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Paying for Better Math and Science Teachers

Posted by ScuttleMonkey on from the get-what-you-pay-for dept.

Coryoth writes "While California is suffering from critical shortage of mathematics and science teachers, Kentucky is considering two bills that would give explicit financial incentives to math and science students and teachers. The first bill would provide cash incentives to schools to run AP math and science classes, and cash scholarships to students who did well on AP math and science exams. The second bill provides salary bumps for any teachers with degrees in math or science, or who score well in teacher-certification tests in math, chemistry and physics. Is such differentiated pay the right way to attract science graduates who can make much more in industry, or is it simply going to breed discontent among teachers?"

32 of 660 comments (clear)

  1. We have a winner! by Stanistani · · Score: 4, Insightful

    >...or is it simply going to breed discontent among teachers?

    Ding-ding-ding-ding-ding!

    --
    You can't talk about Wikipedia's flaws on Wikipedia
    1. Re:We have a winner! by Jordan+Catalano · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Wait a sec...

      or is it simply going to breed discontent among under-qualified teachers?

      Fixed it.

    2. Re:We have a winner! by endianx · · Score: 5, Insightful
      I agree with most of your post.

      Teachers work their asses off Some teachers work their asses off. And those teachers deserve to be paid more than the ones that don't. As I understand it, that is not the way it is now and teacher's unions go crazy whenever somebody tries to change it.
    3. Re:We have a winner! by krlynch · · Score: 4, Informative

      Isn't that worth more than a pittance?

      According to salary.com, the median income for a "high school teacher" in the United States is currently either $49839 or $69120 if you include benefits. The Census Bureau reports that in 2005, the median household income (which includes more or less the same set of benefits quoted by salary.com) was $46,326. Do we pay teachers enough? I don't know the answer to that question ... but the median teacher is clearly not earning a "pittance" for their time. Perhaps it is a pittance compared to what they might be earning in the private sector, but I don't have enough information to make a decision either way....

    4. Re:We have a winner! by ottothecow · · Score: 4, Insightful
      If you look at the university level, professors are certainly not paid the same (it varies a HUGE amount based on field unlike high school teachers).

      Professors have to be paid based on the opportunity cost decisions they must make and as such people like phyiscs professors, economics professors, law professors, etc make a lot more money than english, classics, history type professors. This may not seem fair since they both do the same sort of work, teaching classes possibly consisting of the exact same students but you have to think about their other options. A physics professor could make good money in industry instead of teaching and similarily the opportunity cost of a law professor teaching is being a lawyer and the cost to an econ professor of teaching is the possibility of making a ton of money in business/consulting. If you are going get qualified professors in these fields, you are going to have to pay them a wage closer to what they could earn outside of acadamia.

      The only reason I see this not being a valid case for high school teachers is that there is a bigger qualification gap. I feel fairly confident that given a curriculum (and I guess the education credits needed to qualify me to do so) I could teach science or algebra to a bunch of 16 year olds or show them how to construct a thesis but I am in no way qualified to be a college professor which would require me to possess a PhD in my field (which usually assumes a masters) and extensive time investment before being granted a real professorship. As a matter of fact, I remember being taught courses in high school by instructers who clearly had not studied the subject they were teaching...

      Thus I see why the pay-gap is a legitimate idea but it probobly doesnt apply well enough to high school teachers (who dont necessarily have the qualifications to make the opportunity cost argument valid)

      --
      Bottles.
    5. Re:We have a winner! by Cramer · · Score: 5, Insightful

      You obviously don't work in education. Public schools are run more by politics than credentials and experience. There are lots of people able and willing to teach, but they will not put up with the crap pay and bullshit politics to do it.

    6. Re:We have a winner! by bendodge · · Score: 5, Interesting

      Teachers are not teachers anymore, they are babysitters.This sentence was not only relavent to the issue in the article, but is characteristic of so many of the problems with our education system right now from parents expecting schools to raise their kids and teach them values to our failing grades compared with the rest of the world. I don't think that its just the bureaucracy of structured classes, but with the teachers' lack of ability to control a classroom. Of course, that's a whole other can of worms. Yes, that is a huge can of worms.

