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Dell Laptops Have Shocking New Problem
dapsychous writes "A friend of one of my coworkers has noticed a problem in Dell notebook computers (also covered in this engadget article about a problem that has been popping up lately in Dell 17" notebook computers). It seems that these computers are putting out between 19 and 139 (65 according to article, 139 according to him) volts of AC power as measured from any chassis screw vs. earth ground. This has led to several problems including fried ram, blown video circuits, and a stout zap on his left hand.
According to him, Dell has tried to keep him quiet about the problem and has even gone so far as to have him banned from a few websites, and threatened him with legal action if he tells people about the problem."
I'm running an E1705 (manufactured in May of last year) and I'm not seeing this. Maybe his unit just sucks at grounding. (They're called manufacturing defects for a reason, and last I checked, they're covered by warranty and by law.)
Viable Slashdot alternatives: https://pipedot.org/ and http://soylentnews.org/
...it doesn't get much more reliable than that!
"Ask not what your country can do for you." --John F. Kennedy
shock...
I guess this means we shouldn't urinate on the third screw then, eh?
'Loose' is when your pants are three sizes too big. 'Lose' is when you misuse 'loose'.
Google? They seem nice.
Dell's new marketing campaign should be: Dell: our computers are elecrifying!
The original generic sig.
Okay, not really, but shouldn't happen in the UK. According to the article:
"The latest word is that VG's own problems were solved by springing for a three-pronged grounded power adapter"
You can't get a non-earthed plug in the UK, the earth pin is physically required to open the plug socket. This can be a dummy pin, but you're only able to do that if the unit itself is double-insulated.
Slashdot Burying Stories About Slashdot Media Owned
Sounds like someone broke their labtop and is pissed that Dell won't replace it for free.
Why are individual gripes making it to /.? What is the statistical significance of this observation?
/.
A single manufacuring defect (if that is the problem) isn't worthy of
Also, did the "friend" modify the laptop at all? Perhaps disassemble it or otherwise "improve" it?
We've all gotten a lemon at one time or the other.
Stop griping... get a life.
The articles are rather light on details, but I'm wondering if some of these people are using their laptops on a couch and sliding a bit when they sit down? I've had an Inspiron 6000 for a bit over a year now and I've learned in the winter to be careful to set it aside when I'm getting on or off of the couch, lest the static electricity give me a nice zap.
The fact that he's measuring AC (which is very surprising since the laptops don't have any ready access to AC outside of the power brick AFAIK) make it less likely though.
I read the internet for the articles.
My Macbook has the same problem: whenever it pulls in a lot of current, I get an electrical shock when touching the head of one of the screws. I'm not alone with this problem, there are several threads on the Mac support forums about this, e.g. this one. Of course there's no official statement from Apple :-(
i will be calling Dell ASAP to see if I am affected.
Um, and why would you expect them to give you a straight answer? They'll probably just play dumb and say they've never heard of the problem. (Which will probably be true, at least for the drone you'll be talking to.)
Get out a voltmeter and test it; that would seem to be the easiest solution, and less likely to lie to your face than some Customer Service rep. Probably faster, too.
Until a problem like this becomes terribly public -- and by this I mean more public than just being covered on some technology websites -- I suspect Dell will deny it, except in cases where people absolutely insist that they have a problem, and demand a replacement. In those cases, they'll get a replacement machine just to shut them up.
So I'd just get out the old multimeter, measure the AC voltage from one of the chassis screws to the nearest good ground, and if it's more than a few millivolts, call Dell and tell (not ask) them that you need a replacement unit.
"Ladies and gentlemen, my killbot features Lotus Notes and a machine gun. It is the finest available."
I know it's fashionable here to bash corporate America and all, but not all companies are big bad corps with a will to shaft you out of your hard-earned money. I trust many big companies because they provide quality products and never tried to screw me, and I trust even more small companies, and if you think about it, I'm sure you do too.
