Repair Computer, Repurchase OS?

An anonymous reader asks: "Recently, I have been bit by a computer repair on an e-Machines computer that involved a system board replacement. Though this was strictly a repair, not an upgrade, neither MS or e-Machines will provide for activation of the system. Why should a user have to purchase another copy of XP after repairing a computer? The system board is listed on the e-Machines website, but costs 4x what an off-the-shelf board with the same chip-set/capabilities costs, and furthermore is not actually available. The e-Machines rep even said repurchasing XP was my only option. This seems to me patently unfair and of questionable legality. Is it possible that there are enough disgruntled consumers bit by this problem to generate a class-action lawsuit?"

Comments

Have you actually talked to Microsoft?

[Randolpho]

Seriously, have you talked to Microsoft yet? I've had the same or similar problems in the past, and had no trouble getting a new key issued. Just call them up. They might surprise you.

Re:Have you actually talked to Microsoft?

[Anonymous Coward]

Ditto. It's easy and takes around 15 minutes - call the 800 number that the activation screen presents to you, put in the number that it gives you, wait for it to say it cannot activate it and for it to bring on a real person for further help, explain what happened and they'll provide you a number for that. Works like a charm for me.

Re:Have you actually talked to Microsoft?

[FoamingToad]

Agreed. Talk to them. What does the OP have to lose?

In fact I recently had a pretty identical case to the original poster's query. A friend's e-machine had a blown mobo + processor due to a faulty PSU. I changed the parts across, booted, hit the product activation, phoned the Freephone support number and I didn't even need to speak to a person - the IVR system doled out a new activation code with no hassle.

Admittedly, if the activation hadn't gone as planned I'd just have dug out my VLK edition and performed an in-place upgrade...

F_T

Re:Have you actually talked to Microsoft?

[morgan_greywolf]

You're right.

The article poster might want to refer to this page on computer repair, which covers the OEM license. Generally, Microsoft will not require a new OS license for a motherboard replacement that is truly a replacement (i.e., same OEM/model). If you're trying to replace the box with a non-OEM motherboard, you're hosed, because this is not in compliance with the OEM license agreement, which is different from the retail EULA.

If you're replacing with the same/equivalent OEM motherboard, then just state immediately that the repair/upgrade was made in compliance with the OEM EULA right away, as this will save you a lot of time and hassle.

Re:Have you actually talked to Microsoft?

[Jesterboy]

One thing is, the people in India handling the activation really don't care too much, and, as long as you don't volunteer certain information, will happily hand out the magic 42 digit number that makes everything work. I've even used this to transfer an XP OEM license to an entirely different computer (shhh!).

However, it sounds like the problem is coming from the install media; perhaps a partition on the drive that copies over a disk image, or maybe an OEM install that checks for the correct hardware? I think the best thing to do would be to go download/find/borrow a real Windows XP disk of the correct "flavor"; probably Home, possibly Media Center, etc. If he does have the actual disk, he could try creating a pre-install environment using BartPE and then adding in the extra drivers for his mobo, but it's probably better to just find a disk.

Once he actually gets it installed, he'll probably have trouble activating it, which will involve calling Microsoft and going through the following song and dance:
1. Give the computer your product key.
2. It will fail, and transfer you to a representative.
3. They ask for the last 6 digits you gave to the automated system; give it to them and state you are reinstalling Windows XP.
4. They will ask you several questsions, answer as follows:
a) Is it installed only on this computer? Yes.
b) Did you pirate the software or (sometimes) are you using the same OEM disk? Yes.
c) Are you reinstalling Windows XP? Yes.

Usually at this point they will give you the magic 42 digit number to make your computer yours again. Occasionally, they will ask about hardware upgrades, in which case you have two options: 1) tell them the truth and don't get your copy to activate, or 2) outright lie. If your scruples won't let you do the latter, you can tell the representative you have something else to go do (probably true), and call back later, hoping for a less diligent employee. As I stated above, I've used this process to switch Windows XP Home OEM licenses to computers with entirely different hardware, so I can't imagine a motherboard giving you too much trouble.

Re:Have you actually talked to Microsoft?

[FoamingToad]

I thought it was 6 * 7 = 42 digits, this may be why you're failing. Sorry, couldn't resist.

I found that the system had a bit of trouble recognising two subsequent instances of the same digit, and slowed down my input a bit. Sure, it was a bit tedious, but got an activation code from the IVR just fine. However I did notice the automated line was more than a bit glitchy with dropouts and distortion on the line - it's the type of thing the telco I used to work for wouldn't have considered acceptable.

