Slashdot Mirror
Is Switching Jobs Too Often a Bad Thing?
Career Hot Potato asks: "I've been out of school for little more than a year and I have only good things to say about the job market. So far, there doesn't seem to be any lack of demand for a good .NET developer. I've got to admit, though, I feel a little disloyal at this point. Several great job offers have come my way and I've taken them. My resume is starting to make me look a bit restless and it worries me. Until now I've just chalked it up to 'I'm just settling in,' but now another opportunity has been dropped into my lap. Would I be digging my own grave by taking this job? It'd be my fourth job in 16 months but each offered a promotion and a 30% to 40% raise. I know better than to put a price on job satisfaction but I'm pretty certain I'd be happy there. Is being branded as a 'hot potato' enough to keep you from switching? What's your price on this stigma?"
So far, there doesn't seem to be any lack of demand for a good .NET developer.
.NET developers?
Excellent! What's the market like for evil
There are shills on slashdot. Apparently, I'm one of them.
Yes! Switching jobs often makes you look like a "job hopper". You can do it once but your resume should have a job that spans several years right after it. That way you can lie about the short job and get away with it.
Antti S. Brax - Old school - http://www.iki.fi/asb/
The way I see it, if you end up getting a job you are pretty much set. The only thing it could hurt is your ability to GET a job, not KEEP it. As long as you are happy with the latest offer and stick with it you should be able to put in enough time to get passed the whole 'hot potato' phase before you need to look for another. Go with what will make you happy while making the most money =P
Anyone who has the power to make you believe absurdities has the power to make you commit injustices. --- Voltaire
I've got a book here by Gordon Miller, called Quit Your Job Often and Get Big Raises.
Switching jobs regularly can be fantastic for your career - but you have to do it intelligently: leave AFTER you finish a big project.
(disclaimer: I'm a contractor - it's a whole other way of making a living.)
"Be afraid to die until you have won some victory for humanity" -Horace Mann
Yes, doing anything too often is a bad thing.
Hope that helps.
As with anything else, there's no hard and fast rules, but it can be a bad thing because it makes you look like a disloyal salary chaser. One of the (many) problems in the .com era was that people would jump form ship to ship chasing higher salaries. You'd get trained people leaving a job they'd been at for a number of years and then hop across 5 different startups. Well, when the market came down is it and wonder that companies were less inclined to hire them? I mean who's to say they wouldn't jump ship as soon as a bigger number came along?
However please don't take this to mean you should try and stick with a company no matter what. You do not owe your company anything other than good work and you shouldn't stick around in a situation that sucks. However do take in to consideration that what goes around comes around in terms of loyalty.
My personal rule would be don't switch jobs without a good reason. There are lots of things that could be a good reason, but just a salary increase really isn't. There's much more to happiness than money and if you get in a game of chasing dollars it is easy to make yourself unhappy. Figure out what you want out of work and try to find a place that offers that. Then stay there unless there's a reason to move. Also consider other things like work environment, benefits (such a vacation, health coverage), and so on.
So don't turn this down just because you feel you are switching too often, but don't take it just because it is more dollars, unless you are in a situation where you need the money (in which case ask yourself why, and make sure you don't get there again). Take it if it will be better for your long term happiness. Money is certainly a part of that, but consider all the factors.
Do this not only because you want to be happy, but because it is easier to explain to a future employer if they ask about it. If they say "You have a lot of jobs here in the past few years, why is that?" You come off much better explaining how the changes were for personal reasons such as liking the new challenge, growth, better environment, etc than if you just say you were after bigger bucks.
Also part of it depends on how you want to present yourself in the job market. A legit way to go is a consultant kind of worker. Maybe not an actual consultant, but willing to take on short-term work. Company needs a developer for a single project that's maybe 6-12 months, you say sure and ride that while it's there then move on. In that case switching jobs is not just expected but probably even an asset as they won't worry you'll be pissed when they lay you off. However if you are more after the stable environment, where you work for a place for 5, 10, or more years and train to do new things as necessary, then look at doing less job hopping as places like that want people who will stick around.
Ultimately you are the only one with the answers. Just consider the reasons and make sure they are good ones. Make sure you consider everything you are giving up and that it still is worth it.
