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Does Income Inequality Matter?

theodp is concerned about the following: "Alarmed by Goldman Sachs CEO Lloyd Blankfein's record-setting $53M bonus, Charles Wheelan (aka The Naked Economist) argues that income inequality matters. Wheelan notes that the Gini Coefficient (a measure of income inequality) for the U.S. has been moving away from countries like Japan and Sweden and closer to that of Brazil, where the murder rate is 5X that of NYC and crime is materially impacting GDP."

10 of 1,186 comments (clear)

  1. Correlation... causation by nacturation · · Score: 0, Flamebait

    Wheelan notes that the Gini Coefficient (a measure of income inequality) for the U.S. has been moving away from countries like Japan and Sweden and closer to that of Brazil, where the murder rate is 5X that of NYC and crime is materially impacting GDP. So the bonus pay for a corporate executive somehow directly correlates with an increased crime rate?
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    1. Re:Correlation... causation by Archangel+Michael · · Score: 0, Flamebait

      "Isn't everyone entitled to one or two 'luxury' items?"

      NO

      Thank you for making my point so abundantly clear for everyone. They are "entitled" to the "opportunity" to acquire these things, not the things themselves. People like you feed the rationale for the types of crime I mentioned. "Entitled" doesn't mean what you think it means.

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    2. Re:Correlation... causation by drsquare · · Score: 0, Flamebait
      If you were to take half the money of the richest 10% of Americans and spread it out among the poorest 40%, you'd probably take one of the biggest steps in history towards eliminating poverty.
      And what happens when they've spent all that money, and have now learnt to sit and do nothing but live on handouts? And what have the poor done to deserve those giant handouts? They won't work to better themselves, they won't live within the law, they won't know how to spend the money wisely anyway.

      single parents are expected to work full-time from the time their child is about 2 months old
      Perhaps then the solution is to not be a single parent? It's not societies fault that women get pregnant to men they're not going to spend the rest of their lives with.

      Basic benefits that everyone shares equally reduce effective income inequality, and there is a well-known link between desparate poverty and crime.
      So we give money to poor people or else they will commit crime? That sounds like blackmail to me. If poor people are blackmailing us why should we feel sorry for them?

      The solution to crime is not paying them off, the solution is better policing and hard punishments. It's easy to be a criminal in the ghetto when there is little to no police presence, when sentences are light and prisons are a holiday.

      The poor have no reason to trust people who run a society that is blatantly rigged against them.
      Rigged how? Last I looked there was nothing stopping a poor person from earning a living, making money, getting an education, or starting a business. Many millionaires in America started out with nothing.

      But for every poor person who wants to work to better himself, there are a thousand who want to wallow in self-pity and hold out the begging bowl. Society needs more of the former and less of the latter.
    3. Re:Correlation... causation by Archangel+Michael · · Score: 0, Flamebait

      "If I have goods, or can do work, as good as another who gets paid 10 times as much, because of the way he dresses, his accent, who he went to school with, then because of that I'm "worth" 1/10th as much as him."

      Stop comparing yourself to someone else, and then maybe you can achieve what you think you are worth. I think I'm worth 1,000,000 a year, because I believe I am smarter than most people who make that much. Doesn't make me happier, nor does it make me richer to compare myself to others.

      My daughters used to complain ... "That's not fair", to which I replied "Who told you life is fair".

      Some people are born tall, is that "fair" to people who are short? I'm 6'5" tall, is that fair? Should I be able to be a jockey on a race horse? Is it fair that I don't fit into most cars? My daughters can never be something that they might have been good at because they are 6' tall (Ballet). Is that fair?

      Simply put, LIFE isn't fair, quit trying to make it fair, because it is FUTILE, you cannot ever make it "fair". You can be, what you are, and be the best "you" you can be. There is ONLY one you, so quit trying to be someone else, and be the best "you" you can be.