F_T

Re:Have you actually talked to Microsoft?

[dapsychous]

You don't even have to hit random numbers. Just press '0' (zero, for you arabic number-ly challenged folks) when it asks you if you are calling to activate windows xp. it won't work unless it has asked you a question.

That, or openly ridicule voice recognition systems. Maybe you'll hurt it's feelings and it won't want to talk to you anymore?

Re:Have you actually talked to Microsoft?

[Mister Whirly]

Your backup image won't work if certain hardware (motherboard, processor, etc.) has changed. If your hard drive dies, no sweat. But if anything major fails, you are SOL.

They have no way of knowing.

[phorest]

They simply have no way of knowing.

That's always a problem with OEM OS loads.This Quick Reference Should clear up some issues for those who are not already aware.

I always figure in a new OEM copy whenever a board goes. You'll waste more time than is neccessary to try to save $139.00, but you saved a lot of money buying that replacement board from NewEgg. It sucks but other than sending it to (in this case EMachines) neither Microsoft -or- EMachines have no idea what happened to your hardware that your OEM OS is tied to.

Call for an activation code...

[VitrosChemistryAnaly]

I've had copies of XP that MS wouldn't activate over the web. What did I do? Call the number they give you. The customer rep will ask why you need to re-activate XP. I just say that I did a reinstall. That's it. I've never had problems the 10 or so times that I've done it.

Have you actually called MS? It's pretty friggin' easy.

Re:FUD

[notanatheist]

in the US it is 888-571-2048. I think. Haven't had to dial it today yet so no phone in front of me. When the stupid recording is done talking press '0'. Tell the beehotch to "transfer you anyway" so you can get a live person from India. Be very up front about the process and take no slack. Give them th 42 digits a nice firm 6 at a time so they can understand you. Before they ask you anything tell them it is the only PC it is on and you have to activate because you replaced the motherboard. They will sometimes ask again what you just told them. Whatever info you give them up front will typically reduce the other stupid questions like them asking what kind of computer it is, where did you buy it, what is the 25 character product key, etc.. Keep in mind they have no idea what your system is and what stores there are to buy from so if you get those questions you can answer any way you like. Name of computer? PEBKAC. Store? JoMommas. Simple as that. I have to do it nearly everyday with the number of computers I repair.

Re:increments

[PFI_Optix]

My current XP license was originally installed on this:

Intel D850MD motherboard
Intel Pentium 4 2.2 Ghz CPU
512 MB Rambus
Radeon 7000
80 GB Western Digital HDD
CD-RW
DVD-ROM

I then replaced the motherboard with a Soyo P4S Dragon Ultra (or something like that) and bought generic DDR RAM.
Then I bought a GeForce 5200 FX
When my motherboard's AGP port got flaky, I replaced it with a Soyo P4S-D
Then I added an Adaptec 1200A and two Seagate 120 MB HDDs on RAID 0 and reinstalled my OS on them
When my 5200FX was damaged by THAT AGP port getting flaky, I bought an Abit IC7-MaxIII and went with a different Radeon 7000 due to budget constraints.
I finally got around to getting a better CPU--a P4 3.0E and switched to high-end Corsair RAM.
Then I bought a Radeon X850 Pro as the last semi-high-end component to go in this system prior to a planned upgrade and switch to Vista this summer.

Some time In there I replaced my optical drives with a DVD+-RW, and several small hard drives have been in and out to back up data as I changed partitioning schemes twice.

I've had to call MS three times to have the license reactivated. All three times I've explained that I was replacing bad components or upgrading various things, and all three times they've not given me any grief on reactivation. The anonymous submitter is either doing something wrong, is clueless, or is trolling.

Not an activation issue

[Joe5678]

Judging from all the people telling him to get a new activation key from Microsoft, the summary isn't very clear, but this guys problem isn't an activation issue (I think). It's the fact that his OEM Windows disc will not load because it's now detecting that it's not an e-machines computer anymore. e-machines is the problem here.

Re:Not an activation issue

[FoamingToad]

You may have a point - although what was said above is still worth a try. The e-machine I had in received an OEM board - and changed processor architecture (Celeron -> Socket 939 AMD). However I just booted the machine up "to see what would happen" - to my surprise after an extra few minutes of thrashing the disc, the machine was up and asking for reactivation.

