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RFID Passports Cloned Without Opening the Package

Jeremy writes to tell us that using some simple deduction, a security consultant discovered how to clone a passport as it's being mailed to its recipient, without ever opening the package. "But the key in this first generation of biometric passport is relatively easy to identify/crack. It is not random, but consists of passport number, the passport holder's date of birth and the passport expiry date. The Mail found it relatively easy to identify the holder's date of birth, while the expiry date is 10 years from the issue date, which for a newly-delivered passport would clearly fall within a few days. The passport number consists of a number of predictable elements, including an identifier for the issuing office, so effectively a significant part of the key can be reconstructed from the envelope and its address label."

168 comments

  1. Ohhh by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Funny

    10 seconds in the microwave sounds about right!

    1. Re:Ohhh by mdm-adph · · Score: 3, Funny

      I've heard smashing it with a hammer works just as well, and it doesn't invalidate the passport. Someone correct me if I'm wrong about this!

      --
      It is by my will alone my thoughts acquire motion; it is by the juice of the coffee bean that the thoughts acquire speed
    2. Re:Ohhh by kpainter · · Score: 2

      That sounds like an excellent idea to me, seriously. I wonder what the effect of doing that would be on the user though?

    3. Re:Ohhh by db32 · · Score: 3, Funny

      Temporal hammer? You would have to smash it before you get it.

      --
      The only change I can believe in is what I find in my couch cushions.
    4. Re:Ohhh by Sunburnt · · Score: 3, Informative

      Not sure about the effects on a UK passport holder, but you can still use a U.S. passport if the RFID is disabled. The only advantage of having one seems to be shorter lines at Immigration. (Which isn't true yet, at least at LAX as of two weeks ago. They're probably waiting for more people to get the new passports before they set up the equipment.)

      --
      Tags != Comments, and -1 (Troll) != -1 (I Would Respond Angrily To This Poster So They Must Be Trolling)
    5. Re:Ohhh by misterhypno · · Score: 5, Insightful

      It doesn't matter if YOU disable the chip, because it can be cloned BEFORE THE OWNER EVER GETS THE FRENORKING THING!!

      If you read the article, the cloning took place while it was IN TRANSIT TO the intended receipient - which means that ANYONE getting a Passport through the mail could have their Passport cloned BEFORE they ever GET it.

      Without the package that the Passport is shipped in EVER BEING OPENED!

      Try reading for content next time.

      So, even if you disable the RFID after you GET it, the thing has been compromised BEFORE you ever get your hands ON it!

      RFID = Real Fast Identity Destruction... courtesy of Homeland Security and the rest of the paranoids who don't understand technology up on the Hill who probably think that RFID is "totally tubular, man! Like the internets!"

      And I will bet long odds that this post gets me audited - again - too.

    6. Re:Ohhh by NerveGas · · Score: 1

      My suspicion is that you don't necessarily get the shorter line with the RFID, but that you will get a MUCH longer line if your RFID doesn't work...

      That's based on a trip back east a few years ago where the travel agent booked the tickets with my wife's maiden, not married name. She was able to get the tickets by producing various documents, but each time through security, we would be told "No, the two of you step over here, please." Let's just say that it was a good thing that we arrived early. :-(

      --
      Oh, you're not stuck, you're just unable to let go of the onion rings.
    7. Re:Ohhh by vrwarp · · Score: 1

      Well... they can always just shield the passport before sending it?

      --
      --vrwarp
    8. Re:Ohhh by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      10 is way too much. I fried everything but the screen in a notebook in 5 sec when I was (unsuccessfuly) comitting warranty fraud.

    9. Re:Ohhh by Clazzy · · Score: 5, Funny

      I can see it now, get an RFID-enabled passport and get a tin foil hat for free!

      --
      If we can hit that bull's-eye, the rest of the dominoes will fall like a house of cards... Checkmate.
    10. Re:Ohhh by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      has anyone confirmed what happens if your RFID check fails? I have to get a new passport soon and am planning on microwaving it, but it would suck if that means I get strip searched by US customs whenever I travel. Also, how long should it be microwaved for to disable the RFID without sparking a far or anything?