If you worry about how your resume will look like after you get a new job, something's wrong about your approach. You're taking a job because of the job and prospects connected with it. You should plan on staying at that job for MANY years. Otherwise, just don't take it. You'll either build several years of constant job there, a good solid entry in your resume, with summarizing your previous employment as a single "2006-2007 various short-term jobs", or you're doing this only to jump to yet another job in a few months, and that means you are a hot-potato and you'll get what you deserve. Anyway, as long as BETTER offers keep coming, you can keep accepting them, but note BETTER doesn't only mean higher salary or promotion. About the most important condition for a long-term job is good atmosphere and that's not what you can negotiate from the employee. So one day you may notice "sure, I'm paid a lot and I'm a boss of a big team but everyone hates me and is out to get me" and you'll remember a good, friendly place you had left before. And then your resume may count.
45 5F E1 04 22 CA 29 C4 93 3F 95 05 2B 79 2A B2
I'd think maintaining company loyalty is more important than money. At least that way you gain some security. Think about it as if you were an employer. Would you be willing to hire someone who hasn't stayed with a company for a reasonable amount of time?
I don't have much, if any, experience, so don't take my comments too seriously. Consider this though. If I take a job (not a tech job), I'm going to honor my commitment to it even if more money is offered elswhere.
As far as I can tell, the closer to the CEO end of the hierarchy you are, the less of a stigma is attached to it. If you've taken six different busboy jobs in a year, you're fucked. Six senior management positions in a year, you're just ambitious.
I've been out of my parent's basement for little more than a year and I have only good things to say about the dating market. So far, there doesn't seem to be any lack of demand for a good geek. I've got to admit, though, I feel a little disloyal at this point. Several girls have come my way and I've taken them. My list of ex-girlfriends is starting to make me look a bit restless and it worries me. Until now I've just chalked it up to 'It's just hormones,' but now another chick has been dropped into my lap. Would I be digging my own grave by taking this girl? It'd be only my fourth time speaking to a woman in 19 years but each offered benefits and a 30% to 40% increase in cup size. I know better than to put a price on satisfaction but I'm pretty certain I'd be happy with her even though all I ever do with girls is hold hands. Is being branded as a 'hot potato' enough to keep you from switching? What's your price on this stigma?
Want to improve your Karma? Instead of "Post Anonymously", try the "Post Humously" option.
If you're getting offers of 30-40% higher and taking them, as an employer I don't think I'd blame you for hopping.
The problem is going to be this: You're costing your employers money every time you do this. Lots and lots of money. It costs money to go through the hiring process, the process of orienting you (during which time you are less productive and still getting paid), the process of processing you (HR setting up payroll, insurance, etc), and worst of all -- the opportunity cost of hiring someone who leaves in a couple of months (ie, loss of productivity due to your orientation time + hiring time of the next guy + orientation time of the next guy).
Unless you are extraordinarily compelling, I'd be inclined to pass on you as an employer unless I was sure there was something I could do to keep you should you get a better offer -- and I'd have to be willing to do it, too.
Mostly, when you make a habit of hopping, what you need to consider before you hop is:
1. If the new job turns sour, am I willing to put up with any shit they give me, no matter how bad it is.
2. Is the company going to be in a position to release me in the near future (ie, due to layoffs or because I'm a fuck up)
The reason you need to consider these is because with each hop you make in a short amount of time, the danger of the aforementioned hiring manager passing on you due to your hopping increases. You do NOT want to be without a job when you cross the line and become a radioactive hire due to job hopping.
#1 - If you're finding jobs offering that much more money every 4 months or so, it means you sold yourself too cheap at first. Take a moment and figure out what you're really worth. Then, when you get an offer, ignore the number if it's low, and counteroffer for what you're really worth.
#2 - Job hopping will change the kind of job offers you'll get. If you've been changing jobs every 4 months, you're going to get hired by people who have a short-term interest in you. If you show that you're committed to a job for 4 years at a time, you'll get hired by places that are looking to keep you around a long time.
#3 - If you LIKE changing jobs frequently, become a contractor! People will hire you expecting you to be there 6 months, and you'll get to try out a whole range of places. This will probably be a good thing for you until you figure out what you really want. Plus, if you decide to settle down, all you have to say is all the short jobs you did were contracts, and no one will count it against you.
#4 - Being a job hopper isn't inherently bad as long as you're representing your intentions truthfully, but don't be surprised if you end up having to seriously pay your dues to change your image if you decide you want to work somewhere more committed to YOU in the future.
Switching jobs often is only a bad thing if your resume shows that you do it consistently. Personally I don't mind if a prospective worker has a lot of jobs on his or her resume, but I *do* mind if they don't have one or two that they stayed at for several years - it tells me one of two things:
1. You're incompetent and moved from job to job because you had to, either because you got fired or because you left right before someone let you go.