That said though, Dell isn't in my white list, that's for sure. Michael Dell is in for the money, period...
"A door is what a dog is perpetually on the wrong side of" - Ogden Nash
For a while, I thought I had a similar problem with both my new Dell laptop, and an old dumpster-diver I had before that. I was getting shocked occasionally when I touched the machines. I initially blamed it on poorly grounded wiring in my house (a rental), until I realized that the problem was electro-static discharge build up from sitting on my Durapella couch.
I worked it out recently when cold winter temperatures drove the humidity way down. Whenever I got up from the couch I would feel the charge build up, then I would inadvertently discharge myself of a light switch, a metal corner post in the drywall, or worse, on some home electronics. After I accidentally blew out the panel of buttons on a DVD player, I did some experiments. By rubbing my hand on the couch cushions for a few seconds, then using a piece of metal held in my hand (less painful that way) to discharge myself to ground, I found I could jump a spark 2 cm or more. Sometimes, I can get multiple sparks on one charge.
It's kind of cool, if you know to expect it. And, the remote still works for the DVD player...
--WH--
About 5 years ago, I was doing IT work, and had to support a bunch of Dell laptops my employed had purchased prior to my starting there. the one in question was an Inspiron, don't remember the model number, but it was probably a P3-800 or so.
Anyway, the user was complaining about power issues with the laptop - things like it sudenly shutting down, starting up by itself and running the battery down, etc. Then out of the blue, she said, "and it's shocked me a couple of times." Like that's expected behavior.
I was somewhat skeptical about this, and figured it was a static problem or something unrelated but found out the harsh truth while I was on the support call with Dell. They had me do the usual bonehead stuff like do a hard reset, update the BIOS, remove/replace the battery, etc. I was typing on it and got zapped on the thumb with a serious shock. That's when I noticed the little scorch mark next to the right trackpad button. Looking down through the gap between the button and the case, I could see a little bit of metal from whatever was underneath. Enough charge was building up in there to arc to my hand, which can't be good.
The Dell support guy heard me yelp when I got shocked and asked me if everything was OK. I told him I just got a nasty shock from the laptop and he said, "can you hold for a minute please?"
I waited for about 2 minutes, and then some other guy came on the phone and said that they were sending out a replacement overnight and that I should return the other one right away. The replacement was a top-of-the-line Inspiron for the time, quite a step up from the one that zapped me. I figured it was a pretty good response.
So I issued the user a new Thinkpad from our closet and kept the nice Dell for myself. It worked out for everybody.
On an older Inspiron 8600 laptop. I contacted Dell Warranty Support and my laptop was replaced with a newer E1505 core duo model within a week.
Normally I would have been happy, but the new system had inferior graphics and disk drive, and was incompatable with the upgraded RAM in the old system. Dell would not reconcile the issues, and just had their tech support deny my claims.
"Dell has tried to keep him quiet about the problem and has even gone so far as to have him banned from a few websites, and threatened him with legal action if he tells people about the problem."
On what grounds would this be a valid case? Once you sell something to someone that they own (not license), you cannot tell them what they can and cannot do with it so long as you do not cross any other lines and violate someone's privacy (which is why I suppose selling stuff you bought at auction from a storage company is illegal -- although I think most of what those guys did was OK, and the judge overreached). So this guy has every right to say "My computer shocks me, here's what kind of machine it is" because it's not slander, it's the truth.
Seems to me like this guy can file under anti-SLAPP rules, can't he? This company is trying to shut up someone who is exposing their mistakes -- and yes, it is a valid complaint (why wasn't he given a grounded power supply when it is known that failing to ground electronic devices can shock users?) and yes he has the right to be publicly heard if he wishes to. No one has the right to not be offended by what he has to say.
i am a soviet space shuttle
How does static electricity get you an AC current?
But this guy says he measured his voltage with the multimeter on AC. Static electricity is the buildup of charge on something capacitive (like you and me) and would be measured as DC. That is, if you could measure it at all, since we make pretty bad capacitors and any ordinary multimeter would quickly drain the charge away.