    11. Re:Ohhh by Lurker187 · · Score: 1

      The cover supposedly has some shielding, but apparently not enough to foil a high-gain antenna, as I suspected. I'm ordering a Faraday wallet for my daughter's passport.

      Unrelated but interesting: my wife sent in her renewal at the same time we applied for my daughter's first passport, in Nov. 2006, and the renewal arrived sooner but without an RFID chip, only the new passport had one, although they both should have been manufactured at the same time, so you would think using the same methods and materials. My WASG is: certain offices/facilities handle new orders, and others handle renewals.

      --
      [command INSERTWITTYQUIP failed: insufficient wit]
    12. Re:Ohhh by Sunburnt · · Score: 1
      Not sure all the SHOUTING is necessary, but I was replying specifically to a question about what the effect would be of going through immigration without working RFID. I wasn't referring to the potential of compromise at all, in fact.

      Try reading for content next time.
      Good advice for you to follow.
      --
      Tags != Comments, and -1 (Troll) != -1 (I Would Respond Angrily To This Poster So They Must Be Trolling)
    13. Re:Ohhh by Sunburnt · · Score: 1

      My WASG is: certain offices/facilities handle new orders, and others handle renewals.
      Quite correct, all new orders go through Philly (even though they turn around and send it back to your local office for issue.)
      --
      Tags != Comments, and -1 (Troll) != -1 (I Would Respond Angrily To This Poster So They Must Be Trolling)
    14. Re:Ohhh by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Ha ha ha

    15. Re:Ohhh by thetroll123 · · Score: 1

      >Try reading for content next time.

      You must be new here...

    16. Re:Ohhh by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Your tax dollars (not) at work.

  2. I get it... by Lithdren · · Score: 1, Insightful

    we make it harder for the terrorists to get passports (ha, yeah right) but make it really easy for them to dup them!

    That way, we can insist there are no terrorists, only home grown bad guys, and we can spend a few billion more dollars on less lethal weapons, killing our own citizens in the name of the greater good!

    ????

    Profit!

    1. Re:I get it... by drinkypoo · · Score: 0, Offtopic

      We don't want to kill our own citizens, unless we can make more money selling their organs (hello, China!) than by incarcerating them. Which we can't. It costs us an enormous amount of money to keep someone incarcerated for a year. In fact, prisoners cost us more than students! This is pretty well inexplicable to me. There's no reason it should be so expensive to keep people locked up and fed. Well, there is a reason; the corrections system is padded at every level, and the kickbacks go to the people who make the campaign contributions. Regardless, the point is that it's more cost-effective to incarcerate them, because then you can milk more money out of the taxpayers.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    2. Re:I get it... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

      we make it harder for the terrorists to get passports (ha, yeah right) but make it really easy for them to dup them!

      Uh, don't look now, but all of the 9/11 hijackers *weren't* terrorists until the morning of 9/11.

      This won't change, either. If you're trying to deal a terrorist attack against a target, you're going to use people who have demonstrated their ability to get past security, not known terrorists.

    3. Re:I get it... by AGMW · · Score: 1
      If you're trying to deal a terrorist attack against a target, you're going to use people who have demonstrated their ability to get past security, not known terrorists.

      Also, you are going to want to use proven teams, so only pick the candidates who have been on at least one successful suicide mission.

      --
      Eclectic beats from Leeds, UK
      handmadehands.co.uk
  3. Does anyone remember Press Your Luck? by Aurelfell · · Score: 5, Interesting

    It was the game show with the Whammies that stole your money. As I recall, there was a guy who watched the show long enough that he figured out a pattern that would let him win every time. He played for like three days, and won a crazy amount of money. The show went of the air, but I remember reading that the programmers who created the game board offered to make it 'true random' for another $600, and the network refused to pay it.

    This article reminds me of that story.

    1. Re:Does anyone remember Press Your Luck? by rufey · · Score: 5, Informative
      Yes, this really did happen on Press Your Luck. The contestant was Michael Larson. He had spent quite a bit of time before appearing on the show analyzing how the different squares on the board flashed and in what sequence. He managed to win over $100,000 USD on the show.

      More can be found at Snopes and at Wikipedia.

