Novel OS Drives the '$100 laptop'

jrwr00 writes with a link to a CNN story about the $100 laptop's unique operating system. We've discussed the OLPC's UI before but the article offers a few new piece of information on the project, which is expected to roll out this year. From the article: "The XO machines are still being tweaked, and [OLPC UI] Sugar isn't expected to be tested by any kids until February. By July or so, several million are expected to reach Brazil, Argentina, Uruguay, Nigeria, Libya, Pakistan, Thailand and the Palestinian territory. Negroponte said three more African countries might sign on in the next two weeks. The Inter-American Development Bank is trying to get the laptops to multiple Central American countries."

Comments

Novell OS? Whoops

[dreddnott]

I read this story on CNN first as well, and my first thought at seeing the headline was nightmares about a Novell operating system.

In any event, it doesn't really sound particularly novel to me.

Re:Novell OS? Whoops

[Kelson]

I read this story on CNN first as well, and my first thought at seeing the headline was nightmares about a Novell operating system.

Could be worse. I read through the whole article waiting for the point where they'd explain how SuSE was involved. Then I finally looked back at the headline and realized I'd misread it.

Re:Novell OS? Whoops

[rholliday]

Yeah, me too. I don't think "novel" is the best choice of adjectives in the OS world.

Re:Novell OS? Whoops

[Anonymous Coward]

The word "Novell" is never used in the story at all, with the exception of the title.

Re:Novell OS? Whoops

[Anonymous Coward]

In any event, it doesn't really sound particularly novel to me.

The people appreciate your opinion, your highness.

Most insightful thing I've read in a while

[fiannaFailMan]

From TFA:

"In fact, one of the saddest but most common conditions in elementary school computer labs (when they exist in the developing world), is the children are being trained to use Word, Excel and PowerPoint," Negroponte wrote in an e-mail interview. "I consider that criminal, because children should be making things, communicating, exploring, sharing, not running office automation tools.

Go on my son! Kids should be exploring, not training to become the paper-pushers of tomorrow. Computers have so much more to offer than that.

Re:Most insightful thing I've read in a while

[NineNine]

Where these kids are, they'll be lucky if they get to be paper pushers. I doubt that kinds in a modern developing third world country have a lot of education that's not vocational.

Re:Most insightful thing I've read in a while

[Mogster]

I agree entirely kids should be using computers to build and develop their imagination, not become fledgling cubicle monkeys

The $100 laptop hardware may be designed and destined for the 3rd world - but the interface could be put to use anywhere

Anything which allows kids to explore and extend their imaginations whilst learning should be embraced wholeheartedly.

Re:Most insightful thing I've read in a while

[Salvance]

I can agree that it's basically worthless to teach elementary school kids Excel and PowerPoint (or any spreadsheet/slidshow app) ... there's absolutely no reason for an elementary school kid to use either. While there's a small case for PowerPoint (e.g. photo slideshows), the alternatives are far better at fostering creativity.

Word processing is a different story. I feel that every kid should know how to write, and know the basics for writing in at least one word processing package. I'm not talking weeks of training, just how to open/save documents, how to change font sizes, bold, tabstops, etc. Probably a week of 45 minute classes for a kid.

Re:Most insightful thing I've read in a while

[griffjon]

Also, the OLPC has a target audience of 6-16 year olds. Sure, 6 year olds shouldn't be locked in to learning spreadsheets, much less Excel specifically, but, for the upper end of the spectrum, some actual marketable skills for the kids not interested in programming in Scratch or whatever other wonderful things might come out of playing with the OLPC, just might be useful.

Re:Most insightful thing I've read in a while

[Penguinshit]

Computers have so much more to offer than that.

Like inexpensive, never-ending pr0n!!

Re:Most insightful thing I've read in a while

[megaditto]

REUTERS:

After learning that the OLPC batteries are manufactured by Sony, the Palestinian Authority decided or order a few for their country.

The Saudi king, still not comitted, continued his enquirings regarding the laptops' support for the latest flight simulation software.

Re:Most insightful thing I've read in a while

[that this is not und]

Whoah. You have an absolutely Colonial attitude. Did someone brainwash you into becoming a British Corporal in 1920's India or something? Are you saving your money so you can go on a safari to Africa and give out hersheys bars to the 'natives'?

Good grief.

You're just a troll, correct?

Re:Most insightful thing I've read in a while

[1u3hr]

Word processing is a different story. I feel that every kid should know how to write, and know the basics for writing in at least one word processing package.

It includes Abiword, a very capable word processor.

Re:Most insightful thing I've read in a while

[djdavetrouble]

Little do you know that one of these kids has been chosen by by the matrix to be "The One",
and the OLPC project is an elaborate plan to locate and train "The One" for his ultimate battle......

Re:Most insightful thing I've read in a while

[Apotsy]

Ever been to sub-Saharan Africa? I have. I've seen Massai living in mud-and-cowshit huts out in the middle of the savanna. Everywhere you go, poor kids beg you for pens. Yes, pens, as in Bic. Having simple supplies for writing is a big deal to many people in the world. Maybe his attitude is "Colonial", but it appears to me at least to be based somewhat in reality.

Re:Most insightful thing I've read in a while

[Anonymous Coward]

I wish I had mod points.

Re:Most insightful thing I've read in a while

[that this is not und]

What he implied was that the kids were living in cultures where 'all the education is vocational.' Which is quite offensive. Children everywhere can learn more than a vocation. I am certain that there will be some very good fiction written on these machines after they're out and widely available. Good poetry, too.

Re:Most insightful thing I've read in a while

[Korin43]

Just what we need.. even more kids writing bad poetry and putting it on the internet. At least I won't be able to read it..

Re:Most insightful thing I've read in a while

[rohan972]

What he implied was that the kids were living in cultures where 'all the education is vocational.' Which is quite offensive.

What's offensive about it? When you have limited budgets to educate your children it makes sense to educate them in something that will enable them to earn money. Then they can afford better education. If you find it offensive that people live in such conditions I understand, but if you find it offensive to say that people live in such conditions you're just ignoring reality.

And yes, I'm involved in helping with education for poorer Africans. Many would like to have any education at all, even vocational.

Re:Most insightful thing I've read in a while

[chris1646]

I had the opportunity to speak with someone who has spent the last 35 years in a developing 3rd world country. I asked her what she thought about the OLPC and her response was that it might be putting the cart before the horse. Many of the children in these countries are so malnourished during the key developmental years they might not have developed the cognitive ability for the critical thinking skills necessary to benefit from a project like OLPC i.e. you can only ask What? but never Why? Additionally, the technology that is already present in these countries tends to break and lack the proper facilities to repair it.

Re:Most insightful thing I've read in a while

[Bert64]

Well, you shouldn't teach kids a particular package, rather teach them the concept of a word processor.
When these kids grow up, they will almost certainly find that the programs available to them or being used at places where they work, are completely different to what they used in school, especially since schools typically have computers that are a few years out of date anyway. As an example, we had wordperfect for dos at our school.

Better internationalization support than KDE?

[Anonymous Coward]

A laptop like this, meant to be used in African and Asian countries, will need to have excellent internationalization and localization support. Even just within India, there are a great number of languages and character sets that need to be supported.

Currently, KDE is generally acknowledged to offer the best internationalization and localization support of all the open source X11 desktop environments. GNOME has a greater percentage of applications translated, but many of the translations (especially of African and Asian languages) were quite rushed and are of a poor quality. The general consensus is that KDE does not have as much coverage as GNOME, but what is there is more correct and comprehensible.

In any case, we have to realize that it has taken years upon years of effort to get KDE to the excellent point that it is now, with regards to internationalization and localization. I have trouble believing that this laptop project could offer an alternate desktop environment offering the same (or better) level of support, with only a fraction of the resources of the GNOME project, let alone the KDE project.

Re:Better internationalization support than KDE?

[Wesley Felter]

If a country buys a lot of OLPCs, say 1M, that's $150M. I think they can throw in another million for i18n.

Re:Better internationalization support than KDE?

[psy0rz]

Most of the software they use will be created specially for this project, using python/pango/i18n. The minimalistic desktop environment focusses ONLY at the features that are needed. It also seems to use a lot of icons, so it probably doesnt need a lot of internationalization. I think this will be a very promissing project. I just spended an hour or so reading a lot of stuff at the wiki. A lot of the difficult work already has been done.

Quote FTFA

[dayid]

"It doesn't feel like Linux. It doesn't feel like Windows. It doesn't feel like Apple," said Vota, who is director of Geekcorps, an organization that facilitates technology volunteers in developing countries. He emphasized that his opinions were his own and not on behalf of Geekcorps. so we have: a) kernel b) operating system c) hardware vendor It doesn't feel like any of those? Wow.

Re:Quote FTFA

[dreddnott]

This would have been even funnier in 1998 or earlier, when b) wasn't even an operating system, but a hacked-in DOS shell.

Re:Quote FTFA

[4D6963]

This would have been even funnier in 1998 or earlier, when b) wasn't even an operating system, but a hacked-in DOS shell.

Can someone mod that fool down please? Windows 98 (or even 95) is not a standalone Operating System? lol, STFU

Re:Quote FTFA

[noidentity]

"It...feels like candy! Sugary candy!" I hope there are plenty of dentists in the countries this is aimed at.

Re:The "Stick Figure" icon sounds offensive...