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    4. Re:Correlation... causation by 99BottlesOfBeerInMyF · · Score: 0, Flamebait

      And in return they give you a house you couldn't afford up front. That's how mortgages work. When you consider the opportunity cost of the few hundred dollars they give you, mortgates are rather cheap.

      You don't understand. The only reason I can't afford a house up front and have to pay interest is because of circumstances of birth. Some people are born wealthy and some are born poor. It is not as extreme as when some people are born slaves and others are born aristocrats, but it is the same principal. This inherent unfairness of wealth distribution is what a lot of people use to justify crimes. After all life is already inherently unfair to start with, what does it matter if they take an action that is unfair, but benefits them?

    5. Re:Correlation... causation by m0rph3us0 · · Score: 0, Flamebait

      I believe allowing corruption to flourish is covered under "economic policy". They have chosen not to get rid of corruption thus they incur the economic costs of corruption.

      Have you ever thought that perhaps the reason they do not have the money is because their tax rate is so high (and unknown due to corruption) that it does not attract investment? The only people able to invest are those able to bribe officials. Thus, when investors see a high tax rate for their factory they choose to allocate it elsewhere.

  2. Where's my check for inflation? by Paladin144 · · Score: 0, Flamebait
    So, who got a check from the government last year to make up for all the money you lost to inflation? Anyone?

    Whenever topics like this come up all the libertarians, fascist/corporatists and foaming-at-the-mouth capitalists come out of the woodwork to say that "anybody can make it in America!" even though none of them have been poor, black, suffering from disease and fleeing from hurricanes while still succeeding in business. Hey, I like kool-aid, too, but this is total horseshit. Let me be absolutely clear:

    THE RICH "CREATE" POVERTY. Clear enough? Without rich people actively trying to fuck over poor people we wouldn't have the income disparity that we presently have. To see it in action, all you have to do is look at the Republican party and their collaborators in big business. They try their best to cut taxes for the rich and slash spending on social programs, no matter what the human cost. The Democrats help by increasing federal spending to obscene levels thereby necessitating increased taxation. We get fucked from both ends, like a double-sided dildo.

    As amusing as it is to read white-bread, middle-class slashdotters talking about how easy it is for anybody in America to become a captain of industry, I feel compelled to take a shit on your Capitalism Cake. Fascism is alive and well in this country, which should be no surprise to anyone who knows what Fascism is: Corporatism. Basically, it's the merger of the state and big business. Fascism is the governmental system that is most favorable to business, bar none. Big Business is fascist not because they believe in Hitler's aryan fantasies but because they stand to gain from a government hopelessly devoted to improving market conditions for greedy multinationals.

    The income gap is not a new thing because greed is as old as humanity. There is no such thing as being "rich enough." There is only MORE. More money, more power, more disparity. And how do you really know that you're rich unless somebody else is poor? How can you really enjoy being wealthy unless you have servants? The rich mindset is dead set on creating inequity because the rich benefit from it, and like I said, there is no limit to their desires.

    This is aided, abetted and made possible by the Federal Reserve System. Each year the Fed increases the money supply, and each year money becomes worth less and less. That's the problem with fiat currency. Since it's not backed by gold the dollar bill has no intrinsic worth. It is just paper. Since it's just paper/electrons it can be created with a flick of the wrist. And so it is. When that money is created, who gets it? You? Does the government/private industry send you a check each year to account for inflation? No, the money is simply stolen from you by those who create it: The bankers. Bankers are the Kings of Capitalism. They are the new aristocracy, the ruling class that maintains control with an iron fist. They control the corporations and our government.

