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The Hidden Engineering Gender Gap
ifindkarma writes "Joyce Park, CTO of invitation site Renkoo.com, has written a two-part essay exploring why there is no pipeline of self-taught female engineers entering the tech industry via Open Source or other individual efforts. In The Hidden Engineering Gap, she asks why there are so many self-taught male software engineers in startups, but no similar pool of women. In A Modest Proposal, she discusses a potential short-term fix to the problem: a one-year, co-op, certificate-granting program for women set up and sponsored by Silicon Valley companies."
I think some of it may be cultural.
I'd like to take 200 newborns, and divide them into two groups of 100, 50 of each gender in each group.
One group is only allowed to play with dolls and easybake ovens, the other group is only allowed to play with legos.
As a society, we TEND to encourage our female children to play at SOCIAL situations ("Let's have Tea!") and we TEND to encourage our male children to play at building things. This happens when we are really young, when our brains apparently have a much easier time at learning to do things (like languages).
Maybe the problem is that if you don't give a one-to-three year old a chance to play with things like legos and teach their brains to think in three dimensions when the brain is young that they never will be very good at it. And maybe we just happen to provide that education to boys more often than we do to girls.
paintball
In TFA, the author notes:
Women often seem to gain self-confidence by pursuing institutional affiliations, credentials, and clear career goals -- rather than simply pushing forward as "lone wolves" driven by individual curiosity.
Firstly, I think this statement discredits the true innovators of this world(past & present) who are driven by a passion to solve problems(sometimes at significant personal and social cost). These people are not just fulfilling some curiosty.
Secondly, and this is the crux of the whole article, females, by "pursuing institutional affiliations, credentials, and clear career goals" are giving themselves the access to a future raising a family.
By exposing themselve to this environment enhances the chances of finding a more desirable mate.
In post Patriot Act America, the library books scan you.
I used to think there was some truth to what you say. However, I'm about to have my third girl, and I'm here to tell you that, as many studies have shown, females generally tend to want to do things like play with dolls. Neither my wife nor I buy them any frilly clothes, dolls, etc ... but if they find a doll, they immediately take care of it like it's their own baby. Kids also tend to use their same-sex parent as a roll model, so girls tend to do things like their mothers, and boys tend to do things like their fathers.
:)
:)
Usual disclaimers on generalizations apply.
Luckily, my three year old also likes to help me work on the car.
Every single time I see this exact same kind of story posted, I always wonder, what does it matter? Is it so hard to accept that maybe women are not as interested in the engineering fields as men are? I don't see why there is this cry to bring women into the loop when the doors are wide open. It is not like they are not allowed in.
Also, if we really want to think about gender gaps in professions, why are there not more male nurses? I had to spend a decent amount of time in ICU when my father was hospitalized because of his heartattack. He is very overweight and it was no small challenge for the staff there to help move him when it was required. I think there was one male nurse there who helped but he wasn't always on duty. Would it not make sense to make this position more appealing to men since it would be a boon to both patients and staff alike? Just something to think about.
Brendan
Why do women need special treatment? Everyone acts like there needs to be sort of 'affirmative action' type of deal. What advantages do men have that women dont?
When I was an CS undergrad in college I remember hearing constantly about how 'women have it tougher in cs' and so forth. In my view exactly the opposite is true. I never once saw a female getting a worse grade because of her gender. I did however see one of the schools deans go ask professors for explanations when a female was doing poorly in a class. The result of that was that professors were under pressure to make sure that female students got through which resulted in unfair grading.
If women want to become engineers they should be allowed to and have the same opportunities as men, but preferential treatment just makes the ones that are legit look bad.
Bullshit. Women are making major inroads into many professions where the atmosphere was/is far more hostile. Law and finance, for example. If you are a female who really wants to make it on Wall Street or serious NYC-based finance, you had goddamn well better be OK with going to strip clubs to socialize with your peers after work.