2. You're only in it for the money and could care less about what we're doing.
#1 concerns me for obvious reasons, #2 concerns me because a. even the best engineer is a drain on the project for the first six months due to training overhead (you may be brilliant, but you DON'T know what we're doing or how we do things), b. when you leave *I* have to take up your slack until the new guy comes up to speed, and c. the rest of us DO care about what we're doing.
So my advice is this: find a nice balance between your paycheck and working on something you actually LIKE DOING, and then stay there for awhile even if someone else will pay you more. I just turned away a guy who is a brilliant programmer but who hasn't held a job for more than a year since 1995 - instead, I hired someone who was less technically qualified but had the good sense to ask about the longevity of the position because he hated switching jobs... and he had a history of sticking around. I treat my people well, I expect them to do the same for me.
Financially speaking, you also need to consider two things:
1. Switching jobs rapidly significantly lowers your credit score as well as making lenders think you're a flake, which will push the APR on any money you borrow through the roof. You may not think this matters, but if you buy a house or a car the penalty can amount to many thousands of dollars a year. If you don't use credit, that's not a problem... but if (like me) you can borrow money under the rate of inflation it's a huge benefit.
2. Many employee benefits (401K matching, long-term incentives, etc.) don't vest unless you're with a company for 3-5 years, so switching jobs often can incur a hidden cost of tens of thousands of dollars per year. You probably won't see this immediately on your paycheck but you'll feel it at retirement time.
HTH.
Beauty is just a light switch away.
Something you don't learn in school is that every single company has a single laser-pointed focus: to get the most out of you for the lowest possible salary. This is how it works in good companies and in bad companies.
Something you don't learn in school is that every single employee needs a single laser-pointed focus: to get the most out of the company for the lowest investment of your time. This is how it works in good employees and in bad employees.
Eventually your salary will approach "fair market value" and you won't see massive salary increases, that is called the ceiling. When you hit the ceiling you will focus more on "quality of life" concerns.
Good luck!
I've got to admit, though, I feel a little disloyal at this point.
Why? Do you think they're loyal to you? If you think that, you've got another thought comin'.
Wansu, th' chinese sailor
Dear CHP: You don't really have enough all 'round experience in the 'real world' to ask or even understand such a question. You seem to have no concept of loyalty to an employer, etc. If this was related to being placed by an agency...one agency that you've been with since you left school...I might buy it. Otherwise, you're much too green to be trusted to stick around long enough for you or the employer to really know if you should go or stay.
:)
If I were a recruiter and knew about such moves, I'd be suspicious, regardless of your explanation(s). It sounds more like you've been dismissed after every 90 day probation for the last four hirings.
Also, don't ignore how this will look on credit reports as well - to banks and potential employers. Employers frequently check those these days, so try as you might to gloss over within a resume and you're more likely to just be putting your neck in a noose. Pick a job and stay with it for at least a year. Get more experience out in the world and use that to help pick the job you think you want...later. Otherwise, work for an agency and do your hopping while still showing one employer.
You can always do what most people in the same position do... start your own business and you can change once a week if you like
Is changing relationships too often a bad thing?
Change too often, and your possible significant other may see you as:
1. Superficial or fickle.
2. Incapable of forming a relationship.
3. Irresponsible, immature, or otherwise unable to deal with obligations.
4. Not someone with whom any sort of investment should be made.
Don't change often enough, and you may be considered:
1. Complacent, unmotivated and aspiring to nothing.
2. Generally undesirable, or without talent.
3. Ill-equipped to form any new relationship.
4. Odd.
Like most things in life, our opinions are arrived at in some context. An employer who is seeking a superstar employee will view a stable work record differently than someone looking for to fill an empty slot.
My advice? Try to be mature in your decisions and decide what's right for you. Commitments you do make, however, should be respected. Personally, I've never objected to seeing 3-5 year minimums, given that there's few companies like IBM, GE, etc. around these days, and even fewer Jack Welsh types that you'll be working for. People get divorced at an increasing rate, so it's more acceptable than in the past that an invidividual won't spend his or her career with a single company.
If you're being offered jobs then your new employer is fine with the amount of job-hopping you're doing. If you're not, then you're stuck in your current one until your CV looks better. In either case, you don't need to worry about anything - except for taking a job that you hate, in case you get stuck there.