    2. Re:Does anyone remember Press Your Luck? by GizmoToy · · Score: 1

      I'd never heard of that story before. I looked it up, and it turns out it was pretty interesting. I used to watch that show long ago.

      Thanks for the tip!

    3. Re:Does anyone remember Press Your Luck? by Jordan+Catalano · · Score: 0, Redundant
    4. Re:Does anyone remember Press Your Luck? by BarryJacobsen · · Score: 2, Informative

      Off the topic of TFA, more info relating to Michael Larson (the PYL contestant mentioned in the post above) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Press_Your_Luck#Micha el_Larson and http://gscentral.net/larsen.htm

    5. Re:Does anyone remember Press Your Luck? by joemawlma · · Score: 1

      Anyone want to watch Michael Larson on Press Your Luck?

      http://youtube.com/watch?v=xAHD_CIysFw
      http://youtube.com/watch?v=TtNy-nuae10

    6. Re:Does anyone remember Press Your Luck? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Golly, that's a tragic tale. Seems he was indeed the kind of fellow to press his luck.

  4. Packaging by Radon360 · · Score: 2, Insightful

    I guess they should have considered mailing them inside a sealed aluminum foil pouch inside the envelope. Not that something like that would stop all of the other vulnerabilities, however.

    1. Re:Packaging by VorpalRodent · · Score: 2, Insightful
      In every article we've seen on this, there is always the discussion of the government's position of "no one can read it if it's closed". What happened to that? I don't recall my passport arriving opened inside the pouch.

      This implies, at least to me, that there is no security whatsoever protecting it from being read, closed or open. Are we to believe that this is seriously the best that they could come up with?

      --
      Take it to the limit, everybody to the limit, come on, everybody fhqwhgads.
    2. Re:Packaging by Billosaur · · Score: 1

      I guess they should have considered mailing them inside a sealed aluminum foil pouch inside the envelope. Not that something like that would stop all of the other vulnerabilities, however.

      Mmmmmmmmm... vacuum-packed for freshness!!

      --
      GetOuttaMySpace - The Anti-Social Network
    3. Re:Packaging by Sunburnt · · Score: 3, Interesting

      In every article we've seen on this, there is always the discussion of the government's position of "no one can read it if it's closed". What happened to that? I don't recall my passport arriving opened inside the pouch.
      Mine did, actually, but the article is referring to the U.K. passports. Different kind of RFID on the U.S. models, and the cover is definitely a different (and thicker) material than the older passports.
      --
      Tags != Comments, and -1 (Troll) != -1 (I Would Respond Angrily To This Poster So They Must Be Trolling)
    4. Re:Packaging by smaddox · · Score: 1

      I agree... I think the idea was to put a wire mesh in the covers so that no communication can be made with the RFID without opening the cover. I'm not sure how effective this would be, since its not a perfectly closed surface. It would definitely weaken the signal, but they all the hacker has to do is increase his signal enough to where he can actually read the return signal.

      Then again, I don't really know anything about RFID. This is just going on my knowledge of electro-magnetics.

    5. Re:Packaging by Ayal.Rosenthal · · Score: 1

      While a good idea, it assumes that the government will implement practical, efficient solutions as temporary measures until they can get their act together. Its ideal, just not likely. - Ayal Rosenthal

      --
      Social liberal, fiscal conservative, always sarcastic.
    6. Re:Packaging by Archon-X · · Score: 1

      Would that make passports get that new hardware smell?
      I'd be hooked.

    7. Re:Packaging by dgatwood · · Score: 1

      Are we to believe that this is seriously the best that they could come up with?

      Sadly, it probably is.

      You see, there's a little problem of the laws of physics. A passive RFID package, AFAIK, typically produces output proportional to the input signal. As a result, to get a hotter output, you just need to provide a hotter input. Up to the limit of the chip, then, you can get around any thickness of shielding simply by increasing both transmitter and receiver gain. I suspect you'll find that it would be a very, very heavy passport if it were thick enough to do any good.

