US Set on Expansion of Security DNA Collection

An anonymous reader dropped us a link to this New York Times article about a 'vast expansion' of DNA sampling here in the US. A little-noticed rider to the January 2006 renewal of the 'Violence Against Women Act' allows government agencies to collect DNA samples from any individual arrested by federal authorities, and from every illegal immigrant held for any length of time by US agents. The goal is to make DNA collection as routine a part of detainment as fingerprinting and photography. Privacy experts and immigrant rights groups are decrying this initiative already. Many are also skeptical of lab throughput, as FBI analysts indicate this may increase intake by as much as a million samples per year. There is already a backlog of 150,000 samples waiting to be entered into the agency's database.

Comments

This has been done for a while over here.

[meringuoid]

For some time now, anyone arrested for any offence in the UK gets DNA samples taken and added to a national database. These samples are not destroyed nor are the records deleted even if you are released without charge, or found not guilty. There are now some 3.4 million samples on record, out of a country of some 60 million.

Of course, the innocent have nothing to fear from this. We Love Big Blair.

Re:This has been done for a while over here.

[Bogtha]

I suppose you're referring to this, which affected eleven schools in a single city, and like I posted elsewhere:

Documents released under the Freedom of Information Act show 11 schools in the city are using personal biometric data to identify pupils, but one said today they had suspended the practice, after a local politician voiced concerns.

A law passed by the government gave information on this to the public, and a politician acted on his constituents' behalves to stop it from continuing. Sure, it's a dumb move, but it's a dumb move that's out in the open and in the process of being corrected, and that is happening because in this case the political process is working properly.

So no, our government doesn't fingerprint children in schools, unless you count one city where it was tried and rejected by the public and politicians alike.

dna is cool

[operato]

i don't think keeping a dna database is much a problem. people just fear that the government would abuse this system and possibly set people up and what not. it just shows people don't trust democracy any more and that they definitely don't trust the people that they voted into power.

Re:dna is cool

[StuckInSyrup]

I live in a post-communist state. I believe in democracy. I allready learned not to fear the governement, but I definitely don't trust them.

Re:dna is cool

[toQDuj]

Another aspect is that people do not necessarily trust the police.

DNA gives them a device with which they can point at you and say: "He did it, his DNA was found on the scene". How are you going to disprove that? Perhaps you visited in the past, perhaps not at all. Maybe the wind blew a hair in.

Now suddenly, everyone with his or her DNA in the database is a suspect. Irrespective of the likelihood that you were in the area, otherwise engaged, or involved with the subject of the crime. Your status has been instantly degraded from "free citizen" to "potential suspect in ALL crimes".

Moreover, everyone with his or her DNA NOT in the database is much less a suspect. Think about that for a while.

A DNA test is a "closest match" test, and is only right about 99% of the time. People forget that, juries especially.

B.

Re:dna is cool

[pubjames]

This doesn't have anything to do with not trusting democracy.

Collecting extensive information about people and a "hand over your papers" style government, are more akin to fascist states and dictatorships.

They sacrifice our freedom in the name of "safety"

[spineboy]

There are many quotes by our forefathers regarding this. It's a slow death, a slippery slope. We must avoid national security cards, mass DNA fingerprinting, etc, otherwise we will become like the old Soviet state, where you were screwed if you didn't have your "papers".

scary quote from the article

[toQDuj]

Lynn Parrish is quoted saying: "Rapists are generalists. They don't just rape, they also murder."

brr.

I can see where this is heading. "Robbers don't just rob, they also murder." --> "Beggers don't just beg, they also murder." --> "People spitting on the ground don't just spit on the ground, they also murder."
Basically what she's saying is that all criminals are inherently equal, and potential murderers, and thus deserve to be treated in the worst way.

Now pray, do tell me that that is not a scary viewpoint.
B.

Re:scary quote from the article

[Hognoxious]

Is truth an absolute defence against racism? If it turned out that 13% of ilegal immigrants did indeed have criminal records, surely it's just a statement of fact?

Re:scary quote from the article

[bhima]

I was just in the US and I was shocked at the increase of racist things my family & I were subjected to, as compared to around 5 years ago when we moved away from the US. I realize that's it is pretty obvious my girlfriend isn't Anglo (She's Cambodian) and our daughter is... well *ours* and that we don't speak English amongst ourselves. But I will never for the life of me understand why someone would use insults aimed at Mexicans at a family of mixed race speaking Czech in the US.