My Journal
Take the job! Seriously if you get an increase of more than 10% you should take the job. By time the offers stop comming, you'll be in a high paying job and it won't matter if you're not getting offers any more. Don't let anyone tell you otherwise, the only reason to have a job is to get money. All other considerations are secondary. Take the money and run!
With large increases without changing industries or job roles (i.e. .NET developer) across several jobs in a short time I'd suspect OP is not negotiating hard enough.
If other companies can afford to swoop in with a raise like that, you didn't get what you should have out of the company that currently employs you when you took that job in the first place.
If you want to switch, go ahead, but spend a lot of time getting the most you can out of them and then get some negotiating skills under your belt (there's books for that, don't read them at work).
Better yet, just negotiate a higher pay rate within the job you have... you have good evidence the going rate is higher.
Before you switch, ask yourself about the current environment. Is the office an agreeable environment? Do you find the work challenging? Are you motivated? Are there experienced wise older folk to learn from? Does the company treat people well and have sound finances?
These are questions that should stimulate you to think about whether you are happy working there. The grass isn't always greener. The money might be better but this is only one consideration. Working with quality people, learning new skills and technologies, knowing a project has a good chance of success, knowing the company will be around in 6 months are other factors.
Not every project will be a success. Have backup plans for when your team do all get shafted. Perhaps you could say to the boss at the other company "I'm content in my current job but if the situation changes..."
As you're just starting out and earning good money (relative to the rest of the population, perhaps not in your industry just yet) don't be afraid to spend it. Serious stuff like a spouse, mortgage and kids can wait. Travel, see the world. Many contractors enjoy the freedom of working for 6-12 months and then taking a break. 4 weeks annual leave in a permanent job? Once you get over to the other side of the world, 4 weeks is gone in an instant.
Some perspective on what motivates you is more important than worrying about whether you should have taken a 'dream job' or not. My advice, unless you are really offered a huge wad of extra cash, stay in a job while you enjoy it. Patience...
It's all how you cast the situation. If you tell your next prospective employer that you have been consulting, then the short spells at jobs is instantly explained. If they ask questions that make you think they're looking for someone more long-term, then you can either decide to move on or say something like, "Consulting has been fun and I've learned a great deal about many businesses, but I'm looking to change my lifestyle and settle down." But only say the latter if you really mean it, since lying will kill your consulting possibilities long-term as word gets around.
The thing about I.T. is, with a few exceptions it's all project-based. All projects end and most of them finish inside 12 months. Plus, the industry itself is quite turbulent. So whereas a 5-month stint in, say, insurance or finance makes you look fickle or suspect, it's perfectly reasonable and expected in I.T.
But at the end of the day, the real answer as to whether the job-hunting is truly fickle or intentional comes down to how you want to live. If you want something stable, then you are being fickle by hopping jobs. If you'd rather 'do it for the adventure' by consulting, then you're being deliberate and reasonable. Yet, as a previous poster said, make sure that whatever you do you're not leaving anyone in the lurch. If you do short stints, leave after completing the project or a significant milestone, not in the middle.
Do what you can, with what you have, where you are.
"My resume is starting to make me look a bit restless and it worries me."
We had to get through about 100 resumes for two positions that are currently open, and job-hoppers did not make the short list.
The positions are important ones in our company and the learning curve is too high to keep retraining, so we just don't hire people with resumes such as yours.
I've been out of my parent's basement for little more than a year and I have only good things to say about the dating market
Some of those eHarmony chicks are hot!
So far, there doesn't seem to be any lack of demand for a good geek
A real-live woman actually talked to me yesterday
I've got to admit, though, I feel a little disloyal at this point. Several girls have come my way and I've taken them. My list of ex-girlfriends is starting to make me look a bit restless and it worries me
I've yet to make it past the first date
Until now I've just chalked it up to 'It's just hormones,'
One or two of them have restaining orders against me
but now another chick has been dropped into my lap.
I crashed into her shopping cart at the supermarket
Would I be digging my own grave by taking this girl?
{Most likely}
It'd be only my fourth time speaking to a woman in 19 years
{The most accurate statement made so far}
but each offered benefits and a 30% to 40% increase in cup size.
{The most in-accurate statment you've made so far}
I know better than to put a price on satisfaction but I'm pretty certain I'd be happy with her even though all I ever do with girls is hold hands.
{if you're getting that far with this one...hold onto that}
Is being branded as a 'hot potato' enough to keep you from switching? What's your price on this stigma?