I am not a crackpot.
The LCD backlight - typically runs somewhere in the region of 150V ac. There will be an inverter in the laptop to produce this voltage.
Oolite: Elite-like game. For Mac, Linux and Windows
I don't care watt you say. This issue has the potential to increase reluctance to buy Dell.
"By the time they had diminished from 50 to 8, the other dwarves began to suspect 'Hungry.'" -Gary Larson
I know my house was built a long long time ago (1951) and the upstairs, while someone put in grounded outlets, it doesn't physically have the ground hooked up - due to the wiring used at the time of it being built.
That's an electrical code violation. If you have to have a 3-prong outlet on a 2-wire circuit, you must use a GFCI outlet, which gives you electric shock protection. That's allowed by the US National Electrical Code. The outlet plate should then be marked "Isolated Ground". This warns people that plugging in a computer there may have problems, because it can't dump static and noise into protective ground as usual.
If you're going to wire up power, read a manual on how to do it. It's not rocket science, but there are very specific rules and screwing up is dangerous.
The article is vague. It's not even clear if the problem occurs when the laptop is not plugged into the charger. The power supply for some backlights can produce over 100v, so there is a potential shock source even on battery power.
If the problem is related to the charger power supply, that's a clear safety hazard. Check for a UL logo, and go to the UL web site to check on whether the power supply actually has approval. If the power supply is made in China, it must have a hologram UL sticker with the UL approval number. There are power supplies out there with forged UL approvals, and UL is trying to crack down. (Those are the power supplies that fail in power supply tests on PC websites. UL tests them loaded up to their rated value and runs them for hours at full load, so the UL logo means it really can deliver whatever power it's supposed to deliver.)
Michael Dell doesn't fuck around does he!!!!
Acting stupid isn't much fun when there's someone around who knows better
Pretty easily, when it's full of voltage converters, and a high-voltage inverter to run the LCD backlight,
I just checked all the Dell laptops our company owns, about 10 of them (E1505 and E1705 models). All of them are producing around 3-5 Volts of AC off the screws. In fact the one producing the highest voltage is currently on a service call as the system has stopped working.
I am currently in contact with Dell about this issue and I am being informed they are letting the engineers know of the issue and hope to have a resolution soon.
The funniest thing I have read regarding this was a post in notebookforums from aindfan:
"I took my E1705 up to the Senior Design EE lab here. The two seniors that were there glanced over at my oscilloscope and realized what was going on, most likely assuming that I did not ground properly. When we took it over to the new, more advanced scope, the measurements reported were of a 60Hz periodic function with a peak-to-peak voltage of ~150V.
Being curious EE's, the next natural step that the seniors suggested was to see if we could pull any current out of the screws. A few moments later, we had a circuit with a laptop screw connecting to an LED in series with a 1K Ohm resistor connected to the ground node of a power supply (connected directly to the ground of a wall socket). I am happy to report that the LED turned on and there was a measured current of about 1.4 (mille or micro, I forget which) Amps flowing from the screw to the resistor.
Remember, folks, there will never be current flowing out of the laptop without a load attached to the screws. So don't hook up any 1 Ohm resistors if this is happening to your laptop, you might fry a few things (due to the large current, remember V=IR).
I'm opening up a Dell chat now to see about getting this resolved.
Thanks for starting this thread ViriiGuy. It was quite interesting to play around with the testing for this.
EDIT: When I asked the dell chat support tech if she could send a 3 pronged power adapter (after I explained the issue), she replied "I cannot do that.""
Good stuff.
"Real knowledge is to know the extent of one's ignorance" -Confucius
Rubbermaid.
Called them up twice because one of their guaranteed for life tupperware container cracked in my dish washer on 2 separate occasions (similar size/type). They apologized, suggested putting them on the upper dishwasher rack to reduce the chance of this happening, and sent me a coupon good on anything rubbermaid up to the value of the thing that broke. I asked how I needed to send in the broken container (which their warranty terms say you have to do), and they said I didn't have to because they trusted that I was telling the truth.