If it had required a rebuild, I may have looked at my 7-in-1 disc or the VLK edition, but as it happened no reinstallation was necessary - XP recovered itself sufficiently.

However I concede the point that you usually need to do an in-place upgrade when changing such a major part of your hardware environment.

F_T

Re:Not an activation issue

[Endo13]

You're probably right, but he's still not completely out of luck. If he can get his hands on a Windows XP disc that's the same version (ie Home/Pro, same SP number included, etc) as what was originally installed, he should be able to use the OEM key included with the machine to get Windows installed. He'll then have to call Microsoft and tell them the hard drive went bad, mainboard was replaced, etc, and he should have a fully functional standalone Windows XP installation. Actually, it's even easier than that. All he needs do is get his hands on an OEM disk for whatever version of XP he has a key for (most likely XP Home). XP install keys differentiate only between Home, Pro, or Media Center, and then between OEM or Retail. Nothing else matters. I work at a PC repair shop, and I've reinstalled WinXP on Dells, HPs, Compaqs, Emachines, and more very often. I use the same disks for all of them, unless the customer happens to have the disks (or restore partion on the hard drive) provided them by the manufacturer.

When it comes to activation, it will most likely tell you that your product key is invalid. I'm not sure exactly why (my best guess is that they use some kind of generic volume key when they install it the first time), but all you need to is click the "Telephone" button, hit the drop-down menu for your country, and then dial the toll-free number provided. (1-888-571-2048 for USA) You'll get an automated system that blathers on until it finally says "ok, let's get started." At this point, hit 0 on your phone (the system will tell you something like "I see you would like to talk to a representative blah blah blah"), then hit 1. This will connect you to a live human (in India I believe) who can talk more or less plain English, and at any rate understands the numbers you tell them a great deal better than the automated system does. They'll ask you for the first 6 numbers, tell you they need a few seconds to validate it, then they'll ask you some questions. (What software are you activating today? Is this the first time you are activating this software? On how many other computers is this software installed?) After one or two of these questions they'll ask you for the rest of the numbers (you don't need to read the first 6 again). Then they'll say they need a few seconds to validate those, and ask you a couple of the questions (which may or may not be the exact same questions they asked you 30 seconds earlier). Then they'll read off the confirmation numbers 3 at a time, which you'll type in the boxes, and that's pretty much it.

Re:Not an activation issue

[Fez]

Even better: The phone system says to *tell* it the numbers, but the numbers on the phone keypad work. They even work for yes/no 1=yes, 2=no. I hate, hate, hate voice recognition systems. Being able to just push the digits like mad is much easier, and speeds the process way up.

After punching in the numbers, the system still fails to activate -- because Microsoft locks major brand OEM keys to a single automated activation -- but then you do not have to repeat all 50-brazillion digits vocally to the person on the other end.

I'm not sure where Microsoft's call center is for that, but I suspect they have several. Once I got into a queue where the recording and the person on the other end both had very British accents.

And now back to the topic at hand: I've seen many motherboards replaced in OEM PCs, and never had a problem getting a key from Microsoft, but I also used generic OEM media and not the CD provided by the manufacturer.

You are screwed..

[daniel422]

I just went through this fiasco while repairing a mobo failure on an HP Media Center PC. As with most OEM PCs these days it came pre-installed with everything and featured only a recovery disk (disc image) for system restore. Changing, upgrading, or altering many of the components onboard (particularly the motherboard) will result in this disk becoming useless. If you read Microsoft's ifo regarding OEM distributions -- they are totally OK with this. THe OEM is only required to provide a recovery disk that lives and dies with the computer (which is practically defined as the motherboard). The OEM install and recovery disks are keyed to some identifier in the motherboard, which requires some hacking to use. I wound up purchasing a new OEM version of Media Center (since they don't make a regular version) from NewEgg and reinstalling everything.
I was pretty pissed. I felt like I had paid for this OS in the first place, I should have the right to reinstall it as necessary -- from hardware changes/failures/upgrades/whatever. It turns out you don't with most OEMs. A recovery disk is all they are required to provide.
Here's the link to the forum over at thegreenbutton.com (Windows Media Center site) that tells my tail of woe and what I learned.
http://thegreenbutton.com/forums/thread/160224.asp x
Basically, you're screwed without at least on OEM copy of Windows. Then you can at least hack it. If all you've got is a recovery disk than you are hosed. THe same goes for all software that is preinstalled on your drive. You got Word preinstalled? And you changed your mobo? Whoops--it's a new computer now! No software/OS for you!
I'd love to hear if someone's challenged this in court -- it seems pretty anti-consumer, although I'm sure OEMs save a ton of money and hassle with recovery disks....

