Where Are All of the HDTV Tuners?

An anonymous reader asks: "Today I read about rabbit ears making a comeback with OTA HTDV. I want to purchase a standalone ATSC HDTV tuner to go with my projector, but I am having a very hard time finding one. The big-box stores seem to only stock one or two models and are frequently sold out. Searching online yields similar results. It would seem that there would be ever increasing demand for these tuners given that many HDTVs were sold without internal tuners in years past, and these tuners will be necessary for all old NTSC TVs after the February, 2009 shutdown of analog broadcasts. Where should I look to buy one of these devices? Of the currently available models, which are the best? Will the standalone HDTV tuner become a ubiquitous item as the 2009 deadline approaches?"

Comments

Samsung

[daveschroeder]

If you can find a Samsung SIR-T165, SIR-T451 or DTB-H260F, pick one up.

I have an SIR-T165 and it works great. Tunes all analog cable, OTA analog and digital, plus OTA HDTV. Supports all formats. No broadcast flag, IEEE-1394/FireWire, DVI, VGA/RGB, S-Video, component, composite. Samsung did a really great job packing in a lot of connectors, formats, and functionality. The SIR-T451 appears to add QAM for digital cable (in the clear, no doubt), and HDCP on the DVI.

This doesn't answer the question about where they've all gone, but Samsung did a good job and hopefully you can pick one of these, or something like it, up somewhere.

Re:Samsung

[winnabago]

I use a Samsung SIR-T160 together with an amplified Terk indoor UHF antenna. It outputs to my HD monitor, and I've never been happier. It's a decent unit for tuning, and even shows program guide info where it's available. In an urban area I get ABC, NBC, CBS, CW, 2 feeds of PBS, FOX, and assorted local digital stations. I didn't even bother hooking up the VHF ears to it, because DTV comes in so well.

The Samsung receivers are available on ebay in abundance, well south of 50 bucks-just be careful that you understand how to set the unit to non-DirecTV OTA mode - it may require a used access card to stick in the back.

Also, in response to another post, some digital stations ARE on lower numbered VHF channels, and when the switchover happens, some currently on uhf will move down to vacated space, so don't assume that it's only UHF in your city, or it will always be.

it hasn't been restricted yet

[yagu]

Over the air (OTA) HD isn't restricted yet, but I developed an industry paranoia over the last ten years and don't trust that OTA will:

1. continue to be available, and
2. continue to be unrestricted

One may find themselves with an external OTA tuner and on the outside looking in as to what's available for viewing.

It's probably one of the reasons you don't see many rabbit ear and external tuners available at the electronics stores. And if there is any groundswell to "free" access to HDTV by consumers indicated in trends towards antennas and external tuners I'm guessing the industry will take note, and tighten the thumbscrews on how you can access OTA (e.g., some convoluted cable requirement, or antenna to TV DRM).

As much as I hate cable, satellite (actually I hate satellite a little less than cable), etc., I think going the OTA route could be something you kick yourself for later. Hold your nose, bite your lip, and sign up for cable or satellite (I've had good luck and service from Dish...)

The 2009 deadline....

[croddy]

What was the first time they told us analog TV was going away "real soon! we promise!!"?

Wasn't it something like 1997?

Seriously, guys, I'll believe this one when I see it. The FCC's digital TV broadcast announcements have become a pathetic parody of the boy who cried wolf.

Re:The 2009 deadline....

[kannibal_klown]

Clearly the FCC did a poor job at estimating a timetable and expected HDTV prices to drop much faster than they have, but I see no reason to think that SDTV broadcasts aren't going away eventually.

There's a difference between digital and high-def. The FCC was requiring that all analog broadcasting go digital by year-x to save alot of frequency space. Said broadcasts would still be in standard definition but would require a digital tuner to plug into your TV instead of just bunny ears or roof-racks if your TV didn't already have a digital tuner built in. They weren't mandating that all signals go HD.

So it's not about HDTVs as much as everyone getting off their behinds to make it happen.

Re:The 2009 deadline....

[Overzeetop]

DirecTV has already done it, and that's more than half of the sat world to most consumers. Of course, they cannabalized their (mumble mumble) data service to do it. Dish just keeps adding dishes to the lawn to bring in more sats.

It takes less bandwidth for digital cable than OTA, and having two hundred more shopping channels isn't exactly on consumer's must-have-now list.

