Apple Responds to MOAB

frdmfghtr writes "Apple has released what appears to be the first security update as a result of the "Month of Apple Bugs." While the Apple site doesn't explicitly say that the fix was a result of the MOAB, it does point to a sample Quicktime file that triggers the overflow flaw (well, sort of...it says the file is there but doesn't provide any links)."

Comments

Response

[99BottlesOfBeerInMyF]

So what is the proper response to the MOAB people? They are revealing real bugs, some of which could be exploitable. Ignoring them leads to decreased security. At the same time they have behaved very irresponsibly with regard to those bugs they have found, not notifying the vendor and providing time to fix before publication, nor following the route of immediate disclosure, the MOAB people seem to think it is all right to sit on bugs they find until the most convenient time for them to gain publicity. Worse, they intentionally space out the publication of the bugs, making a Dev/QA cycle to fix them have to wait till the end or commit to missing some. As such they have maximized the time of exposure for these bugs which encourages worms by giving malware authors as much time as possible.

Obviously increasing the security of end users is not the top priority. Accurately informing the public does not also seem to be their top concern since they named their project "Month of Apple Bugs" while many of the bugs they've announced are in third-part code (some of it cross-platform) that has nothing to do with Apple. It seems to me all they care about is publicity and sensationalizing themselves in the hope that they can capitalize upon it. Looking at them in that light, it makes sense to spread out the announcement of these bugs and not inform vendors beforehand because it increases the likelihood that people will be compromised, giving them the opportunity to go to news outlets ands say, "see we told you this might happen."

Given all of the above, what can be done? I'd certainly never want to work with people who eschew responsible disclosure and are interested only in themselves, nor would I trust them. But any press is good press, and most people are not security people and won't even understand what it is these people are doing, they'll just know they got press for security research. Is there any way the security or computing community can discourage this crap in the future and make it clear that irresponsible behavior like this is unacceptable?

Re:Response

[99BottlesOfBeerInMyF]

And I think you are way off here saying they are only looking out for themselves.

It is the only reason for this method of disclosure I can think of.

Have you every attempted to do a disclosure with Apple? It's nearly impossible.

What? They have a bug reporting form on their Website. You don't even have to give them any info on who you are. I've submitted bugs that were fixed in short order, although none were security issues. My coworker a few offices down submitted a local escalation security bug though and it was fixed a few weeks later and he was given credit in the the security update. How is that "nearly impossible?"

These 30 odd bugs they are going to release would take apple YEARS to fix if this disclosure method was not taken.

That's just bullshit. If they found the bugs this month and handed them all to the respective vendors then announced the results at the end of next month all the vendors would fix them before the announcement.

I'm sure both of these researchers are Apple users or such a project wouldn't have taken place.

At least one of these "researchers" has performed the month of bugs thing on other vendors, one of which was cancelled when he was paid off, as I understand it.

It's my belief that they are sick of Apple's antics and simply want results.

If they followed the schedule I listed above, and Apple did not fix them within that one month dev/QA time these guys could scream bloody murder and I'd be right behind them. They'd be following responsible industry practices and Apple would be in the wrong. I'm firmly convinced they did not do this because they were pretty sure Apple would fix the bugs and they would get only minor press once, instead of ongoing sensationalist press.

Also, before you go to far in defending these guys, you do know they are now accused of illegally exploiting one of their bugs against users before announcing it, right?

Re:Response

[99BottlesOfBeerInMyF]

Spoken like a true Mac apologist. How dare anybody manipulate any information, timing, or accuracy to make my computer company look bad! Welcome to the world that Microsoft lives in, here's your initiation T-shirt.

Who cares about making Apple look bad. I'm concerned about the very real security implications of these actions. They're putting people at risk in order to get press and ignoring the established practices of the industry. You can argue for delayed disclosure based upon vendor response. You can argue for immediate disclosure. Now do tell me the argument for not informing the vendor and not informing the public until a specific day. It doesn't matter what vendor they are doing this to, it is still unethical.

Where is this outrage when an unpatched Windows bug is announced?

