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FBI Arrests Neteller Execs

Posted by CowboyNeal on from the jig-is-up dept.

Alcibaides writes "In a follow-up to the 2006 law attacking Internet gambling, the FBI arrested two former Neteller executives in 'connection with the creation and operation of an Internet payment services company that facilitated the transfer of billions of dollars of illegal gambling proceeds.' Apparently, the execs were 'ambushed' as they passed through the U.S. on connecting flights. Consequently, Neteller has dropped all gambling-related activity to U.S. customers, a move not expected for several months."

19 of 379 comments (clear)

  1. WTF? by vertinox · · Score: 4, Insightful
    FTFA:

    NETELLER suspended trading its shares on the London Stock Exchange in light of the detention of founding members Stephen Lawrence and John Lefebvre. Besides owning stock in NETELLER, the two do not hold any positions with the company. I thought the whole point of being a shareholder was that you couldn't be charged for the wrong doing of the corporation?
    --
    "I am the king of the Romans, and am superior to rules of grammar!"
    -Sigismund, Holy Roman Emperor (1368-1437)
    1. Re:WTF? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Not only that, if the linked article is accurate, it doesn't seem that they broke the laws while in the United States. US citizens and banks did. They seem to have simply offered a service online; the service was even based outside the US.

      This also serves to point out another problem with US laws--they are so damn imprecise, broad, so encompassing, that it's simply up to the prosecution to pick and choose who they want to send to prison. Prosecutorial discretion, usually leveraged wisely, has now just become another tool to further political goals and new types of discrimination.

      This is like an American posting on an internet site hosted in Germany something that flies against hate speech laws in Germany from his home computer. Then, while traveling in Germany on a connecting flight to Italy, getting arrested. Ridiculous...and dangerous--this sets up the possibility of backlash as precedent for US citizens traveling to foreign countries to be arrested for "crimes" that were not illegal and performed in the US but flies in the face of foreign laws.

    2. Re:WTF? by westlake · · Score: 4, Insightful
      it doesn't seem that they broke the laws while in the United States. US citizens and banks did, the service was even based outside the US.

      This is the Kazaa defense. The Allofmp3.com defense.

      It doesn't matter where the casino is based. It matters that the casino was being marketed to customers in the U.S. It matters that the casino was accepting payments from U.S. accounts.

      If you have assets in the states that can be seized, they will be seized. If you have people in the states who can be arrested, they will be arrested.

      These are the ground rules when you set up shop off-shore.

  2. Worrying... by ZzzzSleep · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Note to self....
    Don't ever take a flight that stops over in the US if I've done something that the US might not like, even if it's perfectly legal in my country.

    --
    Emerald Astrology
    1. Re:Worrying... by moxley · · Score: 3, Insightful

      I can explain it. It's called the "our-government-passes-vaguely-worded-laws-then-in tperets-them-however-they-like-in-order-to-do-what ever-the-fuck-they-want-to-whoever-whenever" rule; (and they don't let little things like constitutions, sovereign borders, human rights, or rule of law dissuade them). You may not have heard of this rule yet, it was attached as a last minute amendment to a spending bill. (yes, I think it's time to remake that old schoolhouse rock).

  3. Fun while it lasted. by squirrl811 · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Well, I played too much online poker anyways.

    I don't see why the federal government is making such a huge deal out of online gambling, aside from the fact that it is currently not taxed. I don't really think the government deserves any more money, but I'd rather pay a small tax on my gaming than have it outlawed as some mysteriously corrupt moral issue. Other than taxation, how is this any different from the government endorsed lottery or allowed casinos in Atlantic City and Vegas?

    1. Re:Fun while it lasted. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Insightful
      And you trust their software to shuffle the cards without bias?

      It would be stupid for them to cheat. All that matters to them is that people are playing. Once they have that it's a license to print money. The real risk of online poker is cheating from other players. And they take that seriously. I've written software for one to help them analyze playing patterns and detect collusion. They *want* the games to be as fair as possible. It's their best strategy.

    2. Re:Fun while it lasted. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Why would an online casino stack the deck? They make money no matter who wins. The more people playing, the more money they make. If players suspected any sort of Tom-foolery they might leave. The casinos have way more to lose than they have to gain by doing it.

    3. Re:Fun while it lasted. by Pfhreakaz0id · · Score: 4, Insightful

      I have a database of 80,000 hands of online poker (which is small potatoes compared to some). Everything is in statitistical line with what it should be (and yes, I've even ran queries of how often I flop a pair, etc.).

      The house has no interest in stacking the deck. They are making a crapload. The people who say this are generally people who lost a bunch of money playing online poker, probably because (GASP) they aren't very good.

      --
      DO NOT DISTURB THE SE
  4. Those executives should've gotten into warmaking. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

    The warmaking industry is apparently a far safer place for an executive to be. After all, their products are only being used to kill people. It's not like they're offering a completely voluntary service like gambling, which of course is among the most terrible things that can be done. I mean, how dare somebody be given the ability to spend their money as they choose!