      There's also the rather fundamental problem that no amount of shielding will protect against EM if it can simply bypass the shield. You don't have a Faraday gave in a passport. You have two slabs and maybe a thinner shield on the folding part. That means you have three completely unprotected edges by the very nature of a passport. While the metal in the passport might protect against random cloning in your pocket with a moderately high probability, it will do nothing if the attacker has physical access to the passport even if the attacker does not have the ability to open the passport (e.g. inside a package). Just aim at the edge of the passport instead of the face. Duh. Even better, if you are at the right angle, the two planes act as a freaking wave guide, making it even EASIER to communicate with the device!

      The real problem is that the people responsible for implementing this are simply not sufficiently lknowledgeable about the technology to understand that what they want to do cannot be done. I'm not saying that I am, mind you---RFID is by no means my area of expertise---but even I know enough to know that they don't know enough.

      The way I see it, if you really want to prevent anyone from reading it without the owner's knowledge, you have two possibilities: A. active RFID with a button in which the device doesn't communicate unless the button has been pressed in the last five seconds, or B. a solid block of metal with an indention in the middle for the tag, and a second solid metal plate on top of it. That way, there's not as much of an edge leakage problem. Oh, and the surfaces must be electrically in contact with one another while the passport is closed. Otherwise, they don't really do much. Either way, the passport would have to get a lot thicker....

      --

      Check out my sci-fi/humor trilogy at PatriotsBooks.

    8. Re:Packaging by advocate_one · · Score: 1

      Which is precisely why I've put a sheet of copper mesh in my passport at the page where the little RFID beastie lives... bastards... never ever consider the possibility that the thing could be read in transit... I did consider accidentally on purpose squishing the little black blob with a pair of pliers so it would break... but... that would only case me more hassle than it's worth...

      apparently mine was "securely" delivered... but I got home to find it inside on the doormat... the postie had just slipped it through the letterbox. I have no idea what he did for the signature he was supposed to get... prolly forged it.

      --
      Donald 'Duck' Dunn: We had a band powerful enough to turn goat piss into gasoline.
    9. Re:Packaging by Original+Replica · · Score: 1

      Why can't they just toss in other "random" RFID chips in the packaging or tape a throw away on to the inside of the passport? RFID scrambling. Is it possible to discriminate between multiple signals originating from less than a mm apart?

      --
      We are all just people.
    10. Re:Packaging by PAjamian · · Score: 1

      It should be effective if the openings in the mesh are small enough. The size of the mesh openings depends on the frequency that needs to be blocked. I think it has to do with the way that radio waves pass through the air.

      The same thing works for microwaves which is why they use a metal screen with lots of holes in it to block microwaves escaping out through the glass door of your microwave oven. The holes are spaced close enough together and are numerous enough that you can see through them and focus your sight on the food inside, yet they are small enough to not allow the microwaves to pass through.

      --
      Windows is a bonfire, Linux is the sun. Linux only looks smaller if you lack perspective.
    11. Re:Packaging by AGMW · · Score: 1
      This implies, at least to me, that there is no security whatsoever protecting it from being read, closed or open.

      This just seems to open up too many possibilities for the bad guys for my liking! What if you wanted to assassinate someone and you knew they were passing through an airport. You could have a bomb triggered by the target's RFID passing by!

      These Government depts get sold these great new technological systems (see the UK with the whole Road Pricing debarkle, and not forgetting our ID cards, passports, National DB, and NHS DB) by shiney suited salesmen who, technically at least, run rings around them. It all sounds plausible and it all sounds so marvellous that why wouldn't they buy it!

      The funniest thing I read on this recently was a BBC Article which explained that some new secure NHS system was so slow to login that shift leaders would login once, and all the staff would use the same account.

      We need to stop the technically illiterate from being in a position where they get to make technical decisions!

      --
      Eclectic beats from Leeds, UK
      handmadehands.co.uk
    12. Re:Packaging by dgatwood · · Score: 1

      Yes. All multiple tags does is increase the amount of time required to identify all of them. Fifty tags can be handled by many commonly-available readers currently.

      As for scrambling, that would mean that you'd have to have a highly directional reader to read it even if it were open, which would mean that you'd basically have to swipe it past the reader face down. If you have to do that anyway, you might as well use a bar code. A bar code can also store a LOT more data on a single page than a typical RFID tag can store.

      --

      Check out my sci-fi/humor trilogy at PatriotsBooks.