There are valid reasons for announcing an unpatched bug in some situation and I fully support that. In some cases there are even valid reasons for announcing a bug to the public immediately without disclosing it to the vendor first. That said, this is neither of those cases. There is no security justification for immediate disclosure in this case. And, they aren't disclosing immediately, but are delaying disclosure.

Admittedly, flaws in 3rd party software don't really seem to have any business in the MOAB list, but of the 23 issues they've reported so far I believe only 3 have been for 3rd party apps.

That would be 6, not 3... or approaching 1/3 of them.

The fact is that yes, there is a "more responsible" way that vulnerabilities should be handled by the MOAB team. However, Apple could do a better job as well.

I think that is understating the case. They're accused of actually using the bugs to exploit users before announcing the bugs. That goes way beyond "less responsible" and enters the realm of "probably criminal." As for disclosure times, When you're dealing with a vendor that provides no feedback and has a history of slow bug fixes and you think the vulnerability might be being exploited in the wild and there is a work around, immediate public disclosure makes sense and increases overall security. When you're dealing with a bug in OmniWeb that is almost certainly not being exploited, it makes no sense. These guys provide immediate feedback and turn around security related bugs in hours. Yet the MOAB project not only did not give them hours, they never bothered to inform them of the bug at all and they had to learn of it from someone who read the MOAB and reported it to them from there. That is indefensible.

The whitewashing job Apple has done demanded (to some people) a highly publicized "retaliation" to prove that, indeed, Apple's feces doesn't smell like roses after all.

Whitewashing job? Do elaborate. How is Apple covering up security problems or misinforming people?

This is the message that just doesn't seem to get across to Macintosh users, and until they not only get the idea that their OS isn't 100% secure, and that they need to take precautions just like Windows (and Linux) users then people like this MOAB team will continue seeking publicity more than seeking to "responsibly" get vulnerabilities reported and resolved.

Umm, but Mac users to date haven't had to take any security measures to have a negligible possibility of malware infection. That could change in future and Apple should be proactive about keeping it that way, but you can always spend more effort on security. I'd like Apple to do more, but so far they have been "good enough" and I haven't seen them misinforming anyone. Some of their Ads may oversimplify, but that is a good thing since most people don't want complex messages about computers security. "Get a mac and you're safer than if you have Windows" is about as complex as the average consumer can handle and remember.

Re:Response

[99BottlesOfBeerInMyF]

Haven't you just argued both sides of the same point? There's nothing Mac users need to do to protect their machines, yet the MOAB people are accused of exploiting these bugs in the wild? Either one or the other of these statements is, therefore, incorrect.

No, that is not the case. Apple has an install base of millions. Colloquy users, on OS X, using that software actively on a channel where it is being exploit, in that one week window between the discover/alleged use and fix make up a negligible part of those millions. Adding together all the exploits used in the wild, including trojans, still accounts for a negligible part. I'm more likely to lose data because I got in a car crash which destroyed my laptop than I am to be remotely exploited.

But that does not mean that the platform is safe.

This statement is meaningless. Nothing is ever "safe." Even if you have a mythical, perfect computer security system there is the possibility that Illuminati agents will kidnap you, use drug and hypnotherapy, and make you copy all you data onto disc and give them a copy then forget about it. Security is relative. OS X is much better than Windows, but much less secure than OpenBSD. The point is to keep your customers happy by providing most of the with security that is appropriate. Given the lack of widespread exploitation on OS X, they are succeeding thus far.

"Black Hats" aren't hacking as much anymore just for kicks

There are lots of reasons OS X is less likely to be exploited, including market share, default settings, and the skill set of most malware authors. New worms already attack multiple Windows vulnerabilities to increase their chances of spreading. There have been cross-platform worms. There are worms that mine data, like online account info and CC#'s The motivation for adding an OS X exploit is there, if it is easy enough. There are a number of worms written for purposes like prestige, attention, and profit that would be more effective if they targeted the Mac. To date, it has not been easy enough.

Where is the money in hacking a Mac? How many financial institutions rely on Macintoshes for storing sensitive data?

If you're being directly attacked by a skilled researcher, the Mac is not the best platform. Use a locked down SELinux setup. That does not apply to most people, however. For the data on average laptops that widespread malware is targeting, macs have plenty of it. Half of the Windows machines you hit are going to have nothing of worth because they are owned by people in relatively poor areas, many pirating Windows. Mac users are relatively affluent by comparison.