"hot potato" = Horny and Fat
A goal is a dream with a deadline
I think there's something to be said for sticking with a company for a while. A lot of permanent employees quit at the first sign of trouble or a better job offer. However, one of the things I like is seeing something I designed get built, released, used, improved and replaced. If you're only at a company for a year, you don't really see the results of your work, or get to learn from your mistakes. It also shows that you're willing to take the good with the bad. I work for a company that just had one of its first unprofitable years. We lost a ton of good people because of that...couldn't afford to pay out raises, etc. However, this year is shaping up to be pretty good. I'm going to get a raise, and life is good.
That said, this isn't the '50s. If you're stuck in a bad job that you know isn't doing anything for your overall career, don't stay. Back in the days of guaranteed lifetime employment and pensions (remember those??) I'm sure it was common for someone to hide in the shadows at an IBM or an AT&T and wait out a bad boss rather than quit. Personally, I wish companies would renew their "social contracts" with long-term employees. That's what made the middle class so strong in the 50s through the 70s...guaranteed income in exchange for good work.
My career advice would be to stay in a job "long enough." But, don't let your skills stagnate. Look for opportunities within your company to grow. If you have a big enough IT department, there should be plenty of places to move around.
Plusses for staying:
Plusses for job-hopping:
Many previous posters have commented on the dangers and risks of frequent job-hopping, and all of them are valid. The sad thing is, these risks don't necessarily diminish when the job leaves you.
Somehow, I've managed to survive as a software engineer in data networking and telecomm equipment, even after the gigantic downturn of 2000-02. But it wasn't without pain. I was laid off in early 2002 (the company closed its Raleigh site to consolidate in NJ, and due to cost-of-living issues, I chose not to chase my job), contracted from 2003 to late 2004, landed a full-time permanent slot after that. Then that position (with a publicly-traded Silicon Valley company, filled with hubris, and no management sense) was yanked in mid-2006. (The company is in a death spiral today, so maybe they did us all a favor.) After 3 months out of work, I managed to land a contracting gig, then convert to full-time late last year.
Now, none of this was my fault; I had no say whatsoever in what happened. But during my latest round of interviews, employers would look at my resume and comment on the job-hopping. I could quickly explain it away, but I always had to explain it.
The moral of the story? Life can suck enough as it is, so don't make it any harder for yourself.
--- The American Way of Life is not a birthright. Hell, it's not even sustainable.
Why is it so bad to only be in it for the money? The vast majority of jobs out there, even if challenging or non trivial, are horrifically menial and unexciting.
You, the average IT coder/admin-person, are not cutting edge. You might write mainframe control scripts or think out test cases for the intranet support web app or code out bussiness logic or write requirements all day. You don't have to be an expert in the field to do your job, although it would undoubtedly help.
Very little of what the vast majority of people in this industry, be they developers or support minions, can be accurately described as "eventful" or "exciting". Only in companies inside the tech industry (and possibly only 'Industry Leader' companies like GOOG or MSFT) and academia will you probably produce anything tangible and worth getting worked up about. If no one working on the same project as you are is writing whitepapers or presenting at conferences or even discussing it at length with an entrenched and involved user community, well, chances are you are probably part of the 90%* of the industry whose work will never be seen outside of your company's intranet.
I used to think that way, too. I was mildly shocked when the manager who was interviewing me for a co-op/junior sort-of-dev position at Large Retailer replied "Well, the money. And I get to see my family" when I asked him the same question. But then I realised, so what? That's perfectly valid. I know very, very few people who work for their self enjoyment first and to pay their bills second. I'd go as far as to say that outside of satisfaction in a job well done, which many people have and share, virtually no one is in a position of actively caring about the Job Itself.
Ideally, I'd love to do something exciting and stay late at work with a smile on my face. However, I know that this is very unlikely unless I start my own company. To that extent, I'm happy to get my self fulfillment through my own free time - my own projects, the girlfriend, etc.
Why is it not enough to be competent and capable? Why demand an unrealistic level of commitment from your employees? Why must we define our life by what we do in our day jobs?
Disclaimer: I'm a young pup who is about to embark on his very first, over-compensated job in Large Bank, still halfway through university.
*Made-up-but-close-to-real-value
I'm thinking that if I saw someone who switched jobs for a 40% salary increase, they're not salary chasing, they were being underpaid. You can only probably do this a couple times anyway until you get to what you're actually worth.