[Kelson]

Not likely. But it does bear a disturbing resemblance to a pirate flag.

Where are the apps?

[guanxi]

Just because I like to repeat myself every time an OLPC story is posted, I'll ask again: Where are the apps for this platform? Can anybody name one app, accessible to end users (e.g., no recompiling required), that is compatible with the Sugar UI, mesh networking, low-end specs, and other unique features?

A platform exists only to run the apps, not visa-versa. BeOS was a great platform, too. Many excellent gaming platforms have failed, because they lacked apps (i.e., games). Linux desktop is getting nowhere, despite it's technical excellence, because it lacks key apps (i.e., Office). Pull a few key apps from MacOS X (e.g., Office, Photoshop, etc.) and see what happens to adoption.

And all those platforms have far, far more apps available than OLPC (just look at sf.net, download.com or cdw.com). I know OLPC runs a flavor of Linux, but no known Linux apps are compatible with the specs above (Sugar, mesh networking, etc.). Go into a shopping mall and give a random person an OLPC -- what would they do with it? Sure, it has some included apps, but that can't be sufficient to meet the needs of millions of kids with every need and in every environment imaginable.

I hope OLPC works out great, but I can't imagine anyone who has ever designed systems looks at this and thinks anything else but -- great platform, but for what applications?

Re:Where are the apps?

[QuantumG]

It comes with all the apps kids need to form open and interactive communities, and write applications for their own needs.

Re:Where are the apps?

[NineNine]

You're right, but I don't think that this thing was designed to ever do anything beyond what it does out of the box. It's primarily just a chat platform, which is supposed to be useful, somehow...

I can only imagine that Negropointe envisioned (after his own media attention, of course), that kids on opposing sides of local wars would IM each other and work things out, and that it would later be portrayed in a movie starring Keanu Reeves (playing Negropointe), produced by Jerry Bruckheimer.

Re:Where are the apps?

[BobNET]

Linux desktop is getting nowhere, despite it's technical excellence, because it lacks key apps (i.e., Office).

Bluh? Is OpenOffice.org that bad on Linux? Admittedly I've only ever used it on Windows and OpenBSD, and can't really compare it to Microsoft Office since I've never actually used that (mostly because I've never had to)...

Re:Where are the apps?

[uwog]

AbiWord. We have kicked abiword into a library, with the GUI stripped off. This allows one to build a GUI on top of it in python, like the rest of Sugar is. Seamless integration. This will be the writing Activity the children will use. Then we are working on special import/export filters for abiword to read/write the 'fileformat' of choice of sugar: crossmark. This will allow perfect integration with the Journal. Neat trick is that you can even embed abiword in mozilla to do inline editting.

Also, a collaboration plugin for abiword is being worked on, that will use the mesh infrastructure and sugar presence framework to find and communicate with other users. This will allow realtime collaboration on documents (for example, 2 or more children working on an assingment simultaneously).

So there you have an application that takes full use of the offered platform.

Re:Where are the apps?

[Nazgul_Cro]

OLPC can give kids Internet connection where they would usually have none.
Web browser is, overall, the killer app. The pure difference in being able to access the Web, and not access it is remarkably huge. By giving children access to Google, Wikipedia, Slashdot, and billions of other sites and web applications it is the single most useful tool a child could have. It also comes with RSS reader, chat, AbiWord and eToys along with several games.

Mesh networking is the point by itself, as its main function is not only to connect OLPC laptops together, but to also connect them to an Internet gateway, which will be provided by schools... This will have an overall effect of propagating Internet access through OLPC-targeted countries.

I just don't see what would children "need" Office and Photoshop for.

In developed countries, a child will have its computing needs satisfied already, by having access to regular computer. OLPC targetted child has no such privilege, and a difference between owning an OLPC laptop and not owning it will be huge.

Porting software to OLPC is not hard. While Sugar is the interface, it is still founded on X Window System, and it runs Python apps as well... And newer versions of OS will have more apps that are already announced.
Plus, judging a platform for not having enough software for it when it hasn't actually been released to its end-users yet isn't really fair. I predict it will create a very decent software library of its own, and that we'll see first of it quite soon after it goes fully public. It has happened to pretty much every platform around during the last 50 years.

Re:Where are the apps?

[Vellmont]

Where are the apps for this platform?

How about a web browser, or an e-book reader? Those certainly sound like important apps for learning. Or how about a scientific graphing calculator? Perhaps some interactive learning software? There's already apps that could be very usefull. Really the hard part isn't really the apps, it's the content and curiculum that're more important.

  Can anybody name one app, accessible to end users (e.g., no recompiling required), that is compatible with the Sugar UI, mesh networking, low-end specs, and other unique features?

You're asking the wrong crowd here as there's not many people on slashdot develop for, or familiar with this machine. Just because no one has given you an answer means very little.

Go into a shopping mall and give a random person an OLPC -- what would they do with it?

Huh? What does a random person in a shopping mall have to do with the needs of someone in a 3rd world country that's never even used a computer have to do with each other? I think you're really missing the point here.

Hardware has always suffered from a chicken/egg problem. You need interest in the hardware to generate interest in developing software, but you need available software for the hardware to do something.

My guess is the hope is that more specific apps will be created for the purposes of learning. But using a pre-existing OS will bring enough apps that're already available for Linux to make the thing usefull from the start. Personally I'd be more worried about the curriculum and infra-structure for kids to learn how learn from these things.

Re:Where are the apps?

[Starji]

How about Opera?

http://people.opera.com/howcome/2006/olpc/

Re:Where are the apps?

[DragonWriter]

Go into a shopping mall and give a random person an OLPC -- what would they do with it?

Last I checked, the target market for the OLPC was not "random people in shopping malls".

Sure, it has some included apps, but that can't be sufficient to meet the needs of millions of kids with every need and in every environment imaginable.

Correct. Many things that children might conceivably want out of a computer will not be provided by the OLPC. It will not be a game platform to rival the PS3, for instance.

Its an educational tool being marketed to national ministries of education with a common application set being developed focussed on that market, optional accessories (like the satellite downlink system and donated satellite time) related to the role it is envisioned filling in providing a system for delivering educational content.

That it is also a general purpose computer for which other existing applications can be adapted and new applications developed is, of course, a bonus for its capacity to be adapted to different environments and to its ability to be supported and customized apps provided by the large institutional purchasers to whom it is being marketed (or third-parties), but its not being marketed as a general solution to all conceivable computing needs (which, at its price, shouldn't be a surprise), or even a general competitor to existing desktop and laptop commodity computers for mainstream use (which, again, given its price, shouldn't be surprising.)

Re:Where are the apps?

[muszek]

By giving children access to [...] Slashdot [...]

... you give them one-in-a-lifetime opportunity to learn how to calculate maximum amount of pr0n that fits on any cutting edge storage devices.

Re:Where are the apps?

[asuffield]

You have to realise that this is not a "computer" in the sense that you think of one.

This is an abnormally large cellphone. Its feature set is roughly equivalent to what you'd find on a modern 'smart' phone.

They don't market it like that because you'd have a hard time justifying giving free cellphones away to kids as a way of improving their lives. They sell it as a 'laptop', even though it really isn't what people think of when they use the term. It could never survive in a free market - this is a monopoly-based device. Like any device targeting a monopoly market, it is less than ideal.

Frankly, I think the OLPC project's vision is rather small. It could have been so much more.

But hey, you know what they say - give a man a fish, and he'll be fed today. Teach a man how to fish, and he'll sit in a boat and drink beer all day. For some reason, people think that is an appropriate objective, and aim no higher.

Re:Where are the apps?

[1310nm]

This "mesh network" idea is pretty pie-in-the-sky for the technically barren regions the idea is being pushed on. Is someone going to establish transponders or regenerators, bridges, etc for Internet access? If so, there's going to be much better 802.11 coverage in Africa than we have here. How far away are the schools? Does anyone even know if the schools are going to participate? Sometimes I think a bag of rice would be better spent on these areas than air dropping pastel, wind-up computers.

Re:Where are the apps?

[wall0159]

Where are the apps for this platform?

The OS is Linux, so it will run anything that runs on Linux (subject to computing power, RAM, etc).

no recompiling required

There will (hopefully) be hundreds of millions of these machines. I think someone can make binaries for the kiddies if they want.

Linux desktop is getting nowhere, despite it's technical excellence, because it lacks key apps (i.e., Office).

Ahhh! so you really mean commercial applications. I don't see why 'perfect' compatibility with Word documents is so important to children.

Look - it comes with applications: Broswer, RSS reader, text editor, and others. And it has a compiler, so kids can write their own applications. This computer is about liberating these kids, and giving them computer expertise - it's not about making them consumers of software. Difficult to understand, I know.

I like to repeat myself every time an OLPC story is posted

Well, saying the same thing many times doesn't make it more true or relevant.

Re:Where are the apps?

[DragonWriter]

This "mesh network" idea is pretty pie-in-the-sky for the technically barren regions the idea is being pushed on. Is someone going to establish transponders or regenerators, bridges, etc for Internet access?

The point of the mesh networking is to enable certain network applications without a persistent connection to the internet, but yes, a company has developed and will be making available a satellite earthstation designed especially for rural village and donating satellite time to provide internet access to accompany the OLPC project.

Does anyone even know if the schools are going to participate?