    13. Re:Packaging by (Score.5,+Interestin · · Score: 1

      You could have a bomb triggered by the target's RFID passing by!

      There was actually a company that did exactly that as part of a security assessment of RFID passports (they used a flashbang rather than a full-scale bomb). They found that US passports worked really well as remote bomb detonators. "We're from the government, we're here to help you^H^H^Hthe terrorists".

  5. Same old Daily Mail by goldaryn · · Score: 3, Interesting

    From the Daily Mail article: "More significantly, we had the details which would allow a fraudster, people trafficker or illegal immigrant* to set up a new life in Britain. The criminal could open a bank account, claim state benefits and undertake a myriad financial and legal transactions in someone else's name. "

    So basically, exactly what goes on now, except for the new false sense of security. Great!

    * I knew they'd bring this up

    1. Re:Same old Daily Mail by Werrismys · · Score: 0

      * I knew they'd bring this up"

      And shouldn't they have? Immigration is Britains #1 problem.

      --
      'Once scientists, even the dim-witted social scientists, get muzzled, the Western Civilization is finished.' - oldhack
    2. Re:Same old Daily Mail by drinkypoo · · Score: 5, Insightful

      I knew they'd bring this up

      You know, it's not just governments concerned about illegal immigration. It's residents, too. Illegal immigration does help keep prices low, but it also helps drive down wages by reducing the value of laborers.

      As such, they would be remiss in not mentioning it, as it is of interest to their readership.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    3. Re:Same old Daily Mail by geekoid · · Score: 1

      First off, you need to look at the jobs they do.

      I do know that in the US, there are farms that can not get american laborers at over 10 bucks an hour with benefits.

      It's the type of work someone will do day in and day out when setting up a new life.

      So, that farmer cuold pay more, but they don't have the funds right now, and how much are we willing to buy a potato for?

      Looking at the history of migrant labor, the US was a lot better off when migrant laborers went backa nd forth across the border. It was when it became really difficult to go back did we start to see problems.

      --
      The Kruger Dunning explains most post on /. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect
    4. Re:Same old Daily Mail by Cinnamon+Whirl · · Score: 2, Insightful

      And shouldn't they have? Immigration is Britains #1 problem. +4 insightful for that? He didn't even say "illegal immigration", he said "immigration"! And even then, that wouldn't be insightful: various factors are a play in any social situation, so a one line summary of "Britain's problems" shouldn't cut it.
    5. Re:Same old Daily Mail by drinkypoo · · Score: 4, Insightful

      First off, you need to look at the jobs they do.

      Having grown up in Santa Cruz, which is in a highly agricultural area, and now living in Kelseyville, which is/was the Pear capital of the world (lots of pears coming out and grapes going in these days though) I'm pretty highly aware of the jobs they do.

      I do know that in the US, there are farms that can not get american laborers at over 10 bucks an hour with benefits.

      What? That sentence doesn't really say anything. There are no farms, for example, that could not get American laborers at 30 bucks an hour. That's over 10 bucks an hour. Maybe we could revisit this point?

      It's the type of work someone will do day in and day out when setting up a new life.

      I'm not sure what that has to do with anything. Lots of people in the US need a new life, too.

      So, that farmer cuold pay more, but they don't have the funds right now, and how much are we willing to buy a potato for?

      Well, that's precisely my point. The farmer needs to charge more in order to pay more. As long as some employers are happy to hire illegals, they can charge less, and that makes them more competitive. So their competitors are forced to do the same thing.

      Consequently we have cheap produce... but it's only cheap at the store. The simple fact is that every taxpayer in America is subsidizing that "cheap" food. We're paying for medical care for these immigrants, for example. Their employers work them part-time or they otherwise do not receive benefits. They do not pay taxes, or if they do pay taxes, their income is underreported and they're using someone else's SSN (in fact one used mine one year, but they reported only a few dollars of income so it didn't actually harm me.) There is also a very real issue with Mexican (in particular) gangs, especially in California. This is not a joke, this is not a made-up problem designed to scare people. It's real, and it's here. And it is largely a result of illegal immigration.