  5. US is trying to enforce its law on the whole world by viking80 · · Score: 5, Insightful

    It is worrisome how the US is trying to enforce its law on the whole world.

    Many companies/people operate fully within the law of the land they live in. If this is breaking a US law, then the US should work with that government to harmonize the laws.

    This is similar to how Muslim courts found danish cartoonist guilty of depicting mohammed, and condemned them to death.

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    don't cut it off www.mgmbill.org
  6. Just too strange for words by Tet · · Score: 5, Insightful
    the FBI arrested two former Neteller executives in 'connection with the creation and operation of an Internet payment services company that facilitated the transfer of billions of dollars of illegal gambling proceeds.'

    Leaving aside for a moment the ridiculous two faced nature of American anti-gambling laws, this is just beyond a joke. As I understand it, the two former execs in question had left the company before the SAFE Port Act was passed. So they've been arrested for setting up a company that is 100% legal in their country of origin, and was legal at the time in the USA as well (in fact, it's still legal for non-gambling related payments), and they no longer have anything to do with the company in question, aside from still holding shares.

    "Land of the free", huh? I'm lost for words. The American legal system is just a joke.

    --
    "The invisible and the non-existent look very much alike." -- Delos B. McKown
    1. Re:Just too strange for words by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Insightful

      And it takes an even more twisted mind not to understand that to be arrested is the ESSENCE of loss of freedom. You think sitting in a cell doesn't count until you've been convicted?

  7. Re:US is trying to enforce its law on the whole wo by viking80 · · Score: 4, Insightful

    What you are suggesting is very dangerous. If I put up a web page, it should sufficethat I comply with all local laws.

    If I have to consider the laws of all nations in the world, I pretty much have to hire attorneys from each of the contries to review my website.
    And I can not:
    1. Enjoy fredom of expression (Illegal all over, including china)
    2. Critizise leaders (putin, il-jung-sum, most communists and others)
    3. Advertize alcoholic beverages (Illegal in many arab countires)
    4. Have any sexual material (again illegal in many countires)
    5. Have any religious material worshipping any other gods than allah
    6. Have any religious material worshipping any other gods than jhave
    7. Have any religious material worshipping any other gods than
    8. Download music(illegal in USA)

    An in many cases illegal means "To be stoned to death"

    Is this what you advocate?

    --
    don't cut it off www.mgmbill.org
  8. Folding Your Opponent's Hand by Doc+Ruby · · Score: 4, Insightful

    The offline casinos, not just in the US, must love this action. I wonder how much they paid for it?

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    --
    make install -not war

  9. Re:Not US Citizens... by EvanED · · Score: 5, Insightful

    The only wrinkle in this case is that it is my understanding they committed the offense while not in the US.

    The only wrinkle?! That's the difference between not committing a crime and committing one!

  10. How does this help us at all? by walnutmon · · Score: 3, Insightful

    I just bought a bunch of poker books and after a trip to the bahamas to play poker with a bunch of the pros, my interest in poker has gone back up. I just reopend my neteller account and was ready for action. Oops!

    So really, is there any reason for this law? I mean, not a reason for the government, but for the people, you know... who the goverment should be making laws for.

    Why does the US Government feel that they are entitled to get a cut of every single thing that we do? We payed taxes on the money we play poker with, AND if you make enough playing poker, you have to pay taxes on that! So what the hell do they want? Do they want to take a tax on every single hand played?

    This is really just a disgusting show by our goverment where they are not even trying to be subtle in showing us that they can fuck with us whenever they want to.

    --
    You take it, I don't want it...
  11. Re:Not US Citizens... by the+eric+conspiracy · · Score: 3, Insightful

    US law apparently says that you can be guilty of an offense without ever going there.

    Most countries would agree with that stance. Suppose you sat north of the US Canadian border and started launching RPGs into the US? Don't you think that it would pretty reasonable for the US to figure that you have violated US laws by that action even though you have not entered the US?

    Or suppose I shipped food into Canada labelled as baby formula when it contained Botulitis toxin? Wouldn't you think that Canada would figure that I had violated Canadian law?

    Some of the comments in this thread are utteerly ridiculous in thier views of what a nation regards as its sovereign rights.

  12. What's really interesting... by mpaque · · Score: 3, Insightful

    is that these guys are not officers of the company, or employees. They are stockholders.

    These two gentlemen founded what was a perfectly legal business in the Isle of Man, Neteller PLC, in 1999. Mr Lawrence resigned as a non-executive director of the Company on 13 October 2006 having stepped down as non-executive chairman of the Company on 11 May 2006. Mr Lefebvre resigned as a non-executive director of the Company on 15 December 2005.

    With the passage of the "Unlawful Internet Gambling Enforcement Act of 2006" the activities of Neteller PLC in regard to transferring funds of US citizens for the purpose of gambling became illegal.

    Think it through. If you founded, or are an 'owner' by virtue of stock holdings, of a company whose activities are declared illegal somewhere in the world, and you happen to pass through a territory of that country, you could be held, your passport take away, without recourse. Before you hop on that next international flight, is every company in your retirement plan's mutual funds squeaky clean in all places you might touch down?