It amazes me how effectively the Mexicans have been turned into the new enemy in the US.

Re:scary quote from the article

[Tim C]

Facts are facts, but this is unsubstantiated opinion:

"The number of sexual assaults committed by illegal immigrants is astonishing."

The implication is that illegal immigrants commit a huge number of sexual assaults; worded that way it sounds as though they commit a disproportionate number, perhaps even the majority of them.

Yet there are no figures given to back up that statement, and "astonishing" is a subjective (and emotive) term. It's FUD at the very least, if not outright racism.

We have two evil trends converging here

[$RANDOMLUSER]

The first is the "show us your papers" police state behavior that has a camera on every street corner, national identity cards, huge databases of citizen info, warrantless monitoring of telephone and internet traffic, computerized gerrymandering, cell phone location tracking, etc, etc, etc.

The second is the "buy now!" corporation state behavior that has every purchase, every click, every commercial fast-forwarded through monitored and recorded and analyzed, while MAFIAA-DRM "loss prevention" and RFID tags in your underwear close the few remaining loopholes.

Between the politicians greed for limitless power and the corporations limitless greed for wealth, the average citizen doesn't stand a chance. Like the frog in the pot of water, they keep raising the temperature and we keep not noticing. When I read these stories I think: "By God, if there was anywhere to go, I would".

/me puts tinfoil hat back on and crawls back under the bed.

Mod Parent Up

[Cyno01]

DNA is far from perfect. Semen in a rape case, victims blood on murderers clothes, those are workable applications. But when you hoover a crimescene and test everything, suddenly people with even multiple degrees of seperation become suspects. You may not have commited the murder, but your eyelash was found on the victim. It fell onto that guys shoulder that you bumped into on the street. He's the murderer.

private dna registrars

[DynamicPhil]

... well, we are all thinking of goverment as big brother - what about private contractors wanting this?
What will you do when goverment decides private firms (haliburton, or one of your private health insurance corporations) are the best entities to run these things. Outsourcing, anyone?

How do you absolutely guarantee that the DNA database wont be used for employee application selection, or for deciding your premium on your health insurance?

I'll just mention that Sweden has a (for medical use only - but that's currently under discussion) DNA database of all in sweden newborns since 1975 (if you havent specifically asked for non-participation), called the PKU database. It's still ongoing (my little dude was just last week registred - he's a couple of weeks)

Certain "high profile" crimes have been resulted in that the use of this database is under discussion - and the debate is for what uses this database could/should be used.

My hopes are that never, ever will this database be sent to the US/Feds/CIA (as flight iternaries are), and also that private corporation use is prohibited. Think of the society where your employer knows all about your DNA... (go see GATTACA).

Sad

[pubjames]

I'm a European, I love to travel, and I've recently decided I'm not going to travel to the USA until things improve there. How sad is that?

How quickly things can change...

What are "riders" doing in 2006?

[Eivind Eklund]

Dear americans,

Riders is a total loophole in the democracy that's possible to drive a dictatorship through. Given your use of power internationally (both diplomatic and violent power), we would prefer if you had a better functioning democracy. Do you have any estimated time-to-fix? Even a time-to-start-working-on-a-fix would be helpful.

Thanks!

Eivind.

Re:What are "riders" doing in 2006?

[Afecks]

Given your use of power internationally (both diplomatic and violent power), we would prefer if you had a better functioning democracy.

If you want to draw a line down the middle and say "only your side of the house is on fire" then by all means have at it. You could pitch in too if you wanted though. Simply by voting in your own country (lead by example) and educating everyone you come in contact with online about the dangers we face from giving up our privacy and freedoms. I'm sure pissing in our faces and asking "how's the weather" isn't the right way to go about it though.

Re:What are "riders" doing in 2006?

[Ihlosi]

If you want to draw a line down the middle and say "only your side of the house is on fire" then by all means have at it.

It's not just that your side of the house is on fire, you're also making everyone else pour gas on their side.

Do you think my country can do anything about the ever-increasing loads of crap that I get shoved down my throat everytime I enter the US ? I'm still putting up with it because of family over there, but once they revoke the visa waiver program ("security experts" are in favor of this measure, or so I've heard), I'm going to call it quits.

My wife doesn't get fingerprinted or otherwise harassed when we return from the US.