      Now, look at the alternative to illegal immigration. If people are here legally then they can afford to report labor code abuses, because they don't just get kicked out of the country when they interface with the law. So this tends to have the result that people who are worked full-time actually get their benefits, and they have health insurance. So now they no longer need to depend on the taxpayer for medical care.

      Of course, it also has the effect that food appears more expensive on the store shelf, or in the produce aisle, et cetera. But in fact the ACTUAL costs may go down overall! I say "may" because let's face it, I am not an economist, and I have not run the numbers. But I'm also not a complete idiot and I'm capable of understanding simple cause and effect.

      What we have created is a system that encourages unemployment. It reduces not only the total number of jobs, but also the number of jobs capable of supporting a family. Wouldn't it be better if food cost a little more, or in some cases even a lot more, and the actual cost were reflected directly at the store shelf?

      Looking at the history of migrant labor, the US was a lot better off when migrant laborers went backa nd forth across the border. It was when it became really difficult to go back did we start to see problems.

      That's not really true. We only see different problems now. One issue is that we the US have constantly sought to degrade the quality of life south of the border in order to protect our pool of ready and willing labor. NAFTA, for example, was simply another way to fuck over the Mexicans. And now that manufacturing is cheaper in other countries, we just take whatever is valuable (even for scrap) and abandon the factories to sit and rust on the polluted ground we left them on, and move our manufacturing, so that Mexico really gets nothing out of it. But long be

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    6. Re:Same old Daily Mail by Rob+the+Bold · · Score: 2, Funny

      And shouldn't they have? Immigration is Britains #1 problem.

      You seem to be forgetting national dental care, the horrible rise of drug abuse, particularly among the working class and the minorities, the removal of troops from Northern Ireland, the parking situation in Benchley, and preventing Liam Gallagher from leaving Oasis.

      --
      I am not a crackpot.
    7. Re:Same old Daily Mail by bogjobber · · Score: 1

      OK, you started out good but you ended up sounding like an ill-informed maniac. There is no way you can attribute the US or NAFTA as degrading the quality of life in Mexico. Absolutely no fucking way. We give billions of dollars in aid to Mexico. Mexico was one of the first countries to undergo the Green Revolution, with major help from the US. This started Mexico's move from an agricultural economy, and allowed them to become a net exporter of food instead of importing. By moving manufacturing into northern Mexico, the quality of life and wages of Mexicans in cities like Monterrey and Tijuana has grown dramatically. We have done this all while taking in the largest immigration in our country's history, caused mostly by mismanagement resulting from incompetence and corruption within the Mexican government.

      Illegal immigration is a serious problem and needs to be addressed, but attributing Mexico's problems to the US is one of the stupidest ideas I've ever heard. You seem to be making the claim that Mexico's political and economic troubles are largely caused by the US, which is certainly not true. What possible advantage do we gain by having tens of millions of mostly poor Mexicans flooding into our country? Do you actually think that our foreign policy is to make Mexico as poor as possible so we can pay someone two dollars an hour less to pick lettuce? That doesn't make any goddamn sense. It's like claiming that because we took advantage of cheap Irish and Chinese labor in the 19th century, the US was responsible for the poverty that caused their emigration in the first place. The two simply do not connect.

      Perhaps you would like to expand on how, exactly, we have lowered the standard of living in Mexico. Historical examples and statistics would be welcome, instead of just rants and hyperbole.

    8. Re:Same old Daily Mail by advocate_one · · Score: 1

      You seem to be forgetting national dental care, the horrible rise of drug abuse, particularly among the working class and the minorities, the removal of troops from Northern Ireland, the parking situation in Benchley, and preventing Liam Gallagher from leaving Oasis.

      I think I was with you until the last item...

      --
      Donald 'Duck' Dunn: We had a band powerful enough to turn goat piss into gasoline.
    9. Re:Same old Daily Mail by walt-sjc · · Score: 1

      The problem we had in Mexico, is that the quality of the resulting products was HORRIBLE. No matter what manufacturers did, they could not get the quality up to minimum standards. So what happened? Manufacturing moved to China, where the quality was much better for less effort.