10 years is a long time. Consumer HD devices have been out for quite some time, it's been the encoding that has kept the whole thing from going anywhere. Most of the problems with the roll out stem from the FCCs total lack of backbone in setting the standard (singular). Instead, we got a "whatever you guy want" spec that is a royal PITA to implement. And don't even think of arguing VSB or QAM. As a consumer, I don't give a shit which has more technical superiority in certain circumstances - I want it to work. The FCC should have mandated a single type of encoding. Period. We all agree that VHS was chosen over Betamax for user-friendliness over quality - but you get enough eggheads and technophiles in a room with the bean counters and you can pretty much just ask the consumer to drop trou and bend over.

Re:The 2009 deadline....

[Phil Karn]

And don't even think of arguing VSB or QAM. As a consumer, I don't give a shit which has more technical superiority in certain circumstances - I want it to work. VSB and QAM don't even compete with each other, so there's no debate. 8-VSB is used over the air while the various flavors of QAM (64-QAM, 128-QAM, 256-QAM) are used over cable. 8-VSB is specifically designed to resist noise, both digital and analog co-channel interference, multipath and selective fading. This robustness comes at the expense of data rate. 8-VSB over the standard US 6 MHz TV channel provides 19.39 Mb/s.

US cable systems also use 6 MHz channels, so 8-VSB would certainly work over cable too. But it would waste cable capacity because the cable channel is so much cleaner than the broadcast channel. 256-QAM, popular on US cable systems, provides about 38 Mb/s per 6 MHz channel, about twice that of 8-VSB in the same bandwidth. This signal is necessarily more 'fragile' than 8-VSB, but it works fine on a well-engineered hybrid fiber/coax system.

Perhaps you meant to compare 8-VSB to DVB/OFDM, the over-the-air scheme used in Europe and other countries? This is where the debate has raged. OFDM, with its built-in multipath resistance, had a definite advantage over 8-VSB in early implementations. But as the receive equalizers in 8-VSB improved, it has become at least the equal of OFDM according to the on-air tests I've seen. Both work.

Many digital TVs sold in the support both ATSC 8-VSB and QAM signals. 8-VSB is obviously needed for over-the-air reception, but you can't necessarily receive digital TV from your cable system even if you have a QAM tuner. My experience with Time Warner Cable is that all of the digital TV channels are encrypted except for the minority taken from local TV broadcast stations. In other words, with just a QAM tuner in your set you can't get anything from cable that you can't get from an antenna. This makes the QAM tuner much less useful than it could be.

Some (but not many) digital TVs have slots for a "CableCard". You rent this from your local cable company, and it decrypts the remaining digital channels for you (or at least the ones to which you have subscribed). Besides not being available yet on most digital TVs, current CableCards are unable to handle two-way services such as video-on-demand and pay-per-view, so it's just not very useful yet. That means you might as well rent a digital tuner box from your cable company and plug it into your TV set with HDMI so that you don't use the TV's QAM tuner at all.

Buy a Mac mini and an Elgato EyeTV Hybrid

[SuperKendall]

At least one compact tuner is the Elgato EyeTV hybrid. Use that with a Mac mini, and you have a great DVR that does OTA HD as well as standard def TV - and all of the video recorded is DRM free, transcode away or burd to DVD or do whatever.

rabbit ears are useless for HD

[gEvil (beta)]

Rabbit ears are generally useless for picking up HD signals. Rabbit ears pick up VHF signals, while almost all of the HD broadcasts are done in the UHF range. In order to pickup HD signals you'll need to get either a directional UHF antenna (my Silver Surfer works great), a loop UHF antenna, or one of those grid things that you can stick in your attic.

HD home run (ethernet with 2 tuners)

[TheGratefulNet]

http://www.silicondust.com/

go read up. you need a pc (this isn't an end-user device that connects directly to a tv) but it DOES have atsc and clear-qam. meaning: off the air and also cable unencrypted.

seems to work, too. I love mine. 1 channel of HD takes 15% of a 10/100 ether. gig-e is not even close to needed, here, thankfully. (all the work is in PLAYBACK, not saving to disk, btw).

Re:Why?

[NewWorldDan]

30% of the population (including me!) doesn't feel the need to pay for TV. I get OTA digital, which kicks ass. Most of the time. Mostly, I just don't watch that much OTA programming. Also, a lot of what seems to be on cable or satalite isn't actually HD. It's digital, but it's only provided in 480. On the other hand, to refer back to the OP question, there is very little demand for digital set top boxes. Most of the early HD adopters either bought a box at the time, or get everything via cable/satellite. Also, when you look at it, the set top box costs $250, while you can get a new 27" or larger TV for that price. In short, screw Flanders.