The difference in my experience is that women tend to be more "credential" oriented than men. That's why more women are going to college and getting advanced degrees than men these days. It's also why in heavily administrative, bureaucratic areas, women hold their own with men and are even taking over...
But real IT - administration, design, and programming - frequently means working without directly relevant credentials or road map, and without any peer support when it comes to learning. For whatever reason, men are more willing to do this.
Frankly, if it weren't for biology - men can't bear children - women would be earning more than men by now, except at the very highest levels.
Expanding a vast wasteland since 1996.
It used to be that there not enough women in law or medicine either. Now, those fields are pretty equal. Why is it that some fields (programming, engineering, physical sciences...) can't get this right?
There are lots of little reasons (time demands, male oriented, no role models...), but the big root reason is that these are just not good jobs. All those little reasons were there in law and medicine, and were overcome. Rather than ask why no women want these jobs, ask why any person WOULD want these jobs. Most reasons women have for staying away from these areas should probably keep men away as well.
Even if you don't buy that women should be more or less equally represented in most jobs, it can be very educational learning exactly why they're staying away.
First, have you read his speech? Here it is. Your characterization of it is at best overy simplistic and possibly just wrong.
Is it not even worth considering the possiblity that there is a difference? I have heard a lot of people talk, and a lot of theory, conjecture. and speculation as to why there is such a gender gap in science and engineering, but no answers. Over the past 50 years, the gender gap has dramatically decreased in many fields requiring intelligent, technical people, but much of science and engineering has resisted diversification. It seems that speculating on the range of validity of the initial assumption should not get you fired by a community that prides itself on allowing people to hold radical or controversial viewpoints.
I personally think it is unlikely there is a siginificant difference in inherent aptitude, largely based on anecdotal observation that the gap is smaller in many european countries. Furthermore, I think that at least in the case of science researche (only because this is what I am familiar with) even if there is a gender disparity in the number of exceptionally qualified people, it is worth putting some serious effort into getting more women into those jobs. First, this provides a role model for other women who aspire to those jobs, but perhaps more importantly, if there is a real difference that means it is likely women will be able to provide new ideas and directions that men might be less likely to come up with. Said another popular way, monocultures are dangerous, if not necessarily bad.
As a woman interested in computing/engineering/whatever I always try to encourage my female friends to take an interest, but I have the same problems - they just don't care, and they don't want to care. Even my sister who played computer games with me on our 286 for hours on end, and who would kick my ass at sega megadrive, now barely has any interest or intuition for computers at all.
There are many reasons why most women don't have any interest in computers - one, of course, is role models. Some people only act as their parents and friends do - and if they don't use or *value* computing neither does the next generation. A second problem is that I know many many women (yeah and men too) who have no interest in how things work - they often learn new things by rote rather than by thinking WHAT/WHY they are doing something rather than HOW. Thirdly (and kind of related to my first point) is that often people who choose a different field of interest get so much support and see such a complete package to their chosen area that they have no room in their life for computing or scientific thought because their world does not allow these things in, and therefore does not need them.
First, the engineering gap is not hidden. It's extremely obvious. In 10 years of sysadmin/IT work, I've never had another female in the IT/systems groups I've worked in. I've worked in edu, consulting, high tech start ups. I have a BSCS and noticed that there were only 10 other females in my graduating class (out of ~100). I have also noticed that it is a very western thing for females not to be interested in CS/EE. I have met many, many Indian and Chinese women in engineering with CS or EE backgrounds. They seem not to have any of these "inborn" differences than western women have.
So what if baby girls like to play with dolls and baby boys play with trucks. That says nada about future aptitude for CS or EE. I am the mother of a girl, and she loves playing trains and trucks and thinks dolls are a lot of fun to throw down the stairs while yelling "uhoh, my baby!". Basically, even if the brains are wired differently, I don't think it's enough of a difference to make technical work a non-starter for all females. There are some advantaged being socialized female brings to technical work; such as the ability to enjoy taking showers on a daily basis. As a sysadmin, I have noticed that users are often relieved when I work on their issues, instead of the BOFH type who is smug and condescending in his treatment of users.