      But don't get me started on the quality of most all products today - it's just crap. For some reason, all the high quality stuff - tools, appliances, etc. come from Germany. Kudos to German manufacturers who have figured out that some people still care about quality. Boo to all the American companies who have sacrificed their reputation / name with crappy quality cheesy products made in China, eliminating jobs here in America. Boo to all the big-box retailers who think that people only want crappy products. Boo to consumers who put up with that crap and supported this behavior by shopping at Walmart and their ilk while watching all their manufacturing jobs disappear.

    10. Re:Same old Daily Mail by stephanruby · · Score: 1

      They do not pay taxes, or if they do pay taxes, their income is underreported and they're using someone else's SSN (in fact one used mine one year, but they reported only a few dollars of income so it didn't actually harm me.)

      No according the IRS, fourteen million undocumented aliens did pay income taxes last year. They've been paying taxes since the 90s.

      The IRS is/was pragmatic enough to accept, campaign for, and scare undocumented aliens into paying income taxes. Granted, probably many undocumented aliens still don't pay taxes, or under-report their income so that they pay less taxes, but that's more a factor of the nature of their work. I know many people who will pay under the table in the construction/farm industry (or at home) if they can get away with it (whatever the legal status or the citizenship of their employees).

    11. Re:Same old Daily Mail by drinkypoo · · Score: 1

      OK, you started out good but you ended up sounding like an ill-informed maniac. There is no way you can attribute the US or NAFTA as degrading the quality of life in Mexico. Absolutely no fucking way. We give billions of dollars in aid to Mexico.

      And where does that money actually go? The majority of it goes into the pockets of the already-wealthy.

      Mexico was one of the first countries to undergo the Green Revolution, with major help from the US. This started Mexico's move from an agricultural economy, and allowed them to become a net exporter of food instead of importing.

      The so-called Green Revolution is about a system of control, not about feeding people, or making them financially independent. I won't tell you that everything there is true, but check out the wikipedia entry on the green revolution for some salient points.

      Another point is that modern methods of farming actually destroys soil. A lot of people out there have given me shit for that assertion - what, the dirt is still there! And it still feels good between my fingers! But they don't actually understand what soil IS.

      What is soil? 80% organic matter, for one thing. And up to 20% living organic matter! But mass farming techniques destroy this living organic matter and degrade the nonliving stuff. The soil-tilling techniques used also create hardpan, which destroys drainage. Moving to mass farming from small plots eliminates the benefits of living in harmony with nature - I know that's a hippie-ass sounding statement, but bear with me - like natural pest control.

      Destroy the environment that the things which eat the pests depend on, and now you need chemical insecticide. If you're not doing supercropping and planting crops that live in harmony with one another, each fixing a nutrient that another needs, then you're going to need chemical fertilizer, because you can't reasonably provide enough shit to cover fields that span many acres. These chemicals not only kill the organisms in the soil - most of them, anyway - but they also run off and end up in the water supply. This is harmful to all organisms that depend on it, except maybe the plants. It doesn't actually kill all the organisms in the soil, just most of them; this results in reduced diversity in your soil. This is not a good thing. Nature, after all, is a system of checks and balances.

      But wait, it goes on! Ordinarily nature builds up. It almost never builds down. Plants drop whatever they drop, or die seasonally, and that material builds up on top of the soil. This is called mulch. Mulch traps moisture, enriches the soil... and keeps dirt from blowing away. Modern agricultural methods expose the soil to the elements a great deal of the time. When this happens, dirt blows away; that's just one negative result. Another is that the sun bakes the soil, killing still more organisms in it, and producing greater heat. Another issue is that when you uncover the soil and create hardpan and then it rains, the soil washes away into the usual watersheds where it creates anaerobic conditions, affects salinity, and in general kills things. Then it washes into the ocean, where it does more of the same, killing more things.

      Interestingly, indigenous peoples with a very simple way of life typically have far more leisure time than you, or I, or these mass-farming Mexicans.

      By moving manufacturing into northern Mexico, the quality of life and wages of Mexicans in cities like Monterrey and Tijuana has grown dramatically.

