow-brush like the ones you would use for cleaning an SLR camera is also a good idea to blow the dust off the negatives. When you are scanning at 1600 or 3200 dpi, a small dust mote is a huge blot on your image.
Lastly, the Epson scanners are pretty much perfectly supported on Linux by the SANE software. That's the main reason I purchased this model. Epson gets some serious props for documenting and supporting Linux on it's devices.
Cheers,
Toby Haynes
Anything I post is strictly my own thoughts and doesn't necessarily have anything to do with the opinions of IBM.