      My father has been a teacher for almost 20 years, and describes the life cycle of a teacher like this:

      1. Someone becomes a teacher, not for the pay, but in order to better the world.
      2. They are very enthusiastic, and spin their wheels with enthusiasm.
      3. About 5-10 years into it, they get cynical. But with that many years behind them, they are not going to switch careers. He also discussed the government programs issue:

      1. A program is created and deployed with high hopes (except for the cynical teachers who have been through the last 3 programs.)
      2. It generates a lot of (fake) steam, then is loopholed and "special-ed"ed out of commission, at which point everybody forgets the name.
      3. The program is about to expire, and everything will go back to traditional mode. This creates a lawsuit hazard, as tens of thousands of students suddenly must pass a test or miss their diploma.
      4. A new program is hastily implemented to keep the scores inflated and keep to the students rolling through (read: no lawsuits). Another problem is "special ed". Here is the story behind 85% of the students in special ed:

      1. A student is ultra-lazy and isn't passing.
      2. Parents roar at the teacher, and send their kid to the school shrink. At this point the student pays attention and dons his worst intellect, in order to pass the evaluation.
      3. He is assigned a monitor who is specially responsible to keep an eye on his school (read: make sure he passes).
      4. The student has a lot less work to do (the basic package is 1/2 the homework, and it gets worse as you go along), and the teacher is given a dossier (they have some politically correct name for it) on the kid's "condition", and he is required to tailor his lessons for that child's benefit. (There is naturally no way a teacher can tailor the class for a dozen individual kids.)
      5. The student passes with good grades, and gets his diploma. He got by with minimal work, the parents are happy, and nobody got sued.
      5. Since you can't discriminate against the handicapped or retarded, the diploma has no mention of the fact that the student didn't actually do the work, or that he has any condition. Now, the program does do much good for the truly handicapped people, but there are very few people who have anything wrong with them, except for their work ethic.

      As for classroom discipline:

      1. You cannot touch or search a kid without getting sued by the parents or the ACLU.
      2. You cannot dock their grade without the parents getting zealous.
      3. You may only send them to the office, where the overworked principle (who spends "half his time making sure we comply with regulations") tells the student to behave or face staying home from school (sounds silly, but it really irks the parents, who suddenly have a kid to babysit).
      4. If the teacher saw the kid's drugs, the principle calls the students mom to come (no way will he tell the kid to drop his pants for a search without a parent present). The kid is then sent to the school police officer, and I don't know what he does with him.
      5. There isn't much else to do. It is a general case of lazy kids, a lawyer-happy ACLU, terrible parenting, and staggering bureaucratic overhead.
      --
      The government can't save you.
    7. Re:We have a winner! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Interesting

      In my small town (as I'm sure it is in many others) the public elects the Board of Education to oversee the system. The Board hires and fires. And this Board is answerable to the voters - who have a right to say "you will do thus-and-so" OR ELSE (you're out).

      The majority have the right to petition and, said petition getting the appropriate quantity of signatures, put pretty much whatever topic they want to a referendum vote - a vote that can even do such things as modify (within the state guidelines) the curriculum OR direct the Board to refuse to renew the teacher's union contract and hire teachers independently (as many private schools do) and determine their salaries by an entirely different set of guidelines than the union's "pay us, or else"-type of negotiation.

      I'd heard (no, I don't have a source yet but will look for it) that some years ago some small mid-American town DID that and offered to rehire all the teachers at their current level and go by merit afterward.

      The union sued, the State said that it's not illegal not to renew a contract (and the Town was willing to hire the teachers independently). The voters made it plain that they would ONLY entertain one-year contracts (apparently it was THAT small a town that they had the luxury) and renegotiate every year "so, you're not gonna get anywhere 'cause we have plenty of teachers willing to work off-contract just to be ABLE to teach".

      They weren't trying to bust the union by forcing unionees out of their jobs by hiring replacements, they just didn't want to renew the teachers' "service contract" (i.e. "we will perform [services] for [price]") about the same way you might not want to renew the service contract on your furnace and choose to hire your own qualified individual to maintain it (since fire marshalls and insurance companies are picky about competent labor on such devices).

      Apparently a separate committee, unknown to the union, had interviewed and culled individuals with good teaching credentials (either unemployed or employed out-of-field) for potential part-time-leading-to-full-time employment and had non-disclosures to prevent the union from finding out. Can you say "ace-in-the-hole"?

      Apparently the union desisted, same teachers, same jobs, many left & were replaced (all were invited to reapply before the independents were allowed to try), on merit pay, the student's scores went up appropriately, the pay went up appropriately, and everyone eventually won except the union-mongers.