If you swapped the exact same chipset, then...

[madhatter256]

If you had the board swapped with one that has the exact same chipset then Windows would not have picked up the change in motherboard. I have done this to many Emachines, Dells, and HPs. Sometimes I built them a whole new system, just same OEM license. Hell, the OEM license says that if the motherboard is defective, you don't have to buy a new license. In all those cases, the boards were defective and required a rebuild of the system. I never had to call MS to get a new activation key, not yet at least. Chances are what you have is an Intel chipset which are VERY picky if you swap the boards out without wanting to reinstall the OS. THe motherboard has to have the exact same chipset in order for XP to boot and not recognize the motherboard swap.

Re:Easy compared to what?

[Balthisar]

>>but can we please be absolute when using the word "easy"?

Actually, speaking absolutely, it *is* easy. Relatively speaking (in relation to how we think it should be) is when it becomes difficult.

Re:Easy compared to what?

[Anonymous Coward]

Plus, the windows activation screen provides you with a TTY number to call if you are deaf.

Bullshit

[Cervantes]

I've done this exact same process (not on an eMachine though, I won't touch those pieces of crap), and had no serious problems. The worst I've ever had is that the MS internet activation wouldn't work, and I had to call up the 800 number. As long as you have the Product Key sticker (which should be firmly attached to your shiny OEM boxen) you won't have any trouble.

Unless you're a total ass, that is. I've seen (yes, actually watched) people calling up MS Support, and as soon as they get through they launch into a 10 minute diatribe on how this is so horrible, they hate it, they want their key NOWNOWNOW or they're wiping that piece of shit and putting Linux on it. Then the MS rep usually tells them to go fuck themselves.

Hell, I've even put non-oem components in it, MS doesn't seem to care, although the mobo is probably the kicker as it'll have OEM bios and such, but I've still replaced those, called up and told them I replaced it because the manufacturer doesn't carry this replacement anymore, and they gave it to me anyways.

So, I call FUD on this crap. Class action my ass.

Re:Easy compared to what?

[644bd346996]

Oh, come on! Even for people with good hearing, understanding sombody in a loud call center in bangalore is hard. For somebody who uses a hearing aid, it can easily be impossible to communicate bidirectionally. And there are many people who have hearing aids but do not have access to a TTY. This is a realistic scenario, and one that microsoft must be prepared for. Remember, Microsoft chose to use activation. It is solely their responsibility to make it accessible to their customers.

Re:Read your license agreement.

[Intron]

ProCD, Inc. v. Zeidenberg decided this in 1996, even for an EULA that was not visible at the time of purchase. Great when the store won't accept returns of software that has been opened.

Re:Easy compared to what?

[KevinKnSC]

How about installing and activating everything in port, and then just backup the partition with g4u or the System Rescue CD? Then, if you do ever need to reinstall it, you just restore your already activated partition from a burned DVD? It's legal, faster, and is a much better way to do things even if you always have a highspeed connection.

I don't see how.

[SphericalCrusher]

I work in a mid-sized computer repair shop (I'm the lead tech actually) and we replace motherboards in e-machines all the time. I've even replaced one this week, and once it's done, I do a Windows XP repair on the new harddrive (due to recognizing the new motherboard and such and then activate by using Windows Activation through the telephone. After that, I proceed to load down motherboard drivers and download the rest of his critical updates... and so no so forth. Activating by telephone just consists of calling Microsoft, punching in the activation code, answering a couple of questions... and worst case scenario, explaining to them that you had to replace the motherboard (only if it's been activated one too many times). I've never ran into a situation where I just couldn't activate it.

emachines

[HermMunster]

I own and operate a computer repair shop. This past summer I had an inordinate number of emachines in with blown motherboards. It started with a series of spikes which affected the power supply and then blew the motherboard. For a while there I had so many come into the shop that I didn't know if it would ever stop. The end result was a replacement motherboard -- and not from emachines. I purchased better quality boards with a richer feature-set and installed new power supplies and reinstalled the OS. Most of the time I had to use the code on the side of the case. You should consider that.

This summer's run on emachine deaths is indicative of a very cheap power system in their design and probably should result in a class-action lawsuit itself, if ever the numbers are correlated.