Godwin's Law Invoked in Linus/Gnome Spat

lisah writes "The flame wars between Linus Torvalds and the GNOME community continue to burn. Responding to Torvalds' recent claim that GNOME 'seems to be developed by interface Nazis' and that its developers believe their 'users are idiots,' a member of the Linux Foundation's Desktop Architects mailing list suggested that Torvalds use GNOME for a month before making such pronouncements. Torvalds, never one to back down from a challenge, simply turned around and submitted patches to GNOME and then told the list, '...let's see what happens to my patches. I guarantee you that they actually improve the code.' After lobbing that over the fence, Torvalds concluded his comments by saying, 'Now the question is, will people take the patches, or will they keep their heads up their arses and claim that configurability is bad, even when it makes things more logical, and code more readable.'" Linux.com and Slashdot are both owned by OSTG.

Comments

Please take care of Linus

[Reverse Gear]

I really think that Linus is a cool guy no doubt about that, sending in those patches to the Gnome community sure was the way to prove who is the over-geek here and how to get something done instead of wasting valuable time arguing over something as unimportant as Gnome (pun intented), if Linus is right.

But Linus does really seem to have a bit of an attitude problem at times. Which is many times good if you are a boss for employees, but the problem just is that is not what Linus is, he is the boss of volenteers, they can quit if they don't like their boss.

I can't help but get a little worried, had it been anyone else but Linus I wouldn't mind, let people have their strange ways as long as they do not bother me or anyone else to much.

I am just worried for Linus, I sure hope he does take care of himself and stay mentally fit, that flamewars like the one he appearently had with the Gnome people here does not bring him out of balance somehow.

If Linus somehow gets sick and overloaded then it will lead to a whole lot of mess with the development of the Linux Kernel which really would not be nice.

So please Gnome people start behaving, be humble, accept the patches and do not upset Linus, we really need him, even if he isn't always the nicest person around ;)

Re:Please take care of Linus

[DrXym]

I'm a power user and I really don't have a problem with GNOME. It's simple, straightforward, minimalist and stays the hell out of the way while I do stuff. After all, it is "stuff" that I use the computer for, not to fuck around configuring the desktop.

The thing is (as Linus has demonstrated), is that if you know what you're doing you can add this stuff, or at least drop to the command line or install Konq or Midnight Commander. Virtually every Linux dist has a vast library of tools to use. I do think that GNOME would benefit from some kind of power tools (think TweakUI on windows) or even an advanced mode which exposes more, but making the desktop simple, consistent and easy to use for mere mortals by default is the only way to go.

Anyway GNOME isn't as simple as OS X (for example), yet dare criticize OS X on slashdot and you invoke the wrath of Apple zealots everywhere.

Re:Please take care of Linus

[tinkertim]

HOwever I do think that assuming he has some degree of autism isn't unlikely, I myself suffer from quite serios mental disorders and I seem to find that autism and other mental disorders (or what you like to call them, doesn't matter much) is much more common in "the geek community" than in the world surrounding us.
Probably has a lot to do with that the commputer is really a big help to people like me who have problems handling social situations.

If you get the occasion, read The curious incident of the dog in the night time by Mark Haddon. Its a very small and entertaining paperback, an avid reader could finish it off in one evening's sitting.

I also suffer from :

    * Severe Anxiety In Social Situations
    * Extreme difficulty making decisions when new options are in front of me
    * Panic attacks when touched unexpectedly
    * Panic attacks when people shout or demonstrate hostile / violent behavior

.. and an array of other extremely annoying ailments which lead me to believe that (most) very smart people could also be considered mildly (or more) autistic.

I'm not saying they / we ARE autistic, I'm only pointing out that reclusive geeks demonstrate very, very similar symptoms. From the research I've done, it seems that somewhere around Gen-X kids who are really smart were given an overdose of stimuli which grew their creativity and intellect but shot them in the foot emotionally. Right about the time of the Texas Instruments home computer, from what I can tell, and onward.

I had to wade through an enormous amount of kiddie-shrink finger pointing papers, and I'm still doing that .. to try and see how not to pass this along to my 15 month old daughter. I can only say I'm 100% convinced that Autism has more forms than documented, and one of them is developed, not acquired when we don our "genes".

There's also a school of thought that empathy is the next evolutionary "tool" we're devloping, and the feedback we get from the heightened sense literally drives us crazy to the point where we seem autistic.