I am a self taught sysadmin, I worked for 6 years before going back to school to get my CS degree. I think the main reason why we lack distaff autodidacts is that they simply do not have the confidence with machines in our culture that males do. I remember learning pascal (yes, i'm ancient) and my dad telling me "Pascal?! What is that crap, if you were a boy you'd be writing compilers in assembly" when I was 14. If that's not one of those hidden sexist cultural things which undercut one's self confidence, I'm not sure what is. I have been a linux user since 1997, and have attended several LUGs only to be hit on, disregarded, or publicly sexually harassed when giving presentations (on vi of all subjects!). It doesn't really make me want to have a lot do with LUGs.
Another issue I have observed is that males are protective of their in-groups in a professional and scholastic setting. These in-groups tend to make up the talent pool which upon which future start-ups are formed. In school we had several group projects, and none of the males in the top 2/3s of the class wanted me on their team, despite the fact that I usually placed in the top 5 on coding assignments(in class sizes of 60). It was like the third grade all over again. So there is a lot of self-segregation taking place. In fact, I'm not even sure why I'm writing this as these threads usually turn into a misogynistic circle jerk among the dominant male in-group of slashdot (and yes, I've seen many of these types of threads over the years around here).
FWIW, I totally disagree with changing classes to be more "girl" friendly as TFA suggests, that's bogus. Algorithms and computational models were my favorite classes, despite being "dry" or "boring". Math departments didn't paint math pink to get up to 30% female (3x higher than CS/EE by most counts). It's a cultural issue which must be addressed. And you can start by taking down the pr0n in the computer labs(yes, there was pr0n printed out and posted in my undergraduate computer labs, boys will be boys, right?!)
OTOH, I've found my career in IT to be satisfying and worth the trouble. It has the flexibility and high pay that a new mom needs, ironically enough. Try finding that in "women's work".
First Post confirms that a big part of the problem is that women are judged by their appearance rather than engineering skills.
Why is it so intrinsically difficult for people to recognize that even being human that we are still animals with animal drives? In order of strength the drives work out to: #1 Drive to eat (or survive); #2 Drive to mate
As a species we don't tend to get all secretive and weird about the eating thing. (excluding rarities such as anorexia, bolimia,
Men and Women aren't the same. (relax, I am speaking in accurate generalities here) Woman tend to be predisposed to spending a large quantity of time trying to improve their appearance at least partly because as animals they want or expect to be judged on their appearance. Lipstick, make up and other 'primping' details ARE NOT DONE 'FOR' THE WOMAN WHO IS DOING IT. She doesn't spend the day with a mirror in front of her living out a narcissisticly thrilling life. It is done for those who are looking. (She doesn't want to fail at mating either! Plus it improves all of her dealings with other people...)
Women don't think the same. Why in gods name would you expect them to be interested in the same things? (a generality!!!) The logic that creates an engineer doesn't directly create happiness or success. (even success in #2!) The tendency of women to have a greater ability to deal with social situations and to create harmony does more to create this happiness/success. The tendency to build consensus is an incredible talent and would be very valuable in business if it was tied to the testosterone laden drive to control. (but I suspect the drive to control would kill a gift for consensus...)
Why doesn't anyone bemoan the disparity in the number of men who enjoy shopping for clothing, want make up, or spend hours 'gossiping'? How come no one is trying to artificially guide men to these pursuits? It is because there isn't income to be had from these things.
As a toddler my parents couldn't stop me from taking my toys apart and putting them back together again. I came from the factory with these tendencies that are 'male'. No woman should be stopped from exploring a choices in life and career because of her gender. But expecting women to be churned out with 3d spacial awareness and an interest in engineering at the same rate as men is insane.
Let woman make their choices without restriction including the artificial idea that their choices should be similar to men's choices and don't bemoan those choices when they tend to be different from men's. The differences create a world that we would want to live in. (and a world where we have a chance of satisfying #2)