      I like a happy ending - whether it may be a true story or not.

    8. Re:We have a winner! by AK+Marc · · Score: 5, Interesting

      I can attest to the fact that the rigmarole educators are put through today is a major turnoff.

      I graduated from Texas A&M. Because I was in the electrical engineering program before changing to computer science and there was one non-overlap math class, I actually have more math than needed to be an electrical engineer (and that, I believe, ties for the most math needed for any degree, after math majors of course). So, when I was looking at possibly teaching, I found out that I would have to go back and take some remedial math classes. Sure, a couple semesters of differential equations won't help me with algebra, but to go back for remedial math after having taken years of calculus and applied math just turned me off. I can pass any test they can give me about the subject matter. But unless I go back for the remedial math classes, I can't teach it. What is needed is an easy path for professionals to enter education after years of gathering experience in the real world. Until that path is easy, I'm not going to go back to school for 2 years just to be able to apply for the jobs. They should be seeking me out, not putting up hurdles.

      --
      Learn to love Alaska
  2. Teacher shortage? by bdr529 · · Score: 5, Insightful
    If there is, as the article suggests, a "critical shortage of mathematics and science teachers" in CA, and that the "problem with advanced math and science is that those with the education to teach it can make a lot more money not teaching it", then it should be painfully obvious that if you wish to correct this "shortage" of talent, you'll need to up the pay scale of math and science teachers to make it an attractive career choice.

    Either that, or enslave post-grads for a few years and FORCE them to work at public school wages. That'll work... Yeah.

    Is such differentiated pay the right way to attract science graduates who can make much more in industry, or is it simply going to breed discontent among teachers?"
    I hate "IS/OR" questions like this. The answer to both is YES. Pay which is competative with industry will attract science grads to teach. It will also cause "discontent among teachers" who somehow feel that all teachers should earn the same -- regardless of education/demand for certain skillsets.

    Queue the teachers union to strike/protest.

    1. Re:Teacher shortage? by richieb · · Score: 4, Insightful
      The problem is that a person with a science or math degree can get a job that pays 40-80K right out of college, where a teacher's salary starts around 30 and doesn't really go much higher than that.

      You need to keep in mind that teachers do not work 40+ hours/week and they get the summers off. Pay rate would be better expressed in dollars per hour. My wife is an English teacher (a damn good one too!) and I'm a sofware engineer. My yearly salary is more than twice hers, but if you count the hours (counting 50hrs/week for me) she gets better pay per hour.

      --
      ...richie - It is a good day to code.
    2. Re:Teacher shortage? by Coryoth · · Score: 5, Interesting

      You know, one of the proponents from the original article makes that very point:
      "He pointed out that an English teacher doesn't have to be a great writer to teach reading and writing, but that the same is not true of high-end math and science courses." I think this is an important point. It can be overstated, but real fluency in mathematics can make a great deal of difference to how well it is taught. Most students can appreciate the value of learning to read or write, but will more often tend to question the value of mathematics. It takes a teacher with good mathematical knowledge (often well beyond the level they are teaching) to provide the extra depth to mathematics that can help engage students. Finland noted this around 2000 and set up a series of reforms that saw strong encouragement for elementary school teachers to take advanced math classes. The result is that Finland is now ranked among the very top countries in the world with respect to the achievements of their students in mathematics.

      Of course, at the higher levels of English, having a teacher well versed in literature can make all the difference with regard to engaing students in studying Shakespeare and the classics. I don't think you should sell short the value of a well educated English teacher - it is just that that value tends be increase later in schooling rather than earlier.
      --
      Craft Beer Programming T-shirts
    3. Re:Teacher shortage? by Coryoth · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Are you telling me you never had a teacher who either didn't know their subject or couldn't communicate with students and used the same overhead transparencies for the last 15 years? They seemed to be plentiful throughout my academic experience. My point is that with math, it is possible to squeak by on just knowing the end result without knowing how to get there. Ah, but an important point is that mathematics is an incredibly layered subject. New material builds on the previous material in layer upon layer, and that means that if a student falls behind a little, they find themselves unable to catch up as the subject moves on away from them. They are essentially left chasing a horizon they can never quite reach. This is dispiriting and depressing and, to be frank, is much of the reason why so many students hate mathematics. With mathematics one single bad teacher can pretty much end your mathematics career - believe me, I've heard exactly that story from a vast number of people. Other subjects tend to have similar issues, but none are quite as unforgiving in this regard as mathematics. If you don't quite grasp a particular section in English or History your odds of coping with the next section are not appreciably diminished (barring the first couple of years of reading and writing), whil in mathematics it can be exceptionally detrimental. Bad math teachers have a huge impact on students.
      --
      Craft Beer Programming T-shirts
    4. Re:Teacher shortage? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Informative