$180

[davidwr]

For that price by the time OTA analog goes dark you should be able to get a VCR or DVR with an HD tuner built in.

I like the LG 3510A

[glennrrr]

I have a couple LG 3510A's in the house, and recommend them for OTA use, very flexible devices, lots of output ports. Forget the fact they are DVD players; too flakey. Every now and again there are a bunch of refurbished players on eBay. Don't overpay, look for ones marked as having bad DVD playback. As for where the standalone tuner boxes went. They are only useful for people who (a) don' have a HD cable box, and (b) don't have a QAM/ATSC tuner built right in their TV. Also, a growing fraction of people have some sort of media PC with a tuner attached. You'll notice there are plenty of choices there. (I like the networked HDHomeRun).

Re:Why?

[LurkerXXX]

Those are the only shows you like on OTA. I like others as well.

Sorry, I have no desire to get satellite or cable. There's no way I'm going to pay money to watch commercials.

Every Device Must Have One!

[Xesdeeni]

What gets me is that we are 3 days from the March 1, 2007 date when every device with an analog tuner, must have a digital one (see "Digital Receiver Availability and FCC Tuner Requirements"). That means not only all TVs (even 13" and below), but also VCRs, DVD recorders, etc. But where are they?

Xesdeeni

Re:Every Device Must Have One!

[Overzeetop]

Maybe everyone has applied for hardship extensions - hey, it kept all but one of my local stations from having to convert to digital broadcasts for 4-5 years.

Seriously, though, I'd forgotten it was coming up because it had been delayed so long. Of course, we could all be watching HD on either full sets or STBs if the FCC had had the balls to decide on a single ATSC format 20 years ago. Instead, they "let the industry and market forces" decide. Apparently, the industry prefers a clusterfuck, 'cause that's what they got.

There are two possibilities for the lack of digital tuners: (1) there's so much stock that we won't see them for a year and/or (2) every body is switching to providing "monitors" witht he next release, figuring it's still more profitable to produce a small set without any tuner than to have to include a digital tuner. With the market penetration of cable and satellite STBs, they may not be wrong (much to the dismay of the 10-15% of us that still get terrestrial broadcasts over the air).

HDHomeRun (ethernet with 2 tuners)

[tivojafa]

The silicondust website is currently having issues. Google cache: http://www.google.com/search?q=cache:LJZMm-6NRmkJ: www.silicondust.com/wiki/products/hdhomerun+silico ndust.com&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=2&gl=us 9thtee: http://www.9thtee.com/hdhomerun.htm

Samsung TR451at circuit city

[Anonymous Coward]

I would recomend Over The Air digital to anyone. I was also puzzled by the lack of tuners when I went looking for one about 4 months ago.

There are many more digital channels available in minneapolis than on NTSC (normal) broadcast. I get 7 PBS stations over the air digitally. I get a just for kids Qubo station. I get an all music video with no comercials station. I get 2 weather channels. Plus I get all the local channels in high def, digital perfection and a digital guide. Why would anyone view over the air on NTSC?

I view this on my beutiful Westinghouse 42' LCD at 1080i but I'm pretty sure my tuner would output to an old 480i CRT TV.

The Samsung TR451 works pretty well but I have a few quibbles. The guide takes a while to load the information when I press the guide button. The channels take longer to change than a regular TV.

Don't confuse Digital with HD TV

[josecanuc]

The FCC requirement for transmission and TV sales is for DIGITAL TV, which is not necessarily HD, though it can be.

DTV is not required to be HD.

Chances are your local broadcast stations will only be transmitting in HD those prime-time and sports programming. Expect regular morning and afternoon programming to be standard definition with alternate-language or alternate image in the sub-channels (a single DTV "channel" can have 4 SD sub-programs or 1 HD program stream). Some stations are using one sub-channel to show real-time weather RADAR, others do Spanish programming or children's programming.

I would guess that the predicted-cheap-and-ubiquitous set-top-boxes will not support HD since the goal is to get older TVs to still watch this new digital stuff. (Clearly you will not be able to get a higher definition picture on your old tube!)

Also: where are the _downconverters?_

[dpbsmith]

We're perfectly happy with our 100-pound 27" CRT-based television receiver and the quality of the pictures we receive over the air, with one exception: we don't get channel 2, the local PBS affiliate, very well. I'd love to be ready for the HDTV switchover, and, even if it never happens, I'd still love to be able to view a downconverted version of WGBH's HDTV signal, which should be pretty good (since our UHF reception is very good).