How many Macs does the DoD use?

This is not really relevant do to the same reasons as above, but it is an interesting question. How many do they use? What naval intelligence? What about the CIA. I know some CIA operatives had powerbooks because they handled large satellite photographs and maps better. As for other uses, I don't know. Do you?

The absence of evidence of active hacking against the Mac platform is not proof that it is secure.

The relative lack of hacking against the Mac platform is one reason why it is more secure than Windows. Nothing is ever, "secure."

That's the logical fallacy that Apple is happy to perpetuate, and that the "Mac Nation" will happily swallow. That's the Kool-Ade that I'd like to see fewer people drink.

99% of people don't know what an "OS" is. If you tell them that Macs are not "secure" and neither is Windows and they need to take a course in computer security to learn safe practices, they'll ignore you as another techno-babbling geek. You might convince them to stay with Windows instead of switching to a Mac because both are insecure, right? Practically speaking the message, "get a mac and you're less likely to have security problems" is more likely to increase the overall security in our current environment than anything else. It gets people to switch to a company that needs to keep customers happy or it loses money and it gives MS incentive to make their machines more secure. Attempts to confuse this message or make it more complex are likely to result in net decreased security.

I posted this elsewhere too...

[jpellino]

This fix is in line with the typical timing and attention given Apple security updates - relatively quick and competent.

This pretty much busts MOAB's claims of Apple's ignorance and/or hostility at bug reports.

Apple has been doing better than most, fixing 99.9% of their problems through their established channels without MOAB's brand of nonsense. Count all the bugs fixed thru the normal dev bug report process. Count all those fixed by MOAB's. Compare.

IIRC nearly a third of their "Apple Bugs" are 3rd party problems to begin with.

MOAB are still flaming Apple Inc., Apple users, and anyone else who critiques their methods, and it's gotten personal and insulting. They come out swinging their fists at the Apple community, then cry foul because someone hits back.

If Apple users make you cry, go kick your tires.
You want the world to believe that you're a responsible developer that anyone will listen to or hire, prove it in daylight.

Re:I posted this elsewhere too...

[99BottlesOfBeerInMyF]

Apple is generally regarded as being slower than Microsoft at patching problems.

Yeah, I've read those studies in detail. The Window of exposure for exploits was much higher with Microsoft products and they only cover publicly acknowledged security bugs. My info says less than half of the security bugs MS finds internally are fixed ever. I don't know about the situation at Apple.

...but according to this study from 2006 it took them 91 days on average to fix known exploits.

You're confusing the term "exploit" with "potential vulnerability." A lot of Windows vulnerabilities are disclosed when someone notices an exploit in the wild. This has never been the case with Apple, as far as I recall. The window of exploitation is the time between when blackhats start exploiting a hole and when the vendor fixes that hole. That is the number that counts and MS is way behind on it.

Yes, of course, it's silly to call it the "Month of Apple Bugs" when they are also reporting exploits in third party software. Unfortunately, it's also understandable - the fact that many security problems in Windows are caused by third party software does not stop people blaming Microsoft for the insecurity of the Windows platform.

Yeah and if an uninformed guy off the street confused these I'd understand, but these are supposed to be security researchers. When that happens, it isn't a mistake, it is knowingly promoting a falsehood.

Given that quite a few of these third party exploits are privilege escalation (eg instant root), it is Apples problem.

Certainly I'm all in favor of Apple finishing their MAC implementation and locking down applications and threads, but the chances of being exploited right now is so small that it is not an issue for customers yet.

I quite agree that these "Month of X bugs" things seem to be quite irresponsible and even immature. I'm not sure what the point of them is, except to make a bad situation worse.

The point is to generate press for the "researchers" at all costs, even if it means promoting the creation of worms in the hopes that they can get more press out of that.

Re:ummm

[DLG]

Yeah, it is hard to accuse Apple of dodging the project by explicitly highlighting their 'contribution'. I wonder what the author wanted to see.

"Oh Noez, W3 WUZ PWNED by the MO@B Kr3w!!!!"

Really pretty respectful to simply describe the bug, and describe the exploit that is specifically focussed on that bug, pointing the the source of it.