      The problem is that a person with a science or math degree can get a job that pays 40-80K right out of college, where a teacher's salary starts around 30 and doesn't really go much higher than that.
      You need to keep in mind that teachers do not work 40+ hours/week and they get the summers off. Pay rate would be better expressed in dollars per hour. My wife is an English teacher (a damn good one too!) and I'm a sofware engineer. My yearly salary is more than twice hers, but if you count the hours (counting 50hrs/week for me) she gets better pay per hour. Your right, teachers don't work 40 hours per week. On a typical day, I am at school from 7 am to 3 pm (8 hours x 5). Every Tuesday there is a staff meeting, lasting about an hour. I also have students stay after school until around 4 at least once a week, especially if we have a test the following day. Then I get to go home and spend time grading, writing lesson plans, creating assignments, etc., all of which work out to about 6 hours per week. So that brings me pretty close to your 50 hours per week.

      As for summers off, keep in mind that most (good) teachers use that time to further their own education, whether its working towards the Master's degree that you are required to obtain within 5 years, or taking addition subject courses to enhance the students' experiences and expand the number of courses the teacher can teach.

      What people not in the education field also do not take into account is the sheer exhaustion that comes from teaching. Imagine having to give a 45 minutes presentation to 25 co-workers every day. Now imagine doing it 4-5 times per day. And keep in mind, it has to be a DIFFERENT presentation every day. And it damn well better be entertaining...and interactive...and inquiry-based.

      In conclusion, this comment is not the ranting of a disgruntled teacher who feels the world owes him a big "thank you". I love teaching and, at least right now, can't think of anything else I'd rather do for a career. I just want to try to set the record straight on how much work goes into "getting summers off".
    5. Re:Teacher shortage? by hoggoth · · Score: 4, Interesting

      My favorite anecdote was my Junior High science teacher who, trying to emphasize how complex the brain is, told us 'There are more brain cells in the brain than atoms in the universe.'
      I raised my hand and said 'If brain cells are made out of atoms that is clearly impossible.' She disagreed. We argued and I got detention for undermining her in front of the class.

      I think the point she was trying to make was that there are more possible interconnections between brains cells in the brain than atoms in the universe, which is still wrong.

      Sigh. I wonder how many kids thought I was being a wiseass vs how many realized how stupid the teacher's statement was.

      --
      - For the complete works of Shakespeare: cat /dev/random (may take some time)
    6. Re:Teacher shortage? by jeppster · · Score: 5, Informative

      ...teachers do not work 40+ hours/week
      False. My wife (8th grade teacher) gets to work at 7:25 and leaves usually at 4:00. She usually spends an average of 1 hour every night doing extra work. Her lunch hour is about 40 minutes. That adds up to 50 hours a week when you include the extra weekend work.

      ...and they get the summers off
      True. Almost three months is a LOT of vacation. I'd say she gets 14 weeks off over the course of a year. That translates to 560 hours of a 40 hour week.

      Now, consider that 50 hours a week times the 38 weeks of working = 1900 hours. That brings up a net difference of 100 hours of extra work I do over the course of a year (assuming standard 2000 hour year). The ratio of her total hours to my total hours (0.95) compared to the ratio of her salary to my salary (software developer) (0.65) is not encouraging.
  3. if it breeds discontent, so be it. by yagu · · Score: 4, Insightful

    This proposed system to get better math and science educators and educations sounds like a meritocracy approach, which may be a foreign concept to some in the heavily union-controlled teacher community. It would seem that something as important as the education of our children the most important goal would be to fund and organize the most effective educational system possible.

    While I don't know the intricacies of the teachers' unions, I've had enough discussions with my sister, a teacher, to suspect the best interests of the children are rarely in play in decsions around who should teach and how much those who teach should be paid. If this is really true, it is probably the wrong approach.