The purchasers of the laptops in the involved countries are the national ministries of education, who tend to be the people that run the schools. One might surmise, then, that the schools will participate.

Sometimes I think a bag of rice would be better spent on these areas than air dropping pastel, wind-up computers.

And, if you want, you are free to send a bag of rice to any region you think needs it. There are even many charities that you can contribute to that will take care of most of the logistics of providing food aid for you, so you just can give them money. OLPC will continue working with interested countries to develope and deliver educational tools that both the people behind OLPC and the countries to whom they are being sold, rather than air-dropped as unilateral gifts, believe will be useful to those countries educational systems. The two kinds of projects are not opposed to each other.

Re:Where are the apps?

[JoshJ]

There are several very good calculator programs on Linux. But with all that you said about learning, I'm curious why this project didn't work together with Edubuntu in the first place.

Re:Where are the apps?

[Louis Guerin]

by Starji (578920) Alter Relationship on Friday January 05, @09:38AM (#17467654)
How about Opera?
===
Yeah, because proprietary software is what this project is all about.

L

Re:Where are the apps?

[megaditto]

This laptops are for CHILDREN, you sick fuck.

Re:Where are the apps?

[marcello_dl]

> Is OpenOffice.org that bad on Linux?

It's not. BTW, at work i prefer to access our SSL web app using a 400 mhz ubuntu spare box instead of the 3ghz windows workstation as the former is more responsive. Workstation is probably borked after one year of installation and running a handful of non-pirate apps, with av and firewall for the whole subnet. If they won't go with linux next time we have to upgrade i'll push for macs.

Re:Where are the apps?

[Cal Paterson]

And it has a compiler, so kids can write their own applications.

Perhaps a little ambitious, considering these children are probably seeing a computer for the first time.

Re:Where are the apps?

[Vellmont]

I'm curious why this project didn't work together with Edubuntu in the first place.

Different hardware requirements. The OLPC is a specific piece of hardware with lower memory, disk space, and a specialized screen.

Re:Where are the apps?

[1u3hr]

Where are the apps for this platform? Can anybody name one app, accessible to end users

http://wiki.laptop.org/go/Software_components

Applications on B1
a web browser built on xulrunner
a simple document viewer based upon evince
TamTam, a music synthesis tool
Memory, a musical memory game written in Csound that exploits the mesh network
eToys (see above)
PenguinTV RSS reader
Abiword, a word processor
a simple application to demonstrate the camera by putting its video onto the screen.

Applications (and ports) under development for B2
Any of these applications may not be available in time for B2, or necessarily preloaded onto the systems.
a journal
a wiki with WYSIWYG editing, using Crossmark as its markup language
OpenDocument Viewer to read documents in OpenDocument format, a highly-compressed format that is a fully open international standard (ISO 26300)
VIM, a text editor
Helix, an open-source multimedia environment
other video tools, such as a video wiki
an image map tool
OLPCities, a virtual world programming environment
FACIL, a webpage editor developed to be used by children. (In English at http://wiki.laptop.org/go/EASE)
Musical Editor, a music composition toolkit
Drawing Workshop, a shared graphics space
some other simple graphics software, perhaps based upon tuxpaint
a Tetris-like game that exploits the mesh
chat, serverless linux instant messenger http://cspace.in/ , VOIP, email
a shell and debugger

Re:Where are the apps?

[chromatic]

Sometimes I think a bag of rice would be better spent on these areas...

Perhaps you should learn something about Africa then.

Re:Where are the apps?

[smoker2]

Why don't you try it for yourself ?

Then you can have an opinion.

Re:Where are the apps?

[that this is not und]

These machines are targeted to be communications tools, e-books, etc. They are not general purpose computers in the sense that we have come to think of.

Re:Where are the apps?

[KillerBob]

Just because I like to repeat myself every time an OLPC story is posted, I'll ask again: Where are the apps for this platform? Can anybody name one app, accessible to end users (e.g., no recompiling required), that is compatible with the Sugar UI, mesh networking, low-end specs, and other unique features?

It's Linux. It's running on a 500MHz Geode processor, which is 32-bit x86 compatible, and 128MB of DDR266. If you replaced the 512MB Flash drive with a suitable hard drive, you could run Windows XP on it. The machine isn't *that* anemic, and since it's running a heavily customized version of Fedora Core (and by customized, it's most likely in the form of stripping comments from libraries, and taking the Zen approach to OS design in having one app per task, and by picking apps that are generally lightweight), I sincerely doubt that there's going to be any trouble finding apps for it. It supports USB removable storage, so you could probably run apps like Firefox, OpenOffice.org, or GIMP on it, too. And the display is reasonably high res, too, at 1200x900.

A platform exists only to run the apps, not visa-versa. BeOS was a great platform, too. Many excellent gaming platforms have failed, because they lacked apps (i.e., games). Linux desktop is getting nowhere, despite it's technical excellence, because it lacks key apps (i.e., Office). Pull a few key apps from MacOS X (e.g., Office, Photoshop, etc.) and see what happens to adoption.

Hmm. It lacks MS Office, yes. But there's ways to run it if you really need it, through systems like Crossover and Wine. There's also counterparts to everything you mention. I prefer GIMP to Photoshop, both in feature set and interface. There's alternatives to MS Office that are far superior from a technical standpoint, too. There's a reason that an increasing number of organizations are migrating away from MS software.

You can't even throw gaming in its face, actually, because the laptop in question doesn't have the juice to run any modern games, regardless of what OS it's running. Quite aside from the fact that gaming is quite possible under Linux. Just this afternoon, I was playing GuildWars, and I played some Oblivion yesterday on my Linux-based gaming rig.

And all those platforms have far, far more apps available than OLPC (just look at sf.net, download.com or cdw.com). I know OLPC runs a flavor of Linux, but no known Linux apps are compatible with the specs above (Sugar, mesh networking, etc.). Go into a shopping mall and give a random person an OLPC -- what would they do with it? Sure, it has some included apps, but that can't be sufficient to meet the needs of millions of kids with every need and in every environment imaginable.

I hope OLPC works out great, but I can't imagine anyone who has ever designed systems looks at this and thinks anything else but -- great platform, but for what applications?

It's Linux. There's no shortage of apps for Linux. Besides which, I'm willing to bet that an overwhelming number of computer owners only use them as glorified typewriters. They do e-mail, they surf the 'net, they do some basic word processing, and that's about it. Gamers make up a pretty small portion of the computer market by comparison, and that's even a non-issue, since the OLPC doesn't have the power to run most modern games. All the OLPC needs to be successful is to fill those niches, and from what I've read, it's going to do that.

You'd do well to read this: http://wiki.laptop.org/go/Software_components

Re:Where are the apps?

[smoker2]

I also mirrored the XO vmware image here.

~ 140MB

Re:Where are the apps?

[Anonymous Coward]

Yes, so what's your point?

Re:Where are the apps?

[guanxi]

To respond to everyone at once; I see the following responses, beginning with the most interesting:

1) The web browser is really the app platform -- it provides access to all the hosted Internet apps (gmail, etc)

Interesting, but two concerns: Will the OLPCs have reliable enough Internet connections and will they have enough horsepower to run modern hosted apps (e.g., AJAX, Java, etc).

2) It's not designed to be a general purpose laptop, it's a communication appliance with a few apps

This answer really solves the problem by reducing expectations: There are few apps because that's what was intended. It's a feature, not a bug. Still, I can imagine that someone has a creative vision of how it will still provide great benefit to the users.

3) It's running on (modified) Fedora so it's Linux, and thus can run any Linux app.

Obviously, as some others have pointed out, end users cannot port Linux apps to the OLPC. Even if they could, the mismatched GUIs (the ported apps would not fit the Sugar UI) would be very confusing for end users (who won't be writing Python interfaces, a la Abiword), and then there would be compatibility problems with the other unique features (e.g., the networking) and the laptop's minimal specs. I'm sure apps can be ported, but there are none (or very few) now.

4) Opera

Good to hear, but it doesn't really solve the problem by itself.

5) Users won't need more apps than what's included

That also solves the problem by reducing expectations. But it is also very unlikely: Have you ever seen someone use a computer without installing additional software? Everyone's needs are provided for on one small hard drive?

6) OLPC will provide all the needed apps

The OLPC crew, no matter how talented and dedicated, cannot provide even a fraction of the apps needed by their millions of diverse customers. It takes a large segment of the worldwide IT industry, with all its successes and failures; its massive labor force, talent and capital; to deliver such things for the Windows platform -- and I still can't find good products in some categories. The OLPC group will do it all by itself? I'm sure many entrepreneurs, venture capitalists, market researchers, and corporate R&D departments would like to know the algorithm for so perfectly divining, anticipating and delivering on peoples needs.

Like any platform, they need many, many developers. There is no substitute. If the open source community wants to help, stop arguing with me, recognize the problem , and start porting apps (and providing tools to port apps).

6) The kids can develop their own apps

Why not just send them parts to build their own computers?

Re:Where are the apps?

[jackbird]

My first interaction with a computer was programming an Apple II. I was six. Granted, I didn't need a compiler, but I certainly wanted one before leaving elementary school.

Re:Where are the apps?

[Jimithing DMB]

My first experience with a computer was one that I programmed in BASIC at the age of 5. I'm sure there's plenty of other Slashdotters with a similar experience. It's not unreasonable to think that some children in a third-world country might have the talent for programming.