I think that MOAB did focus attention on some real issues although they had to stretch out some issues to multiple days (several DMG file structure errors which essentially were DOS at worst (a corrupt file shouldn't cause crashes it is true, but that can be one day worth of bugs since the fix is essentially 'validate file more effectively before loading it')

As far as the questions about things like diskutil restoring permissions on files that have lost their SUID bits due to being modified, thats a solid issue, although diskutil is run by administrative account from what I recall, and really points back to the question of how do you avoid having someone with an account on a machine they have in their home or office from getting root access, and then not doing stupid things to their machine. Basicly the same can be said about any system that allows someone root access. There is no OS that can stop SU from fraking things up as far as I know.

Anyway, I think the real truth is that there are no great showstoppers. Omniweb closed their security flaw the day it was released (and wondered why they couldn't have been contacted prior to the publicity. Any argument that 'Apple ignores bug reports' sort of goes to hell when talking about third party software issued). Even worse was day two's focus on VLC a project that has less relevance on Apple's OS than it does in the Linux world. I think they should have focused on things Apple needed to fix, rather than things that break on Apples, just like they break everywhere, without Apple having much to do with it at all, nor any real influence on the developers. I mean technically you could put any Window security issue into the Apple MOAB since Windows apps run on Macs these days. Is that helpful? Not really.

So I would say that Apple has shown a willingness to respond to a bug report, I have not really seen them creating negative press against the MOAB folks, and there hasn't really been a showstopper that was strong enough to get mainstream press.

Bugs...not Melissa pws j00

[gsfprez]

many of the bugs are problems that are just outright bizare in thinking of how they'd get executed.

"Here is a malformed HFS+ filesystem that can potentially cause a kernel panic and cause arbitrary code execution. you should all be quaking in your boots."

now just one damn minute... first, you have to get me a DMG, which, apparently, will instantly panic the kernel. Fine. so what? In real life, i'd throw out the dmg file, download it again, it would panic again, and i'd give up.

I'm missing (and it could just be me) how that's in any way exploitable in any meaningful sense.

i think the problem is that MOAB is putting on a show of bugs.. and nothing more. These are bugs that either made it past the guys in Cupertino, or they just didn't see them as that big of a deal, and figured they'd get to them eventually.

Some of these bugs are bad and could cause Macs the world over to get pwn3d and get used to do whatever you can do with an pwn3d Windows box. Fine.

But many of them are just, well.. bugs that causes the system to crash. So the hell what? Without some kind of setup and extreme set of circumstances, the majority of the bugs here crash your system, and then you reboot...

Microsoft's problem has been "be a user on the internet with their software, get pwn3ed." I'm trying to see which of these bugs would give Mac users similar "functionality".

#21 requires a local user to take advantage of this escalation problem - on a machine that they are probably already the only user of

#20 is the same thing... as is #8, and #15.

the bulk of the others are "DoS, cause computer to crash with possibility of arbitrary code execution..." and that assumes the panic condition is consistent.

the only actual scary ones are #19 (not apple's software, and i don't even know if it could actually allow arbitrary code execution), #17, #1 (now fixed), #2 (not apple, and fixed), #4, and #20... so, 6... and 4 are left.

this is just stupid.. my machines are still buck naked on the internet, and i'm still not scared at all.

Re:So...Is The QT Flaw the Only Notable Bug?

[99BottlesOfBeerInMyF]

Do you think these people have a monopoly on finding bugs?

What people? Security researchers?

Once OS X gets enough market share to be worthwhile to blackhats you're going to see a lot worse.

OS X has enough market share and other features to motivate people to exploit it now, it just has not had enough to motivate people hard enough to get past the difficulties involved. There is also no guarantee that OS X's market share will increase or that it will become more attractive to hackers at a rate that is greater than it becoming more difficult to exploit.

If you think researchers releasing bugs to the public without waiting for the vendor to patch is bad then you really won't like it when someone discovers a vulnerability and uses it to create a worm themselves or sells it to someone else that will. This is only a taste of things to come.

Yeah, creating a zero-day worm is worse than just releasing the bugs in such a way as to make it more likely that someone else will create a worm. What is your point?