    A central tenet of the school pay system appears to be their main stumbling block: FTA:

    Like all Kentucky public school districts, Beechwood has a set pay scale for teachers based on experience. There is no differential pay for teaching tougher or less-desirable courses.

    There's a certain insanity to the notion that different demand-disciplines (in the market workplace) should not help guide salary distribution in the teaching systems. High-demand, high-pay disciplines should drive high-pay teaching positions. If an English teacher's 50% cut to a Physics teacher's pay bothers the English teacher, he (she) need only get the necessary background to qualify to teach physics. It seems like a simple equation... it's kind of (not exactly) how it works in the job market.

    I'm all for a meritocracy for teachers, and not just in the math and sciences. Unfortunately, from past observations, as long as government runs educational systems, and unions govern teacher selection, the "finest education" for the children is likely the last result we'll see.

    Want to place odds on whether Kentucky pulls off getting these bills passed? And, if passed, want to double down on the teachers' unions' resistance? That said, good luck to Kentucky... I hope they pull it off.

    1. Re:if it breeds discontent, so be it. by garcia · · Score: 5, Insightful

      A central tenet of the school pay system appears to be their main stumbling block

      That's a stumbling block of *all* unionized workplaces. Instead of paying people based on their performance they pay everyone based on their years in.

      This type of reward system creates an environment that's filled with indifference. "Why should I work hard and come up with new and exciting lesson plans when I'm going to be paid exactly the same as Bob Smith who sits on his tenured ass and doesn't engage the students at all?"

      It's a real problem where I used to work and it was compounded with supervisors that have limited budgets and individuals used to receiving their yearly raises and not looking for upward advancement. So you have people that do nothing more than the bare minimum, don't have any goals, and are just happy to be great at making themselves look busier than they really are while complaining that Joe is working hard and making them look bad.

  4. May backfire by crow · · Score: 5, Interesting

    Depending on how this is funded, it may backfire. If the state is paying the salary difference directly, that may work, but otherwise school districts will avoid hiring teachers who qualify for the extra pay to keep within budget. The system already makes it quite difficult for experienced teachers to get jobs; my wife was once told by a principal that he would love to hire her, but the superintendent said he would only approve up to three years of experience.

  5. Simple logic by TheRealMindChild · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Teachers face the same hurdles that you may experience in the IT field. Most of us have been in the position where you ae looking to take on a job that you are more than qualified for. You get the "We think you are overqualified for this position", which translates to "You are bound to want too much money". The same applies to teachers.

    --

    "When life gives you lemons, don't make lemonade. Make life take the lemons back!" -- Cave Johnson
  6. Why I'm Not a Teacher by Paulrothrock · · Score: 5, Insightful

    I'd like to be a teacher. Some of the greatest influences on my life have been teachers. I like teaching kids science and computers, and I've got a talent for it.

    But I'll never be a teacher under current systems.

    I'm not patient with kids who don't get it and insist on me walking them through everything. None of my favorite teachers were either. I'm not respectful of authority either, unless it's earned that respect. None of my favorite teachers were either. And if parents insist that little Taylor or Brittany didn't earn the C they got on the test, I'll tell them where they can shove their complaints. And I'm not about to waste my time teaching kids for a test. Some of the best lessons in life can't be tested. I'd reward kids for creativity, an inquisitive nature, the questioning of current thinking, and for making me look dumb. All the kinds of things my favorite teachers rewarded me for.

    I feel that, in this current climate, I wouldn't last a year as that kind of teacher. In fact, two of my favorite teachers got fired after I had them because of complaints and friction with the administration. And they were replaced with robots designed to make more robots. Indeed, most of the teachers I remember fondly only lasted as long as they did because they produced results despite friction with the administration and parents.

    --
    I'm in the hole of the broadband donut.
    1. Re:Why I'm Not a Teacher by richieb · · Score: 5, Insightful
      I'm not patient with kids who don't get it and insist on me walking them through everything.

      Good thing you are not a teacher. What you are saying that you could do that job only when it's easy. Anyone can.

      Being able to control, teach and inspire kids that are not at all interested in the subject is something that a great teacher can do. That's where the art of teaching comes in.

      I taught computer programming adults who were quite motivated to learn. This was a piece of case. My wife teaches engilish to 7th graders in an urban school. After few months all her students love her and many learn to love literature. Teaching in that environment is a completely different skill.