People who stay home and work, electing not to interact much with the outside world around them do so for very good reasons, and we really need to be tolerant of eachother's quirks. This doesn't mean that you put on a T shirt that says "Hey world, I have a hard time coping with you so plese be nice to me all the time", however.

If you (yourself) won't make an effort to get past yourself, you can't expect more from those around you.

The smarter we get, the less we're able to handle it. I don't think the world is going to slow down so we feel more comfortable being in it .. so the word for today kids : cope.

Let us not forget, Linus is most directly responsible for this 'cool little safe haven' we found where not only can we interact at a level that also lets us feel safe, we can also have careers. When he talks, listen. If you don't like what he says, cope.

Re:Please take care of Linus

[Haeleth]

I try out KDE every two years

Wait, why are you bringing KDE into this? What on earth does KDE have to do with the question of whether Gnome is limiting or not?

If you'll forgive my saying this, you sound like one of those people who responds to every criticism of Bush by bringing up something Clinton did. This isn't a binary thing. This isn't a "everyone who hates Gnome must love KDE" thing. It is perfectly possible and legitimate to criticise Gnome's decisions completely without reference to KDE. I for one think both environments are equally unpleasant to use; I use Gnome at the moment purely because I haven't got round to looking for something better.

Honestly, Gnome works for many people, and KDE does, too. What's the problem with that? It's about TASTE or PREFERENCE. Don't argue about it; just let people freely choose their desktop.

You see? You are totally missing the point. This is not about whether Gnome is better than KDE or vice versa! This is about whether someone for whom Gnome is 95% perfect is able to fix that remaining 5%, or whether they're going to be permanently frustrated by little niggles that they can't straighten out. This is about whether the decisions Gnome's powers-that-be make are allowing Gnome to fit the TASTE and PREFERENCE of people who want to choose Gnome, because Gnome is closer to what they want than any of the other choices.

I don't get it. Why do so many people like you seem to think that the existence of other desktop environments means it should somehow be off-limits to discuss the benefits and disadvantages of any individual environment? Why do you think that any attempt to improve a minor aspect of one environment must really be a conspiracy to replace it with a different environment? Why are so many people dedicated to stifling debate? We're talking about desktop environments here, not religion, for God's sake.

Re:Please take care of Linus

[dan dan the dna man]

Whereas I am sick and tired of people trotting out this 'We're all a bit Aspergers' line because we're in IT.

I work partly embedded in an academic CS environment, there are plenty of people there who aren't the most socially adept, but to suggest that these people all have Asperger's is nonsense.

There's a huge problem with people self-diagnosing autistic spectrum disorders, they read a paragraph or two on Asperger's and then they have the 'omg that's me!' moment. I can happily sit around all day picking bits out of DSM criteria that fit my personality.

Let me tell you something, these geeks don't have Asperger's. I have a girlfriend who is diagnosed with Asperger's and believe you me she is nothing like the people I know in the CS department.

Just because you're a bit shy, antisocial, have a thing for code and maths and aren't the most outgoing person in the world doesn't make you fucking Asperger's.

You don't want to be autistic, you don't even want to pretend to be autistic. Watching someone with Asperger's struggle with living day to day is not fun. You geeks don't struggle to live from day to day. Panic attacks are not the sole preserve of people with Asperger's, and when you see an AS suffer 'overloaded' with stimuli you don't want to be around because there's nothing you can do to calm them down and they're using one of their coping mechanisms to keep themselves from literally losing the plot.

Living with Asperger's is not something you should aspire to. You can be logical, antisocial, good with computers and suffer panic attacks and still not be Asperger's or anywhere on the autistic spectrum.

Repeat after me - Wikiepdia is not a fucking doctor, it cannot diagnose you. If you think you all have Asperger's go get a referral to someone who can tell you. Watch as they boot you out of the surgery for wasting their time.

regards,

long suffering partner of a wonderful Asperger's gf.

Re:Please take care of Linus

[Overly Critical Guy]

You know, the weird thing is that for many years, we all raved about how down-to-earth and carefree Linus was, and how he didn't get involved in Internet spats because he was a geek too busy working on Linux. In recent years, however, he's taken public stances and hurled a few insults here and there. This Gnome criticism is just stupid. Linus doesn't know EVERYTHING; he should leave the Gnome interface to the people who design the Gnome interface. It's not thinking users are stupid when you don't provide the overwhelming configurability that messy interfaces like KDE provide. It's just recognizing that the majority of people in the world just don't care and want something that is already the best solution, because they don't want to have to configure anything. As a kernel geek, it doesn't surprise me that Linus doesn't get that.