The only problem I see is that without access to decent tutorials and documentation it is hard to learn programming. Perhaps what's on the internet will be enough but perhaps not. In my case I had the Hands-on BASIC for the IBM PCjr (ISBN: 0070491690) book as my starting point. Wish I still had a copy of it. I remember it being really easy to read and follow and I was a child at the time.

Re:Where are the apps?

[swillden]

Perhaps a little ambitious, considering these children are probably seeing a computer for the first time.

Bah!

*Most* geeks who started playing with computers before the mid 80s or so were first exposed to computers that came with no software other than a BASIC interpreter. And guess what? We found them absolutely fascinating and had lots of fun creating little programs for them.

My own first exposure to computers was with a big teletype connected to a University mainframe via an acoustically-coupled modem in fifth grade (1979 or thereabouts). The very first thing I ever did on a computer was:

10 PRINT "HELLO SHAWN"

The next thing, of course was to add

20 GOTO 10

And watch that teletype shake for a few seconds until my teacher reached over and interrupted my program. DAMN was that FUN!

My next exposure to a computer was a TRS-80 at a friend's house (1981, IIRC). It had no disk or tape drive, so I spent hours typing in programs from printouts in magazines. Games, mostly. We'd play a game for a couple of hours and then spend five hours typing in the next one. I never wanted to go home.

Next my dad bought me a Timex Sinclair 1000, and I started writing my own little games.

My TI 99/4A gave me the chance to write programs that drew rainbows on the screen, and said stuff using the voice synthesizer add-on module.

I could go on, with the Commodore 64, and then the first PC (A Leading Edge XT-compatible) but the point is that the common thread through all of my first computing experiences was that the computer didn't do a damned thing until I programmed it (the PC had my dad's accounting software, but that didn't interest me). And I think my early computer experiences were vastly more rewarding because of it.

I think it's simply fantastic that millions of kids in third-world countries will get to experience something similar. It wouldn't surprise me a bit if this project causes Africa and South America to become the next generation's software development powerhouses. Their kids will almost certainly code circles around mine (though mine *are* learning Python, when I make them stop playing games).

Re:Where are the apps?

[CommandNotFound]

Perhaps a little ambitious, considering these children are probably seeing a computer for the first time. Shows how times have changed and expectations have altered. I cut my teeth on a TRS-80 Model III and Model 4. After playing with the crude productivity apps for about three minutes, I immediately began learning to write simple programs in BASIC. I had much fewer resources than are available via Google or Barnes & Noble today; essentially the owner's manuals that had some primitive tutorials. I recall a few years later when I got my Tandy 1000 PC with DOS how cool it was to finally have a real programming book at my disposal (Big Blue BASIC).

Nobody in my family knew anything about computers, and I was in a small town in a rural Southern state, so no bicycle trips to Stanford for me.... It's funny remembering the lengths I went to get information. I joined a local computer club mainly to get access to the freeware collection of about 1500 floppies. I used Tandy's PC-Link to download information in short bursts because it was long-distance $0.14/min at 1200 baud... non-trivial cost in 1987.

My point is, if a child wants to learn something, it is surprising how far they will stretch the little resources they have. These kids will have loads of docs and tutorials, and a decent language (Python?). I used to question the OLPC project because lots of these kids may need more basic needs, but I've come to understand that some portion of these kids will be able to crawl out of poverty with the skills they will teach themselves. It may be a small percentage, but I think it will be greater than zero.

Re:Where are the apps?

[1310nm]

How insightful.

Re:Where are the apps?

[QuantumG]

Ya know, back when I was 11 years old, I would have given all my pocket money and done weeks and weeks of chores just to be able to write BASIC on one of these things. These kids, who have never even seen a computer before, will get to code in Python/Smalltalk, browse the web, talk to their neighbours, and write a blog..

Re:Where are the apps?

[CronoCloud]

(though mine *are* learning Python, when I make them stop playing games).

Check to see if they've installed PyGame/Livewires/SDL. You never know, they might be learning Python to make games. :-)

Re:Where are the apps?

[Anonymous Coward]

You are arguing like you don't care about other people's replies, you are just pulling out ones to support your arguments.

First off, "killer" applications: text editor and browser.

Even something that can display simple HTML is a big plus to not having access to the Internet at all. You don't seem to understand that there is a lot of compromises that have to be made here. There's cost, physical/environmental conditions, the purposes it is being used, etc.... You should think of these machines more as educational tools, rather than a multi-core multimedia centre/game machine. Do you really expect these machines to have the power to decode next-gen hi-def videos? What exactly did you think these machines are for? They are supposed to be quite cheap and affordable, even for 3rd countries.

As for running Java/AJAX, etc... so you think that having access to internet without Java is worthless? might as well have nothing at all? what is your point here?

Another thing here, if this thing goes as planned, automatically there's going to millions of users. So perhaps the commercial value may not be as high per head, it's a huge market nevertheless. Linux initially wasn't developed for its market values. Once people have better idea what applications are needed, you can be sure that there will be applications ported to/written for it.

You want a whole suite of applications, covering every conceivable use for people in developed counties with decades of computer experiences, ALREADY written/compiled/ready to be used for a platform on a first gen machine that has not been field tested, has significant limitations and designed for educating kids in third world countries?

"If the open source community wants to help, stop arguing with me, recognize the problem , and start porting apps (and providing tools to port apps)."

"Why not just send them parts to build their own computers?"

These two quotes just shows you are trolling.
Your arguments are _ALL_ based on "if we can't have _EVERYTHING_, there's no point having anything.".
You are nuts. Or extremely short-sighted. Or both.
If you think this should be done another way, state your ideas, not drivels like these.

Re:Where are the apps?

[repvik]

Not really. Many of my friends who got a C64 were programming in basic within a couple of weeks. Granted, the learning curve of c64 basic wasn't too steep. But for a determined child, learning to program in C (given a pointer to documentation), won't take long.

Re:Where are the apps?

[zsau]

Is more info available about this? (webpage, mailing list, source or something?). OLPC (and this version of AbiWord) sounds awesome but I don't know anything about it...

Re:Where are the apps?

[uwog]

Get AbiWord CVS HEAD (see http://www.abisource.com/developers/), and compile with --enable-libabiword. The get the abiword python bindings from our CVS as well (module pyabiword). Compile and install those as well. Finally, in the pythons module, there is an example directory. Look at that. As for the OLPC AbiWord activity, it is in OLPC's git repository: http://dev.laptop.org/git.do?p=projects/abiword-ol pc;a=summary

Re:Where are the apps?

[value_added]

A platform exists only to run the apps, not visa-versa.

Ah, yes. The computer as toaster paradigm.

Re:Where are the apps?

[Anonymous Coward]

>Go into a shopping mall and give a random person an OLPC -- what would they do with it?

Replace the default distribution with Gentoo?

Re:Where are the apps?

[wellingj]

Can anybody name one app, accessible to end users (e.g., no recompiling required), that is compatible with the Sugar UI, mesh networking

I'm not shure how much recompiling would be required.
The AMD Geode processor is x86, it's just slower for power consumption reasons
And I'm willing to bet that the mesh network can be used just like eth0.
After All when people use Bluetooth for the internet (pand) it acts just like any other interface.
I think you need to take a look at how GNU/Linux works (on any platform) before you start freaking out.

Re:Where are the apps?

[swillden]

(though mine *are* learning Python, when I make them stop playing games).

Check to see if they've installed PyGame/Livewires/SDL. You never know, they might be learning Python to make games. :-)

I installed Livewire for them. I think it's great if they're learning Python to make games. That's certainly how I started.

Re:Where are the apps?

[howlingmadhowie]

now this may come as a surprise for you, but it is possible to modify existing code so it can be compiled on a different system. yes, it is a weird concept, but microsoft office did not exist when the universe was made, and neither did windows. both were written. the ability to write or adapt software has not yet died out completely.

Re:Where are the apps?

[zsau]

Cool, thanks; will poke at it when I get a chance.

Re:Where are the apps?

[tfinniga]

Hardware has always suffered from a chicken/egg problem. You need interest in the hardware to generate interest in developing software, but you need available software for the hardware to do something.

Quoted for agreement. If I could get my hands on an OLPC, I would be writing software for it. Here's hoping that some make it into the north american market, even if at $200 or whatever. I imagine after they hit, it won't take long for a ton of software to be out there.
Also, to the grandparent poster, see the earlier post about opera running on an OLPC.

Re:Where are the apps?

[Anonymous Coward]

Why is it that, every time /. runs a story on the OLPC, some morons feel obliged to demonstrate their ignorance by equating "countries where the average family can't afford a PC" with "countries where kids are starving to death".

Have you checked the GDP per capita of some of the participating countries? Argentina $14838, Tunisia $8255, Costa Rica $11400, Egypt $4317, Uruguay $9900.
Granted, Nigeria's in there at $1188, but, by and large, we're talking second world countries here, where most people eat adequately.

Re:Where are the apps?

[Andy Dodd]

"Sometimes I think a bag of rice would be better spent on these areas than air dropping pastel, wind-up computers."

I'm probably going to butcher this quote quite a bit, but you should get the idea.

"Give a man a fish, he is fed for a day. Teach a man to fish, and he is fed for life."

Re:Where are the apps?

[zero_offset]

Sweet, I didn't realize the laptops also float. :)

Re:Where are the apps?