    But this system, which appears impossibly strong from the outside, is actually rotting from within. Things are falling apart. If there was a run on the banks our economy would collapse into a pit that would make the Great Depression look like a tea party. That's because of the deposits vs. cash-on-hand ratio. Banks are able to create money simply by making loans. How? Well, they don't really have your money in the vault, you know. For each dollar you put in your savings account the bank is able to lend 10 dollars out because bankers have figured out that they only need to keep 10% of their total deposits on hand at any given time. (I'd like to have a 9x or 10x multiplier on my wealth. Maybe I should start a bank and screw you people over! It's the American way!) The Fed backs them in case of a run, but they don't have the money either. The money doesn't exist. It's imaginary. It's not backed by anything

  3. Re:Perception of opportunity by lupis42 · · Score: 0, Flamebait

    It could easily be argued that, since not committing any crimes is totally within your power to control, that parking ticket that the cop gave you because you didn't have any lunch money when he tried to beat you up for it is obviously entirely your fault, and your refusal to pay it, since you had no car, was also your fault, and you totally deserve the crappy credit that resulted. Not committing any crimes can be hard enough for rich white kids who like their cocaine at frat parties, when you're surrounded by corrupt cops, or just gangs waiting for a chance to beat you to death with two feet of plumbing, it can be damn near impossible to be alive and healthy at 18 with a clean record. Just saying.

  4. Low expense living by ChrisMaple · · Score: 0, Flamebait
    Part of the reason the US spends so much on the military is that some of the US military's expenses go toward helping to protect the EU. The EU is not bearing the full cost of its own protection.

    The US would be much wealthier overall if more than 50% of the federal budget were not sunk into unconstitutional expenses like welfare, social security, food stamps, and other wealth transfer schemes. When you spend a lot of money on something, you get more of it. In many federal cases we are spending money on poor people, making it easier to be poor, and (surprise!) we're getting more poverty.

    People with extremely low incomes generally have very little personal property and thus don't need more in terms of a dwelling than a portion of a room. Such people can share a room; throughout the country there are people who rent out single rooms at very modest rates. Sharing a room with someone else cuts the expense further. There is something very seriously wrong with a working person in the US who cannot afford this sort of an arrangement.

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  5. Re:Yes, It Does by p0tat03 · · Score: 0, Flamebait

    Let's go back to your original argument regarding cultural differences, which I will summarize in points below. If I'm not being fair in this summary, correct me:

    Western families are more likely to communicate with the police in a ransom-based child abduction.

    I have anecdotal evidence that they do. What do you have? Have there even been enough well-publicized ransom-based abductions in the US in the last decade for there to be an effective comparison?

    The West invokes a stronger "protect the children!" response than the East.

    Have you seen an extensive amount of Asian news coverage? Televised parliamentary debate? I have, and I find that point to be absurd. I have seen the media circus around abductions, both in the USA and in Taiwan, and I can safely say that the basic "think of the children!" meme is always there in BOTH countries. The kind of commentary expressed by people on both sides of the ocean follow very very similar topics. After all, we are all human, and we all care for our children (evidently not the abductors, heh).

    An example of the strong "protect the children!" response is the lack of child prostitution in the West as compared Asia, where it is a significant enough tourist attraction.

    True in some countries, not true in Taiwan. This point is a select number of small areas in Asia, and it is extremely regrettable that it is an issue at all. Nevertheless, my point stands, as you're talking about a different geography, one where child prostitution is even on the radar of social ills. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that Americans don't get all up in arms about child porn and other such things, but it would be a mistake to claim that most Asians do not.

    You keep looking for cultural differences to explain my example, but nothing you have brought up is relevant. Are there cultural differences between Taiwan and the US? Of course. Are child abductions for profit more prevalent in Taiwan because of them? No, it is not a major contributing factor. You seem to present a lot of "known" cultural differences simply based on your own perception of Asians. What are your qualifications? Have you lived in Asia for an extended period of time? Are you an Asian immigrant?

    Not to mention that, now that the income disparity has lessened dramatically over the last decade or so, abductions are now rare. I have absolutely no doubt that the massive drop in kidnappings has everything to do with the fact that the average income is now $28000 instead of $500, and that there are now social welfare systems (including public health) in place.

    I am not inclined to put stock into someone's commentary on Asian culture unless that person has a background in said culture. Watching CNN and following Asian Business News does not count. Being Asian, or having lived with Asians, or possessing extensive education in Asian studies, sure.