Cleaner and more capable??

[Jah-Wren Ryel]

Sorry kneejerkers, but its going to require a much more detailed description of those patches than simply "cleaner and more capable" before we can make a good evaluation of whether Linus's patches should be accepted.

After all, if someone submitted patches to the linux kernel to grab the local weather report and print it out on boot, that would be adding capability that Linus would never accept in a million years because it is outside of the scope of the kernel. If Linus's patches are similarly outside the scope of the official design goals of Gnome, then any expectation that they would be accepted is just a red herring.

Here's the link

[g2devi]

Here's the link: (it was posted a bit earlier)
http://lists.linux-foundation.org/pipermail/deskto p_architects/2007-February/thread.html

Basically, Linus wants to have fine grained control over what the mouse buttons do.

Sounds like a simple request, but he doesn't reveal it until *after* he submits a patch and in that same email goes on to rant about how no-one listens to him and how GNOME developers make excuses instead of just doing whatever he wants. In a later email he comments that he sent the patches to a developer's only email address (that he admits may or may not have been able to see his patches) because he doesn't like bugzilla and says that the patches must be accepted or GNOME developers are a bunch of hypocrites even though an API freeze is in effect for about a month ( http://live.gnome.org/TwoPointSeventeen ).

Personally, I find it a bit interesting that Linus has repeatedly flamed (or sidelined) people on the Linux kernel mailing list for acting like he is now, not following the kernel submission procedure, assuming that freezes don't count, and assuming that if the core architects of the Linux kernel think that a feature (done in a certain way) is a bad idea then they must be a bunch of hypocrites.

I personally don't know if the patches are any good or in keeping with GNOME's design or need changes or .... But I do think that Linus needs to chill and let the GNOME core developers run the way they want to and accept or postpone (if there's a freeze) or reject his patches as they deem appropriate. If Linus want to contribute to GNOME (I hope he does), he has to do it by GNOME's rules or fork, or pass it on to someone who *is* willing to play by GNOME's rules (I'd be surprised if there weren't are more than a few developers and distros who would be willing to work as intermediary between Linus and GNOME). That's the way open source works.

It's not unreasonable to expect this. GNOME core developers don't go on the Linux kernel thread and whine and submit attitude patches to Linus, 'tho if they did, they would (and should) be flamed. Linus has said repeatedly on the kernel mailing lists that submitters must either follow the kernel rules, or fork (e.g. if you don't like the license), or pass on your patches to someone who is willing to do things that kernel developer's way (none of Reiser's patches would have gone if it weren't for this later option).

Are there problems with the GNOME way of doing things? Sure. Linus brought up a good point about the ease of submitting patches. But all projects have issues. There was a time, not too long ago, when the submission process for the Linux kernel was "send Linus your patches and if he doesn't respond then keep resending them because the patches might have gotten lost". But the issues won't get better if you complain to the wrong people.

Just my 2 cents worth.

Re:Attitude

[Gorshkov]

Linus is good. Linus contributes a lot, but untimately that does not give him the right to be a fuckwit in someone elses project, any more than it gives anyone else the right to be a fuckwit in his project. Roll over and be nice to Linus is a poor way to handle things.

Funny. One of the biggest cries you hear when somebody trashes something else in open source is "You don't like it? Fix it and submit a patch, and stop expecting these hard-working volunteers who give up all of their free time to develop something out of the goodness of their heart to babysit you"

So - let's see what happened here.
a) Linus bitches about something he doesn't like

b) Somebody says "Use it for a month and THEN see if you like it (which totally ignores the fact that what he's bitching about shows that he HAS, in fact, used it). Others tell him that if he's not using it, or doing something about it, he has no right to complain.

c) Linus turns around and does what he's told to - he submits patches to fix what he thinks is broken

I don't see anything wrong here. I don't see evidence of an ego. What *I* see is somebody with very strong opinions, and grounded with a basis in fact (even if you don't agree with his conclusions - which I don't), doing something about it instead of just whining.

I wish MORE people had this particular "ego problem" of Linus' - Open Source would be much further along.