[phaggood]

> when I was 11, I would have given all my pocket money and done weeks of chores [for a machine like the OLPC]

When I was 14, I saved up all my paper-route money for months to buy a Vic20, which, if I recall, did not have access to the Internet, a GUI, Python, onboard storage, or built-in color screen. Still I grew up to become a software developer making a very good living for myself. So, who knows what these kids will be able to do with this platform?

Viva la OLPC!

Where can I find the "Sugar" Windowmanager or DE?

[poopie]

Surely, it must be possible to build the same "Sugar" interface on any full install of a moder Linux OS... Where are the OS packages? Where is the SVN respository?

Re:Where can I find the "Sugar" Windowmanager or D

[DragonWriter]

Surely, it must be possible to build the same "Sugar" interface on any full install of a moder Linux OS... Where are the OS packages? Where is the SVN respository?

Look at the OLPC wiki.

Re:OLPC Sucks

[Rei]

Sometimes I doubt your commitment to Sparkle Motion.

Most underinstalled thing I've not used in a while

[Anonymous Coward]

"Go on my son! Kids should be exploring, not training to become the paper-pushers of tomorrow. Computers have so much more to offer than that."

Guess that means they'll not be running OpenOffice on these computers?

The 'Novel' part scared me a bit

[pembo13]

For awhile there I thougth devs had totally changed their mind on things and were going to use Suse as their upstream distro instead of Fedora. Not that I have anything agaist Suse...just Novel, the tech. company.

Re:The 'Novel' part scared me a bit

[Anonymous Coward]

uh...the company that you're probably thinking of is Novell, not Novel.

Re:OLPC Sucks

[Ash Vince]

Then ask Sony to make the batteries for it.

So how does Novel Fit in?

[Anonymous Coward]

Ironic that everything in the article says Red Hat except the title. Is Novell even a part of this project or am I mistaking the title? Is it just saying its an interesting idea?

Re:So how does Novel Fit in?

[dreddnott]

I can't believe I am admonishing an Anonymous Coward for reading the summary and the article but not the first post and its thread...

But here goes: shame on you, and the poster above you too!

"Novel" here means simply new or unique, a fresh way of doing things, a word with very positive connotations. Small wonder that Novell coopted the word by adding an extra "l". It doesn't seem extremely novel to me, as I've already said - it seems like a fancier version of Tandy's DeskMate shell. But then I haven't tried it out myself yet.

Re:OLPC Sucks

[dreddnott]

You can't expect any commitment from a coward like him.

Personally I think the whole $100 laptop thing is a huge marketing gimmick to prime the populations of third-world countries for consumerism (Linux aside, $100 cost aside, it still falls victim to engineered obsolescence). You and I can do a lot more by donating to charities or 'adopting' a child through a group like World Vision.

I used to work for an electronics recycling company, whose business was increasing partially because of SB20 and SB50 and partially because a lot of companies were no longer being allowed to ship their junk computers (many components of which are toxic waste) to third-world countries to be disposed of or scrapped, as opposed to properly recycled stateside, for a fee. We got all kinds of junk, from Dreamworks to Viewsonic, but I couldn't handle the third-world pay anymore.

I think the "OLPC" is just a first wave in a new corporate strategy to "legitimately" dump difficult-to-dispose-of old hardware and then sell new hardware in developing countries.

They are already here!

[Anonymous Coward]

You now, there is a LiveCD available you could have used to see for yourself before posting.

There are vmware images available you could have used for the same purpose.

You could have taken a look at the site of the project, where you would have found answers to your questions.

Instead you chose to post your nonsense on /.

But to answer your questions, there are some apps that were specifically written for the OLPC, but most are simply modified Linux apps (for example abiword and firefox).

Sun should take a lesson.

[Anonymous Coward]

Most of Sugar, the OLPC's desktop environment, is written in Python. The source is here:
http://dev.laptop.org/git.do?p=sugar;a=tree

I just tried it out, and I am pleasantly surprised! It's amazing how much faster Python is for desktop applications than Java is. Even when using IBM's SWT for developing Java applications, they still feel far more bloated and slower-responding than OLPC's Python-based GUI applications.

I would have expected Python to be slower than Java, but apparently that is not the case. It could be that the layers upon layers that make up Swing really slow it down. Maybe it's time for Sun to take a page from OLPC's Sugar project, and develop a UI framework that is fast and easy to use.

Re:Sun should take a lesson.

[Nasarius]

Sugar apparently uses PyGTK, so all the heavy lifting is done in C. wxPython works the same way, and it's what I write most of my GUI tools with. Even with lots of callbacks into Python code, it still runs fast. It's amazing how much you can do with just a few lines of code and no need to compile.

Re:Sun should take a lesson.

[JavaPunk]

Sure, but do you know what Sugar actually is? They just use a lot of custom GTK+ widgets. It's a glorified GTK binding. While I love python, I don't think thats the cause of the speed. I'm pretty sure that if you used whatever GTK java bindings your application would be just as fast.

Re:Sun should take a lesson.

[Anonymous Coward]

Just a data test, ignore.

Re:Sun should take a lesson.

[Anonymous Coward]

Well, what is SWT? A "native" toolkit, that lives on the bare metal (GTk, in the Linux case), and that's supposed to be fast.

Oh wait, it's not completely cross-platform, with lots of bugs and queer behavior on the Mac, it doesn't look *nearly* native, it's slow as hell, compared to any GUI I've yet seen. I really wonder what the hell they did with a native GUI interface to make it SO amazingly crappy.

yeah great

[keeboo]

By July or so, several million are expected to reach Brazil, Argentina, Uruguay, Nigeria, Libya, Pakistan, Thailand and the Palestinian territory.

Oh, fantastic... There goes my hard-earned taxpayer money.
Nothing like a populist solution for a stuctural problem.

Screenshot

[youngerpants]

http://wiki.laptop.org/go/Sugar_design_review_3/

Lameness filter is a lameness filter

Re:Screenshot

[Mike89]

This one works better

Re:OLPC Sucks

[Moofie]

"it still falls victim to engineered obsolescence"

How do you know? Have you inspected the hardware?

I've never understood the concept, really. How does one engineer a product to work properly through the warranty period, but magically fail when it's out of warranty? Certainly, some manufacturers use inexpensive parts when they think they can, and sometimes those parts fail, but it's hard to imagine that's an intended effect.

Maybe I'm naive.

Source code is here

[HTPC-Pete]

For sources and development information see here: http://dev.laptop.org/git.do?p=sugar;a=summary

Re:OLPC Sucks

[Anonymous Coward]

You and I can do a lot more by donating to charities or 'adopting' a child through a group like World Vision.

Fuck charity, we need to change the global economy. If you want to help the poor in the third world then don't give them charity unless they are literally starving. If you want to help you should buy what they produce, lobby your government to write off the debt they made them take on and lobby your government to remove trade restrictions. Your country is fucking the third world in the ass and given you live in a democray they are doing it in your name. You need to stop the fucking, not start the giving.

Re:OLPC Sucks

[QRDeNameland]

How does one engineer a product to work properly through the warranty period, but magically fail when it's out of warranty? Certainly, some manufacturers use inexpensive parts when they think they can, and sometimes those parts fail, but it's hard to imagine that's an intended effect.

What you are describing is not "engineered obsolescence" but "engineered failure," and indeed is hard to imagine manufacturer's doing. Obsolescence != failure.

Engineered obsolescence means that the manufacturer's product roadmap is such that the product bought today is superceded by better products in a relatively short timeframe, enticing people to keep buying over and over again.

Re:OLPC Sucks

[dreddnott]

Forgive me if I use the term 'engineered obsolescence' a bit more broadly than I should have. I don't mean component failure specifically, and certainly not with respect to warranty duration.

Do you know if this $100 laptop is upgradable? I'm sure that as the lustful fires of consumerism awaken in these nations' loins, they'll want harder, better, faster, stronger laptops that these corporations will be all too happy to *sell* them, as the OLPC simply doesn't meet the gluttonous standards of a modern consumer. It looks to me kind of like what a drug dealer might do with 'free samples'.

At Least They Can do Really Important Things...

[Anonymous Coward]

...like PLAY DOOM! http://www.olpcnews.com/software/third_party/doom_ on_the_olpc_xo.html

Re:Linux Doesn't Need Your Apps

[mpapet]

Linux desktop is getting nowhere, despite it's technical excellence,

1. It's very easy to argue it's getting somewhere because of the variety of distros out there. Just because NetCraft or whatever research name you look to for credibility can't/won't measure or validate the progress means absolutely nothing.

2. Putting together a coherent desktop is difficult to say the least. Your average Linux desktop won't be competing directly with apple/microsoft, but you will find pragmatic IT people deploying them everywhere. No, none of those people have been the subjects in desktop market share research either.

because it lacks key apps (i.e., Office). Pull a few key apps from MacOS X (e.g., Office, Photoshop, etc.) and see what happens to adoption.

This is a well-worn and ultimately invalid opinion. History shows us repeatedly that the switch happens when one platform has something a consumer **really** needs. Making look-alike office and graphics apps is not the answer. The answer is a little deeper. Maybe openoffice.org might have something really great lawyers would switch for. Maybe gimp has features that animators want they can't get from Adobemedia. (filmgimp?)

We know it hasn't happened yet, but it's already begun. Proprietary software companies like Microsoft and Adobemedia will tighten the noose by raising prices and offer progressively less innovation. History shows this over and over again.