Otherwise, never had a problem with any of their stuff and the only remotely bad thing that I know of that they did was try to get retirees of a company they bought to pay $40/mo for health insurance.
That was just an act to get into your pants. Sorry to have to tell you this way.
My little site.
But I think that Slashdot editors should conduct themselves in a more professional manner. How else can we expect you to discharge your duties effectively, and eliminate the audience's natural resistance?
Now let's get back to the current topic.
That's how three of my family members died!
You stroke a cat, then pick it up by the tail and swing it around over your head at 3600 RPM (3000 RPM in Europe).
Have gnu, will travel.
I didn't RTFA, but in countries like Switzerland, we have regular wiretestings. You're obligated to do them, if you don't do them, you will get disconnected from the Grid.
Now if you hook a typical $4.99 digital voltmeter from Harbor Freight, the input impedance of the voltmeter, combined with these capacitors, will indicate anything from zero to 377 volts.
And if you rub your cat, the voltage could go much higher!
As you bright folks out there may be guessing, it's not the voltage so much that is the problem, it's the current. And the current is miniscule, microamps.
So no conspiracy here, move along, etc....
So the article specifically says once he bought a three pronged adapter the problem was solved. Sounds like it's a dell fault.
If they are providing an un-grounded adapter then they should be sure that no external metal components can connect to the line neutral, because while that should ideally be at ground potential, the power spec provides for the possibility of it floating. I'd also like to see if he is shocked by the old setup if put on an isolation transformer.
-nB
whois gawk date unzip strip find touch finger mount join nice man top fsck grep eject more yes exit umount sleep dump
We like bashing corperate America as we in Europe have the EU (bad as they may be) but at least they occasionally have some balls, like basically forcing Steve Jobs to come out against DRM, having an anti-monopoly commission that, you know, is anti-monopolies. And generally tries to do good for consumers and not protect damn big corperations from f***ing us up the a*** (or a** for those who speak American).
Almost all devices which utilize wall-operated power supplies can have leakage current associated with them.
A circuit designed as you suggested is a potential lawsuit - if a capacitor shorts, the user gets full line current
Dropping a laptop on your toe is a potential lawsuit. The capacitors mentioned by the other poster are called X and Y caps. Any transformer-coupled switching power supply will electrostatically couple energy from the primary of the transformer, to the secondary. This energy can result in lots of signal integrity related problems in the connected equipment, as well as EMI/EMC issues. In order to minimize these problems, a ceramic capacitor is connected from one leg of the primary, to one leg of the seconday. It gives a return path to the coupled energy. These capacitors have a UL listing that is separate from that of the power supply. They don't fail. Ever. They have a rating of almost 4kV, and are hi-pot tested to that at the factory.
I think it would be nice if the slashdot crowd learned more about the toys we hold so dear. It's worth knowing.
Also, DMM's are very high-impedance, you can measure 'dangerous' voltages by just holding the leads in the air. Like any piece of lab gear, it's nice to know when you can believe it's output.
I'd like to submit Logitech to the list!
I purchased one of their MX1000 laser mice when it was a brand new item, and while it was excellent - my 4 year old dropped it on the floor one too many times. The center rocker button surrounding the scroll wheel started sticking occasionally, causing things to scroll, out of control, in web browsers, MS Word, etc.
Seeing it was under Logitech's warranty, I figured it couldn't hurt to give them a call - to see if they might be able to sell me a used/refurbished replacement mouse inexpensively or something, given the circumstances.
Instead, the sales rep. looked up its serial number to confirm it was under warranty, and simply said "A brand new replacement is on its way." I asked if they needed the old mouse back, and I was told "No. You may as well keep it to have a spare charging base or something." Within a week, a new mouse was at my doorstep, in the retail packaging!