Every six months or so I wander into a Best Buy or a Tweeter and ask.

Not only do they not have them, they often don't seem to know what I'm talking about.

Since my understanding is that The Plan, when they pull the plug on VHF/UHF, is for people that can't afford all-new TVs to buy downconverters... and that The Price is supposed to be in the $20 range.. you'd think that _a few_ would be available _now_, for, say, $100?

None available, at any price, through normal retail channels. In my (admittedly limited) personal experience.

Something about this does not make sense...

Something

Cheat Sheet

[fo0bar]

Most of this information has been repeated in the comments here already, but I thought I'd sum up the dates and whatnot:

(From Wikipedia) The FCC has issued the following mandates for devices entering the US:

        * By July 1, 2005 all televisions with screen sizes over 36" must include a built-in ATSC DTV tuner

        * By March 1, 2006 all televisions with screen sizes over 25" must include a built-in ATSC DTV tuner

        * By March 1, 2007 all televisions regardless of screen size, and all interface devices which include a tuner (VCR, DVD player/recorder, DVR) must include a built-in ATSC DTV tuner

That's 3 days from now, AND includes things like TV tuner cards, which explains why companies like Hauppauge just released a "budget" dual NTSC/ATSC line, the HVR-950/1600.

        * A Congressional bill has authorized subsidizing converter boxes that would allow people to receive the new digital broadcasts on their old TVs. The current plan is to make two $40 coupons available from January 1, 2008 through March 31, 2009 for each household that relies exclusively on over-the-air television reception.

        * In the United States, the switch-off of all analog terrestrial TV broadcasts has been mandated for no later than February 17, 2009. Legislation setting this deadline was signed into law in early 2006. Currently, most U.S. broadcasters are beaming their signals in both analog and digital formats; a few are digital-only.

So, expect to see ATSC tuners become more plentiful in early 2008, once the subsidies start rolling in.

Let's be even more clear about this

[Mariner28]

Let's be even more clear about this.

Analog over-the-air television broadcasting is going away. The OP is confusing SDTV (Standard Definition digital TV) with Analog. SDTV is still digital - it's just at the same resolution as analog NTSC - 480 visible scan lines (525 including non-visible vertical blanking interval).

SDTV is not going away: stand-alone SDTV tuners will allow you to receive digital TV and convert it to analog for display on your old TV, or for recording on you even older VCR.

It's lights-out for analog TV over-the-air broadcasting in 2009. Analog via cable is another matter. As long as the cable companies can squeeze dollars from that turnip, it will continue.

Re:Why?

[Joe Snipe]

Next time on prison brake:

Junior Guard: "Oh no!! The prison is out of control! Help!!!"

Senior Guard: "We must stop this prison at once! Call the commisioner!"

(crashing sounds, scraping metal)

Junior Guard: "Theres no time! We can't stop it!!"

(prisoner 4812 enters the room)

Prisoner 4812: "I can stop this prison. Using the brake."

Senior Guard: "You? But, you are a prisoner! Exactly why should I trust you?!?"

Prisoner 4812: "Because I'm the only one who can stop this prison, dammit!"

(more crashing sounds, ground shakes uncontrollably)

Senior Guard: "Make it so."

Will they stop the prison in time? Will prisoner 4812 double cross the senior guard?
Patrick Stewart guest stars in an unforgettable episode of Prison Brake!

Because

[Groo Wanderer]

Does BitTorrent over 802.11x count as OTA? :)

              -Charlie

Re:Samsung SIR-TS160

[manekineko2]

I too have one of these Samsung units. It's a good tuner. Originally it was a DirecTV receiver with cable NTSC and over the air ATSC and NTSC support for local channels. I got it for something like 20 bucks on eBay and disabled the DirecTV part of it, now it's just a fine ATSC/NTSC/cable tuner box. I'm quite pleased with it. I think one reason they go for so cheap is because this line had a funny quirk where if you leave it unplugged for a while, when you plug it back in, it won't work at first. All you get is a black screen and/or some clicking sounds. After a couple hours though something in the unit gets warmed up again and it works fine. This issue is well-documented online and easily resolved, but a lot of "broken" units show up on eBay this way.

Re:Why?

[AJWM]

Yep, haven't seen the need for cable or satellite in about ten years now. Rarely watch any OTA TV either, for that matter. Any TV series worth the time to watch are worth buying the season DVD set a year (or so) after it airs, and over the course of a 20 episode season you'll save yourself five or more hours by not having the commercials.