OS is Fedora based

[GodWasAnAlien]

The word "OS" is not mentioned in the article.

Re:OLPC Sucks

[Moofie]

"Do you know if this $100 laptop is upgradable?"

Do you know that it isn't? Do you know if it needs to be upgradeable? I've got a laptop that's several years old, and I wouldn't even consider upgrading it.

"I'm sure that as the lustful fires of consumerism awaken in these nations' loins,"

OK, holy cow. Could we please dial back the rhetoric a little bit?

"they'll want harder, better, faster, stronger laptops that these corporations will be all too happy to *sell* them"

Yeah, sell them for $100. And these people who may or may not want upgraded laptops either will either buy one, or not. Or they might set up a cottage industry to upgrade their neighbors' computers, thereby earning money. You know, kinda the way the rest of us do it.

I find that a lot of people who argue about the evils of consumerism are more interested in telling me what I should or should not do with my money than actually looking out for peoples' best interests.

Re:OLPC Sucks

[muszek]

Don't you just love posts full of f-words that are 100% right?

I really hope OLPC project will create a situation when 3rd world countries will be able to produce services that we'll want to buy and won't cost us $0.01 per work hour. I believe OLPC is a huge opportunity.

Re:OLPC Sucks

[Moofie]

So basically, computers should stop getting faster so that you won't feel bad because you bought one?

Uh, no.

Computers do not lose capability over time. (Except for Windows machines.)

screenshot

[Danzigism]

I took the liberty of drawing up an artist conception based on exactly how the article describes the Novel OS for the OLPC.. Download it here

Go whoops yourself.

[fm6]

I think I'm tired of all the posts from people who think their own inability to read is extremely funny. And did you bother to (mis)read past the headline? They've invented a new UI metaphor, one that sounds pretty interesting. Novel enough.

Re:Most underinstalled thing I've not used in a wh

[Simon80]

No actually, the closest they'll get is an enhanced derivative version of Abiword.

Purpose!

[fm6]

There are no applications because running applications is not the platform's purpose.

Pricing is made up in the 1st place

[gelfling]

I took a look at Koobox PC's. Sure it starts out cheap. But then you have to replace the 40GB drive and quadruple the RAM. And by the time you're done it's a $600 unit. They price a harddrive upgrade for 120GB @ more than a hundred bucks. They want $129 for the RAM. I'd be happier if they didn't include anything at all. Straight retail mail order would be cheaper for the parts.

So I'm pretty sure we could all have $100 laptops if pricing was semi rational.

Re:Pricing is made up in the 1st place

[psy0rz]

Why got the parent modded up?? Did you actually took the time to look at the OLPC wiki, to see whats going on??? Or did you just started googling for 'cheap laptop hardware'? This project has NOTHING to do with huge amounts of ram or big harddrives. This project is focussed on building a CHEAP laptop from scratch, to be used by childeren in poor countries. It's not about l33ching pr0n and playing WoW.

Re:Pricing is made up in the 1st place

[gelfling]

No that's not the point. The point is that hardware pricing is more or less pulled out of their asses. The manufacturing cost of a cheap laptop, if the costs reflected what it actually costs to build would be a fraction of price point used as a comparison for which the $100 laptop project was founded. In other words, if we saw a 'regular' laptop at the price that reflects the cost plus the margin they claim to get, then the end used price would ALREADY be far lower than what people pay today.

C'mon try to keep up. Thanks.

Re:Pricing is made up in the 1st place

[mgiuca]

The OLPC doesn't have a hard drive. They're cutting out expensive hardware. I think they've done their calculations...

Re:Pricing is made up in the 1st place

[psy0rz]

Perhaps, but keep in mind that the hardware and software is custom tailorred for this project. For example, they've stripped unnessesary connectors and controllers, the casing is shock/water/dust proof, the screen is usable in sunlight, and the kernel and user space software is heavily adjusted.

On the wiki you will see things like:
"Marcelo Tosatti, one of the Red Hat OLPC staff has recently made the 'tickless' patches work on the Geode. He's now at of order 50 interrupts/second and investigating further. He also cleaned up the USB-EHCI driver to stop polling and become interrupt driven, again reducing wakeup overhead."

So the hardware and software are both very focussed on a particular usecase. Off-the-self hardware and software just isn't usable.

Where can I get one?

[calstars]

I'm sure I'm not alone in wanting to get my hands on one of these. Why don't they make them available to the Western world at double the price, $200, and put the profits towards making more of them for the 3rd world?

Re:Where can I get one?

[JoshJ]

I think there's a planned deal where you can buy 3 of them, get one for yourself, and send two of them to the 3rd world. I'm not sure if this is still true, or if it was ever true, but I know it was brought up in a previous OLPC thread.

Re:Where can I get one?

[DragonWriter]

I'm sure I'm not alone in wanting to get my hands on one of these. Why don't they make them available to the Western world at double the price, $200, and put the profits towards making more of them for the 3rd world?

Because a major reason for the low price is that they aren't doing the kind of packaging and marketing, etc., they'd need to do for individual sales, the cost would be significantly higher than $100 (or even the $150 that looks like it will be the "early adopter" cost) if it were sold to individuals, without any excess to put toward a subsidy.

That being said, OLPC is looking at making a somewhat more expensive and capable derivative system for sale to the public in the US and other advanced countries, but its a secondary priority.

Re:OLPC Sucks

[dan828]

...they'll want harder, better, faster, stronger laptops that these corporations will be all too happy to *sell* them, as the OLPC simply doesn't meet the gluttonous standards of a modern consumer.

Oh good God. The point is they can't afford standard consumer electronics as it is. That's what the whole project was about-- provide a low cost computer to people that can't afford current computers. Great insight there. With out a doubt OLPC will soon be trying to sell the latest core 2 duo laptops to the children of Bangladesh. Hell, they'll probably start a new campaign, One Widescreen HD Plasma TV Per Child (OWHDPTVPC), next, just to sucker those unsuspecting s fools in even more.

Re:OLPC Sucks

[Anonymous Coward]

Best comment EVER!

Insightful?

[BarnabyWilde]

THAT'S what passes for insightful here?

Gack. Ick. Urk.

Re:The "Stick Figure" icon sounds offensive...

[megaditto]

So what?

Ethiopian kids could use some diet!

Shouldn't it use the ODF for word processing?

[Anonymous Coward]

Damn! The ODF is now an international standard and these guys muck up the waters with a _new_ format? What's wrong with using ODF?

Re:Shouldn't it use the ODF for word processing?

[psy0rz]

Bloat, and dependencys. This should be a very MINIMALISTIC system, with out any bloat like XML. Furthermore the main document-exchanging will be between those laptops.

Re:Shouldn't it use the ODF for word processing?

[uwog]

Where did you find XML in my comment? Crossmark is NOT XML. Also, this is I think the first time in history AbiWord is blamed of having bloatness, thanks! :-P

Re:Shouldn't it use the ODF for word processing?

[shrykk]

Where did you find XML in my comment? Crossmark is NOT XML. Also, this is I think the first time in history AbiWord is blamed of having bloatness, thanks! :-P

Au contraire, parent post was supporting you, and repudiating the claim that Sugar should use ODF (where the XML and bloat reside).

SWT is basically a GTK+ binding for Java.

[Anonymous Coward]

Umm, you do realize that SWT on Linux is built directly upon GTK+ or Motif, right? It is essentially the same as PyGTK, in many respects. Yet it still feels far slower. The only thing I can attribute such degraded speed to is Java. GTK+ applications written in C and Python are very responsive and lightweight, while equivalent applications written using Java and SWT take far longer to start up, consume a lot more memory, and are nowhere near as responsive.

Re:SWT is basically a GTK+ binding for Java.

[Anonymous Coward]

SWT "feels" slower because you already "know" Java is "slow" through years of self-reassuring and circular reasoning based on the tech equivalent of old wives' tales. EOL.

Re:OLPC Sucks

[QRDeNameland]

So basically, computers should stop getting faster so that you won't feel bad because you bought one?

Did I say that? Uh no.

Computers do not lose capability over time.

Did I say that they did? Uh no.

Did you offer any justification of your initial comment which describes "engineered obsolescence" as meaning that something is designed to *fail*, showing that you don't understand the difference between "obsolescence" and "failure?" Uh no.

Three strikes and you're out.

Look up "obsolescence" in the dictionary. It has nothing to do with failure, nor does it imply losing capability over time (other than through becoming outdated in comparison to newer better products).

Re:OLPC Sucks

[psy0rz]

I think the "OLPC" is just a first wave in a new corporate strategy to "legitimately" dump difficult-to-dispose-of old hardware and then sell new hardware in developing countries. Please read the OLPC wiki before you start rambling, especially this page: http://wiki.laptop.org/go/OLPC_myths

Re:OLPC Sucks

[2short]

I do beleive he was assuming the previous poster, and then you, were trying to say something with some possible relevance, and attempting to devine what that might be. So rather than getting all upset he guessed wrong, perhaps you could enlighten us?

"engineered obsolescence" certainly implies some intent; Do you suggest a $100 dollar laptop, or any laptop, could possibly be designed such that it would not become obsolete?