Re:What are "riders" doing in 2006?

[Eivind Eklund]

I *do* vote in my own country, and I *do* spend time educating people. I even spent a bunch of time attempting to set up a political party working for the primary difficulty I see for my own country (low education level for the politicans, distance between scientific knowledge and the ruling politicians), though that never really got off the ground.

However, at this point the major problem I see isn't local: It is global, and it is that the US is slipping with fear. This brings the major democratic problems of the US to the foreground, and "riders" is one of these. The other primary problems are disenfranchment of the voters, IMO primarily due to indirect effects of the election system (winner-takes-all giving a two-party system instead of the plurality of parties typical when using a more proportional system of voting) and the use of paid advertising for candidates, thus giving the impression that only those with money can win (which may or may not be right, there's reasonable economic arguments that it isn't.)

Anyway, since you did not like my way of attempting to humourously highlight these problems: How would you highlight them? How would you point out, in this forum, that the US has large democratic issues and hopefully get some of the people living there riled up about these issues enough that they start to do something about them? How would you get you yourself riled up enough that you start to actively work to get the US to have a better democracy?

In all friendliness and with the hope of a better tomorrow, Eivind.

6 degrees

[caudron]

More a question than a comment, but if old uncle Jethro decides to up and rob a liquor store (we always knew how much Jethro loved his liquor) and they collect DNA from him, what does that mean for the rest of the family? I mean, DNA isn't just a way to identify the person. It's a way to identify entire familial relations. So, having never knocked over a liquor store myself (despite those selfish bastards for not giving it away free!) by virtue of a froward uncle, now whenever a liquor store is hit and DNA left behind, not only can they say "looks like Jethro was here" they could conceivably say "looks like a family member of Jethro's was here". What next? Does that give them Probable Cause to DNA test the rest of us...I mean, they KNOW it was one of us, and I do look drunk most of the time.

I hate to invoke the ol' Slippery Slope argument, but it sure seems like a classic case where the government is poring grease on the slope as we speak.

Tom Caudron
http://tom.digitalelite.com/

This is just another part of the camel....

[argStyopa]

I see lots of posts about how this portends the US as a totalitarian police state.

Sorry, but that camel's nose is under the tent - you already let him in. You (the public) has begged and begged for a nanny state that watches over you and caters to your every whim. Got a problem with your neighbor? Let the courts decide. Your crop failed this year? Beg the government for disaster assistance. Hurricane wiped out your below-sea-level home? It *must* be the government's fault for not protecting/saving you, and then complain because the government handouts are insufficient or slow.

It goes back to the line from "A man for all seasons" - (IIRC) would you tear down the law to get at the devil? Of course? Then what will you hide behind when he comes back at you with his terrible power? If you demand the government keep you safe, employed, fed, housed, and happy, you're a hypocrite if you don't realize that logically this requires extensive surveillance. Kind of like the parent of a toddler.

Sorry, but we're getting exactly what we've spent at least the last 50 years begging for - government uber alles. Is it such a shock that the government (in order to protect us from stubbing our toe) wants to begin tracking where we are, what we do, and whom we do it with?

Re:This is just another part of the camel....

[TubeSteak]

You're confusing/conflating State power & Federal power.

While my State legislators may be a pack of bastards, they're an accountable pack of bastards who have to live where they plan on shitting. The damage they can do is limited to one state.

Guess what, if my legislatures fuck up my state, I can leave it. Within an hour I can be living in any of three other states. It would suck, but I could commute until finding a job closer to my new home.

The reason I despise intrusive legislation at the Federal level is because leaving the country is not something that can be quickly done, compared to moving 100 miles.

As for calling people hypocrites, I fail to see how demanding X, Y, Z logically leads to extensive surveillance. You left out that part of your argument.

That's Nothing

[Doug Dante]

In Michigan, when a child is born, a government official comes in with a card including all identifying information and takes 5-6 samples of blood and places it on the card. Some are used to test for various rare genetic diseases (which could also be done at the hospital).

Then the card is placed on file at a "secret location" where security includes a "locked gate", and kept until they're 21 1/2, although I don't think the program has been active that long, so no actual destruction of records has taken place.

Luckily, when my child was born, I was able to get them to certify that they had destroyed the blood sample, but they really resisted it.

I tell people about this and they think I'm a nut, but I don't want my kid's DNA in a government warehouse for mass importation into some database.