      --
      ...richie - It is a good day to code.
  7. This is exactly why I no longer teach. by Kris_B_04 · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Pay is a serious issue with teaching (I won't even get started on the rest of the issues).

    "Is such differentiated pay the right way to attract science graduates who can make much more in industry, or is it simply going to breed discontent among teachers?"

    Science and Math are good starting points. But don't stop there!
    The entire United States Educational System needs a complete overhaul.

    Teachers should teach because they enjoy it. Being "attracted" into it isn't going to make them be good teachers. In fact, it may turn out like college where you get the really bright mathematicians and scientists teaching, but they can't relate worth a darn to the students.

    Money is also a good start. Really talented people end up leaving the profession because they simply can't pay the bills. Making the pay more competitive will keep more of the good teachers. Fixing some of the other problems will also retain teachers, but getting the teachers in, paying them better and teaching (or allowing) them to be good teachers is what needs to happen, nation-wide, not just Kentucky or California.

    The overhaul must start somewhere, and if they look at pay first, that's great. You can eventually weed out the poor teachers, keep the good teachers and our children will finally have an education they deserve!! (Without having to move overseas to truly educate them well.)

    So, it's a start. But it can't stop there. Yes, there will be discontent among teachers but once the ball starts rolling and things improve for one and all, then everyone wins.

    My thoughts as an ex-teacher,
    Kris

    --
    Remember when Windows were washed, mice were trapped and UNIX guarded the harem?
  8. Re:Here is a thought by NETHED · · Score: 5, Insightful

    EXACTLY! Not everyone should go to college. I know far to many "business" majors, or "communications" majors who leave college after 4-5 years of drunkenness (see face-book...) with a huge student loan and expect to earn 50K+ per year. Then the reality of the marketplace hits like a ton of bricks and you have these 'grads' earning a bit above minimum wage working retail or something unrelated to their college education.

    There is an unhealthy stigma that goes along with people not going to college, and I disagree with it. College, while wonderful for some, is not good for others. 2 year trade schools, or apprenticeships should be encouraged far more than they are. And this is relevant to the topic because the students are told by their teachers that if they don't go to college, they will be useless to society. (or at least thats how I was taught)

    There is a problem with the teaching system in the United States, and it starts with the students being far too empowered. If little Johnny does something wrong, teacher (rightly!) punishes Johnny, he cries to Mommy, and Mommy sides with Johnny. Teacher's hands are tied and so they stop caring. I have plenty of friends that are teachers, and this is a common story. There are more problems, but I firmly believe that the problem originates at discipline.

    --
    --sig fault--
  9. Re:Across the pond. by Colin+Smith · · Score: 4, Interesting

    There is a great shortage of a physics and chemistry teachers Bollocks there is, a good friend of mine is a qualified and experienced physics teacher, can't get a permanent position.

    You know... Teaching used to be a very well paying and highly respected profession. Then they nationalised it.

    --
    Deleted
  10. Comment removed by account_deleted · · Score: 5, Interesting

    Comment removed based on user account deletion

  11. Re:Here is a thought by X_Bones · · Score: 4, Funny

    Sure, you dumbed down your curriculum to a 5th grade level, but you're school scored 100!

    ah, irony...

    --

    the coolest club on /.
  12. I work for Public Education by Archangel+Michael · · Score: 4, Insightful

    I work for public education, and get to visit many a classroom and the thought of putting my kid in a public school scares the crap out of me so much, that my kids don't go to public school, they attend a homestudy charter school. Both will graduate High School with upto two years of college credits, something not even offered in public schools.

    I've seen good and bad teachers in the schools I work in, and quite frankly, there aren't enough good teachers. Period. Like the teacher who was teaching life lessons from the master "Rikki Lake" (No kidding). Or the Social Science Teacher teaching made up crap and opinions as "fact". Or the Math teacher who didn't know the formula for the area of a circle (No kidding), Or the teacher that has four computers on his desk and that is all he does all day, instead of teaching the special education kids in his charge, or .....

    It is pretty scary stuff, if you ask me. The scariest part is that NONE of the teachers I mentioned could be fired, because the Union says so. It is clear that the Union doesn't really care about their profession, or it would be EMBARRASSED of many of its members.

    I feel really sorry about those teachers that are actually good. However, they cannot overcome the crap coming from the worst of them. Sad, but true.