I love this

[zogger]

quote FTA: ""In fact, one of the saddest but most common conditions in elementary school computer labs (when they exist in the developing world), is the children are being trained to use Word, Excel and PowerPoint," Negroponte wrote in an e-mail interview. "I consider that criminal, because children should be making things, communicating, exploring, sharing, not running office automation tools.""

Bull

[Cafe Alpha]

I built my career as a programmer starting with a TRS-80 followed by an Atari 800, both computers much, much more primitive than what you have in a cell phone.

What distinguishes a computer from a cell phone these days is:

1. A keyboard you can actually type on
2. A screen you can actually read
3. An open enough operating system that you can compile and run programs.

This has all three.

Computer. Not cell phone. Computer.

And it's damn good that it has the networking, sound, !vision! stuff that makes it suitable for communication too.

They will all be confiscated

[Cafe Alpha]

In Nigeria, Malaysia etc, I expect Muslim fundimentalists to take them all away.

No doubt they will all end up being used to train Al Qa'eda recruits in computer skills.

Yay.

Frys had a $100 machine weeks ago

[Cafe Alpha]

Running Linux was the main price break I think.

For cheap computers, the Windows license is the main cost these days - and the reason you need a fast processor, lots of memory and a bit hard drive.

Re:Frys had a $100 machine weeks ago

[psy0rz]

Yep, that, and the fact that the desktop doesnt look/feel like anything we're used to at all. The price is not the only thing that makes this laptop so special; its a revolutionary new concept of computing.

Re:Where can I find the "Sugar" Windowmanager or D

[swillden]

There's also a VMWare image. Grab the torrent and a copy of VMWare's free player and you can take a look at it that way.

The torrent doesn't have a lot of seeds (I may be the only one at the moment), so if you grab it, please seed for a while.

It's not novel...

[TorrentFox]

I got ahold of a vm with this new operating system. Its strengths are the scalability of the network (a "swarm" of ad-hoc'd laptops is possible), a straightforward interface that doesn't depend so much on language use, and its simplicity.

Its major drawback, however, is the fact that it's not a sophisticated enough system to be useful for all ages of children. The UI and software suit are so surprisingly dumbed down that if it weren't internet capable, I fear it would be useless for any children over, say, 12 years old. And that's pushing it: My 12-year-old sister is making elaborate animations with stuff that would never run on the 100-pc.

I say build schools; build libraries. Build something sustainable, for christ's sake! They're going to give these laptops to children who may not have the best living conditions. My home is hypo-allergenic and safety-sealed, and my sister's laptop is falling apart. What would it look like if dust and dirt and sand came into the picture? Probably a lot like a 100 dollar paperweight. Oh wait- there's no paper that would need a weight, since all our offices went paperless, and the Congo decided to follow suit.

Where are the abs?

[Anonymous Coward]

"Well, saying the same thing many times doesn't make it more true or relevant."

Taco is a stud! Taco is a stud! Taco is a stud!

How much do these things really cost?

[the Gray Mouser]

The article mentions that they HOPE to bring the price down to $100 per laptop through mass production.

I did a quick check on tigerdirect and saw quite a few laptop models in the $400 range. And they do a whole lot more than show some stick figures and share text.

One of the selling points of these laptops is internet access, which means there's got to be power coming from somewhere so charging batteries is not an insurmountable obstacle. Heck, build some pedal powered dynamos for the villages, which would help with a lot of other issues as well.

It seems like one of the goals of this project is to have as few skills learned as possible carry over to other computers later in life. I've got to give the man credit, he seems to be getting people to sign up, but I wonder what Dell could provide a country willing to write them a $100 million dollar check...

Re:How much do these things really cost?

[psy0rz]

You can find all this information on the wiki. For example: http://wiki.laptop.org/go/Our_technology

"What can a $1000 laptop do that the $100 version can't?
Not much. The plan is for the $100 Laptop to do almost everything. What it will not do is store a massive amount of data. What it will have is a level of robustness found on very few laptops of any price; a display that works indoors and out; an order of magnitude improvement in power consumption; and an exceptional wifi antenna design."

"What about connectivity? Aren't telecommunications services expensive in the developing world?
When these machines pop out of the box, they will make a mesh ether network of their own, peer-to-peer. This is something initially developed at MIT and the Media Lab. Connectivity to the Internet will be from the mesh through gateways at the schools. (We are working with the local governments and the private sector regarding how to reduce the cost of Internet access. The Motoman project is an example of how you can make a little connectivity go a very long way.)"

So the $100 can do some stuff a regular laptop cant do. Also, a regular laptop probably has a lot of features that are not needed, nor desired in those countrys. (IEEE, utp networking, cdrom drives that break easily, moving parts like fans and disks, screens that brake and arent usable in the sun) Some specs of the laptop are even Military grade. Its expected that the laptop will last years longer than a normal consumer laptop.

So in the end its not about building a laptop as cheap as possible, or one that has many features and software. Its about building a DEVICE that helps kids to learn, communicate, share and express their creativity in countries like rwanda and Uruguay, for years and years to come.

I've spend hours reading the wiki, and i think some time in the future schools in our own countrys will also start providing a similar laptop to all young students, instead of books.

I would urge people that have their doubts about this project to read the FAQ and Myth pages on the wiki:
http://wiki.laptop.org/go/Faq and http://wiki.laptop.org/go/OLPC_myths .

Maybe some of you even are willing to help. :)

Fixed specs != planned obsolescence

[KlaymenDK]

Personally I think the whole $100 laptop thing is a huge marketing gimmick to prime the populations of third-world countries for consumerism (Linux aside, $100 cost aside, it still falls victim to engineered obsolescence). The following would be true for any contraption: the device needs not change if the usage pattern does not. I have a PDA that by current standards are outright archaic, but it fulfills my needs just as perfectly as when it was new. Sure, new products offer more features, but that does not detract from the old product; unless you are made to think the product you have is no longer good enough.

It is my impression that the whole idea of creating a brand new interface is to escape the eternal upgrade spiral. On the surface, they do away with folders and mainstream OS vendors, but consider how this affects the entire paradigm of computing. In a few years these people will be old enough to work in an office (not saying they will, it's just a possibility), and set me tell you, I think they're not going to *want* to touch Windows, MacOS, or KDE/Gnome with a fire poker -- it's too messy. They won't want to work on their computer, they'll want to work on their *tasks*.

You and I can do a lot more by donating to charities or 'adopting' a child through a group like World Vision. Great! By all means, if you are so inclined, fund and donate all you like! :o) But this is completely separate from the OLPC project. Both are valid options in their own right; it's just that you can't make individual contributions to one of them.

I used to work for an electronics recycling company, whose business was increasing partially because of SB20 and SB50 and partially because a lot of companies were no longer being allowed to ship their junk computers (many components of which are toxic waste) to third-world countries to be disposed of or scrapped, as opposed to properly recycled stateside, for a fee. We got all kinds of junk, from Dreamworks to Viewsonic, but I couldn't handle the third-world pay anymore. I don't know the "SB*0" you mention, but I for one think shipping waste "under the carpet" *should* be regulated, if not avoided altogether.

I think the "OLPC" is just a first wave in a new corporate strategy to "legitimately" dump difficult-to-dispose-of old hardware and then sell new hardware in developing countries. Irrelevant. This has nothing to do with old hardware. The entire concept targets an environment where traditional computer devices would be useless (power, wired networking, harsh conditions, &c).

As you state in a later post, hardware failures are a different topic; that's mostly a question of build quality and durablity. While it is to a high degree possible for a manufacturer to skimp in this department, and thus encourage more purchases, it's not my impression that the OLPC project has chosen this path -- quite the opposite.

Why not test on local kids first?

[yosofun]

Why is the OLPC planning on testing the product on kids in remote countries, first, without testing a few on local kids? There are plenty of inner-city-USA children who have never seen a computer before.

Why can't you create (creatively) using MS Office?

[yosofun]

Not to betray myself as a Microsoft-supporter on Slashdot, but...

You can write a novel or short story in MS Word; you can also email it or save it as a webpage to share it with everyone. (Isn't this considered "making things, communicating, exploring, sharing"?)

You can draw pretty graphs in Excel (Isn't this considered "making things, communicating, exploring, sharing"?)

You can create neat animations (without any prior experience in a professional software) in MS Powerpoint. (Isn't this considered "making things, communicating, exploring, sharing"?)

That's what I remember trying the first time I AOL-warez'ed MS Office to check it out back in 7th grade. I barely knew how to use Windows back then, since coming from tech-deprived roots, my family didn't own a computer until then.

Methinks the old Nick has, sadly, never tried using MS Office to create anything new.

Will Negroponte live up to his oath?

[yosofun]

I have to laugh when people refer to XO as a weak or crippled machine and how kids should get a 'real' one," Negroponte wrote. "Trust me, I will give up my real one very soon and use only XO. It will be far better, in many new and important ways."

I'd like to see him live up to his word.

Kids aren't taught Microsoft Office in school...

[yosofun]

Most schools still have more Apple's than IBM-compatible PC's. Some schools have only Apple computers. And if you go to a public school, you aren't taught Office until high school or middle school.

Re:Where can I find the "Sugar" Windowmanager or D

[Futil3]

Excellent! Thanks a lot. I'll leave it seeded on my server. There's not a lot of bandwidth, but it'll trickle through eventually.

.sig

[Morosoph]

Is there a middle way between Intelligent Design and Neo-Darwinism?

Science isn't politics, so "middle ways" aren't the point. Either science is an inherently biased activity, and now that we're treading upon God's work, science is no longer serving us well, or else Darwinism is close to the truth.

Stephen J Gould (RIP) attempted to address Neo-Darwinism, and made some progress, but the evolution of species through natural selection remained; his concept of speciation created moments of focused "creativity", but the mechanism remained untouched. He also suggested selection upon scales larger than the gene, but this is using poetry to attck mathematics: a gene's "interest" in self-propagation includes the interests of reciprocting co-conspirators, wherever they're hosted.

There are two issues that are relevant: what is true, and what is science (these need not have the same answer). Finding a middle way is sometimes good political strategy, but isn't the way of either truth (which is singular, though unknowable), or science, which (for example) selects simpler models over more complex ones [Occam's Razor].

Strange hardware specs

[mnmn]

I do not quite understand the logic behind the choice of the CPU.

It is quite a specific operating system and environment (not quite windows xp). Linux has been ported to many arches. So why not go with Alchemy or ARM9 chips? Lower power lower price. Why x86? The only reason to stick to x86 is to run windows or standardized Linux distros like redhat.

And if they had to go with the geode and 128mb ram, why not use the lx800 chip which uses lower power?

I would imagine an ARM9 chip would take less cranking to last for a while and it will be $10 cheaper in quantity.

Pour some Sugar on me!

[The Monster]

In a few years these people will be old enough to work in an office (not saying they will, it's just a possibility), and set me tell you, I think they're not going to *want* to touch Windows, MacOS, or KDE/Gnome with a fire poker -- it's too messy. They won't want to work on their computer, they'll want to work on their *tasks*.

Given the target audience for OLPC, I predict that long before these kids make it into the workforce, Sugar will be available for Ubuntu, either as an app to run on top of a windowing environment or as a standalone interface.

In fact, there will probably be a fork of Edubuntu with a name like Subuntu, Sedubuntu, or OXubuntu, unless the devs figure out how to fit it all on the same CD anyway. In that case, different users logging into the same machine can have different default sessions. Those who feel confined by Sugar, who make the effort to learn the desktop paradigm, can use GNOME, KDE, etc.

Re:Pour some Sugar on me!

[KlaymenDK]

:) Seeing as how 'regular' users can already download Sugar, your post seems very likely -- great!

I've been saying that for years

[gelfling]

Get rid of ALL external ports with the exception of USB. Build in 802.x and Bluetooth. Make a fanless design, close all the holes in the case and make some kind of effort to toughen up the box. And make the screen detachable through an internally doled out wire. Rubberize the keyboard so it's sealed. And absolutely standardize. You could drive down the cost enormously w/o having to get fancy. By comparison there is no earthly reason why VIA based micro ITX PC's cost MORE than their desktop counterparts except for the coolness factor and people seem to be willing to pay it. I myself have been looking for a micro ITX appliance sized box, fanless, one or zero PCI slots that can run w/o a keyboard or monitor and find that the premium for that form factor is too high. I might as well buy a Mac mini. And even that's a little too complicated. I don't need a CDRW/DVD drive. I don't need fancy graphics or sound. I don't even need a hard drive - rather I'd like an internal bay to plug in my own drive of any given size or none at all and run off a large thumbdrive. Once you remove the gewgaws from a microITX such as the DVD drive and you modify the power source a-la OLPC with some kind of dynamo you can get the size pretty damn small - perhaps not any bigger than my Thinkpad's AC adapter power supply. And that has got to be something very cheap to build. If they plunk in 1GB RAM you could could damn close to surface mounting the whole PC on a few chips and controllers, one tiny board smaller than a Freescale or PC-104 and a few connectors. If it lasts a year, you toss it like a cell phone.

Seriously, home hacks of routers, NAS boxes and the like are close to what one would need.

Re:Thanks for nothing Apple

[izam_oron]

Eh? He offered OS X for free for these machines, but they turned it down due to it being closed source. If it fell through, that would be taking a kick in the balls, especially since there's a good chance this might make it into one of Apple's segments, considering they still target education, while using their operating system at Apple's expense. That's more than you can say for yourself. What have YOU done for poor little Sebastian in Nigeria, personally?

Reminds me of the argument...

[Kozz]

Reminds me of the common argument that should stop its because there exists .

I'm not saying you're wrong -- far from it. I just think you're not 100% correct. Perhaps there's room in the world for taking action on more than one front?

Sluggish?

[vaksion]

A 100$ laptop? Erg. Its for something good, though.

Re:OLPC Sucks

[Andy Dodd]

Nothing can be designed so that it won't become obsolete.

Engineered obsolecence is less about the actual product itself rather than the plan for future products.

For example, a $100 laptop that you have to crank in and itself isn't necessarily designed to go obsolete soon.

Engineered obsolecense is when you release a $100 hand-cranked laptop and have plans to release a $100 fusion-powered laptop in six months, especially if you don't tell your customers about the upcoming fusion unit.

Re:OLPC Sucks

[Moofie]

Here's the product roadmap for computers that will be valid for the forseeable future.

Every several months, faster models will be available.

If that's your definition of engineered obsolesence, it is not possible to design a laptop that is not engineered to be obsolete.

Why is no one talking about actually important...

[drinkypoo]

...aspects of this project? Kids would figure out how to use a traditional UI. I'm more interested in, for example, how they plan to promote educational tools bundled on the OLPC like Squeak. I've heard plenty about Sugar. Sugar is just candy, pun intended.

Re:OLPC Sucks

[Phishcast]

I think this particular charity could be extremely important on a global level. We've got misguided or uneducated people teaching children around the world inciteful falsehoods like the holocaust never happened and all Jews are evil. Imagine if inquisitive children could actually make their way out to the Internet and discover the truth about the world outside their village/country/religion/oppressive government. The amount of extremism in the world may just drop...or at least non-participant support for extremism, which is half the problem in and of itself.

Insert pornography jokes as you see fit, but ask yourself if you're more enlightened because you have access to the Internet. It IS important.

Side effects of the $100 laptop

[dfrossar]

Sure this laptop will offer interesting learning opportunities to students, as advertised. But it will also have all kinds of unforeseen or unstated side-effects -- some good, some bad. I just came back from 27 months as a Peace Corps Volunteer in a rural African village without electricity, running water, or paved roads -- an ideal location for these computers. Given conditions there, I can imagine that...

1. These machines will quickly start to disappear from remote rural schools and a thriving black market for the device will appear in nearby towns. (Solution: Sell the damned things to the public too, like we've been asking for years.)

2a. They *may* soon be broken and fall into disrepair, since anything people are given free has less value to them than something one works for and purchases one's self.

2b. Conversely, they *may* be seen as precious objects that are treated with great care.

2c. Most certainly, siblings who don't have access to them will become insanely jealous, resulting in lots of sibling rivalry. Sorry, parents. 8-)

3. Rural areas will become vast sources of office labor in poor countries, as rural kids seek out government and corporate office jobs accessible to them with their typing, communications, and other office-related skills.

4. Interfaces mimicking the laptop's "Journal" interface will start to pop up for Linux and Windows users, especially in the countries that first get the laptops. (Current interfaces are vast overkill for the majority of users, who just want to browse the web, write a letter, read email. There is a great hunger for a simplified alternative.)

5. The $100 laptop will spawn a great rethinking of interface design. Other slimmed-down laptops will appear from other manufacturers. (Myself, I've been waiting for years for a Palm interface running on a 7x10x1/2-inch laptop at 640 x 480 with 30 hours of battery life. And I'd pay a lot more than $100 to get it!)

6. Kids who today walk five miles to dip a bucket of water from a stream will start to become programmers and develop new apps for the $100 laptop. The criticism we're hearing that "there's no software" for the device will sound silly in a few years.

7. Most certainly, the immense divide between rural and urban in the poor world will shrink a bit. And that may in the long run be more important even than the laptop's educational function.

Re:Side effects of the $100 laptop

[dfrossar]

Also, making this laptop work will require a lot more understanding of people in the underdeveloped world by people in the overdeveloped world (and maybe vice-versa). For the project to truly "get it right," it must not only fit into the computer culture(s) that will inevitably develop around the new interface and apps, but the hundreds of different actual cultures of people who receive the machine as well. Otherwise, we're just foisting off one more set of one-size-fits-all computing preferences and practices on the rest of the world.

Re:Thanks for nothing Apple

[Anonymous Coward]

I think that Apple might create a version of OS X for the OLPC hardware as a skunkworks project, much like how they had an Intel version of OS X in the closet. Since Microsoft and Intel are working on their "own" OLPC-type project, don't you think it would be good business sense for Apple to be able to offer an "upgrade" to OS X for all of that installed OLPC hardware ?

Re:OLPC Sucks

[Lord Bitman]

So the problem you have is: Not only are they going to be giving out new education and communication opportunities, but by the very nature of how they are doing it, they will be creating new economic opportunities.

I personally don't see any problem with that.

But I see the addition of choice ("Well, I could buy a new system so that I can play games, or I could buy some medicine" vs "I have money! Now I can finally buy medicine!") as a good thing. Idiots will remain idiots, and if someone dies because of a bad choice, remember it's really the bad /decision/, not the choice itself.

Re:OLPC Sucks

[2short]

I understand what engineeered obsolecence is. Still waiting on a comment of possible relevance to the discussion at hand.