    --
    Agent K: A *person* is smart. People are dumb, stupid, panicky animals, and you know it.
  13. EVERYTHING breeds discontent in teachers by BIG_E_IN_V_T · · Score: 4, Interesting

    My mother is a teacher, a lot of my friends are teachers, and I worked IT at a high school. I've never seen another profession that whines and complains as much as teachers. It's engrained in their culture. It's how they socialize. They will complain about anything and everything.

  14. Sorry, I don't babysit by DoofusOfDeath · · Score: 4, Insightful

    I've sometimes considered teaching, but after seeing what a relative went through when earning her teaching certificate, there's no way in hell I'd do it under the current system.

    At least in her classes, the students were apathetic and disrespectful. In her assessment, basically zero learning occurred.

    Contrast that to what I get when I teach my kids at home. We snuggle up and read a homeschooling book about astronomy, and they actually learn. We pop in a "Magic Schoolbus" DVD rental, and even I learn stuff about human physiology, etc. My 6 year old knows multiplication table up through 7's, and reads at a 3rd-grade level.

    Seeing the heartbreaking gap between what most kids can learn, and what most kids do learn in public school, keeps me from ever wanting to perpetuate that environment. I'm considering working with small groups of kids and possibly even doing some math teaching to home-schooled kids. But public schools - no way. It's mostly a waste.

  15. I Heart Money by Hnice · · Score: 4, Interesting

    I'm a teacher, and I love money, but here's the problem:

    No one gets into this for the money, and no one stays for the money -- not math teachers, anyway. I did something before this that paid twice as much, as many of us do, but then I got bored and decided to try this.

    So the issue is, if people aren't in teaching for the money, why do we suspect that we'll be able to attract more people to teaching with more money?

    Now, there's the reasonable argument that there's some segment of the population that would like to teach, but can't because the pay is so low, but there's two things wrong with this argument:

    1. teachers are never going to make as much as, say, modelers or programmers, and
    2. i have some reason to believe that the sort of people who are just waiting for teaching kids to be really, really profitable might not be the crowd that we want to attract, anyway.

    People get into teaching because they like teaching. People leave teaching because it's annoying a lot of the time. Here's how you attract people, in my personal fake expert opinion:

    1. make it interesting. don't assign people to courses just because they're what's open, and don't make them wait for someone to die to get to try teaching calculus.
    2. give them support, and help them develop. put time into schedules for conferences and bring in real lecturers, provide journals and during the day time to discuss, and fund coursework into anything.
    3. throw out the textbooks. they're all shit (with the exception of harold jacobs).
    4. demand real expertise and professionalism. make math teacher a job that it's hard to get. if i quit tomorrow, i could work anywhere in Maine by next week. this isn't good, rather it tells me that i don't need to be very good -- and if that's true, how good am i, really?

    It's a great job, and you can't fix the shortage with money because things are so bad in terms of available teachers that you're just going to drag the good ones to rich districts and force poor schools to take whoever's left -- and you would be pretty surprised if i were to tell you exactly how bad things are in terms of expertise. The right answer is to make it a job that is attractive in all its aspects, and one that's admirable and challenging. That's all we geeks want, anyway, isn't it? A challenge, and some acknowledgement that we've got giant freaking brains?

    --

    god is just pretend.

  16. Not so fast... by enmane · · Score: 5, Insightful

    This is where the problem lies...

    Being knowledgeable and being a good teacher are 2 completely different things. How do I know?
    Glad you asked,

    I'm a PhD student in Mech. Engineering at a top 10 school working through the NSF GK-12 Fellowship program and putting in 30hrs/week at a local school. Believe me when I tell you that being smart and being a good teacher at that level are 2 completely different things and I've been decorated and distinguished as a TA from our undergrads and the department. Middle/High School is a different ball game ENTIRELY.

    I've learned to keep my mouth shut when it comes to criticizing our educational system - my advise, donate your time to a local school and you'll quickly learn why you love your job so much. It's dang hard work with very little reward other than the smiles on their faces.

    This was after a 3 week (50hr/week) summer intensive course on education - there are education theories out there that make a lot of sense and work. You wouldn't know this because the vast majority of my teachers haven't followed them. There is more to being a good educator then being smart in your field - it requires being knowledgeable in the theories of education also.

    That said, I find that the teachers at my school to be extremely petty (maybe it's a catfighting thing) but the politics are horrible and the acknowledgements are nonexistent.

    What have I learned? I love my field ;-)