      Having been outside the tourist areas of Tijuana I can tell you that life is marching on much the same as it always has been. People are living in shacks made of anything they can find, and eating much the same (although with less plywood content.) The Maquiladoras have done very little to improve the quality of life for most people and have brought with them

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    12. Re:Same old Daily Mail by drinkypoo · · Score: 1

      No according the IRS, fourteen million undocumented aliens did pay income taxes last year. They've been paying taxes since the 90s. The IRS is/was pragmatic enough to accept, campaign for, and scare undocumented aliens into paying income taxes.

      No. The IRS is/was pragmatic enough to scare the farming companies into reporting some of that income so that it can be taxed. That's where the real impetus comes from. "Pay their taxes, or we'll take away your business."

      Granted, probably many undocumented aliens still don't pay taxes, or under-report their income so that they pay less taxes, but that's more a factor of the nature of their work.

      And a factor for which you and I foot the bill.

      The taxes on the wages they are paid probably don't even come CLOSE to paying for the social services cost of illegal immigration... but I don't have any hard numbers, so I have to content myself with a "probably" for now.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    13. Re:Same old Daily Mail by drinkypoo · · Score: 2, Interesting

      For some reason, all the high quality stuff - tools, appliances, etc. come from Germany.

      My dad makes the assertion that at least in cars, the germans believe that good components make a good car, whereas the japanese believe that it's good system design that makes the difference. These days, though, both BMWs and Mercedes are big pieces of shit, and VW actually makes a more reliable car. So obviously things are a-movin' and a-shakin' over there.

      The Germans DO seem to make the best tools around, though, still. And they make great kitchen appliances :)

      Boo to all the American companies who have sacrificed their reputation / name with crappy quality cheesy products made in China, eliminating jobs here in America.

      Well, they would have made crap here in America, too. It would just have been more expensive crap.

      Boo to all the big-box retailers who think that people only want crappy products. Boo to consumers who put up with that crap and supported this behavior by shopping at Walmart and their ilk while watching all their manufacturing jobs disappear.

      Well, this is where I have to part company with you, more about the former than the latter. The big-box retailers don't just think that, they know it, because people buy the cheap crap over the well-made product in almost every situation. A lot of that is that your warranty doesn't mean shit, so you might as well buy some shit. Most consumer electronics these days have what, a 90 day warranty? Wal-Mart will give me that! So why spend $500 for the good shit when I can spend $100 and get the same warranty?

      Since the retailers know it, the manufacturers know it too, and they focus on making cheap crap.

      As for the consumers shopping at wal-mart, I think the real problem is one of overconsumption. The government wants us all to consume, because it's good for the economy. Problem is, it's not good for us, and when we're all fucked, so will the economy be. Or vice versa - did you know the US dollar and Canadian dollar have reached parity? That is some scary shit if you live in the USA.

      But anyway, without overconsumption we would have more money to spend carefully on our purchases, but you can go out any day of the week and see people below the US poverty line pushing their baby in a $300 stroller. The baby is wearing $100 sneakers. They get into a new car which they'll be making payments on long after the car is a pile of shit...

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    14. Re:Same old Daily Mail by bogjobber · · Score: 1

      Sorry for being an asshole in advance, but I don't think you addressed my points. Once again, rants and hyperbole. You provide no evidence either through statistics or historical example of how Mexico is worse off because of the United States. Since the passage of NAFTA (which you attacked) per capita income across Mexico has jumped dramatically. Poverty has decreased. Life expectancy has increased. The number of people employed, especially in northern areas around Monterrey and Tijuana, has also increased dramatically. People have more jobs and are making more money. This doesn't mean that there isn't poverty in those areas (especially border towns such as Tijuana and Ciudad Juarez) but it has gotten better.

      It's pretty obvious that we disagree fundamentally on some issues surrounding farming. Organic farming is great if you can afford it, but when people are starving it's a pretty tough sell. I think it's great that people actually have food to eat and can do something else besides subsistence farming. Because of the increased food production in Mexico, there is nowhere near the level of hunger there was in the 1940's.

      Interestingly, indigenous peoples with a very simple way of life typically have far more leisure time than you, or I, or these mass-farming Mexicans.

      That's just romantic crap. Farming is hard as hell. It's not like subsistence farmers work 5-6 hours a day, then go home and discuss poetry. They work 24 hours a day because if they don't, they starve to death. There's a ridiculous notion out there that life used to be simple and idyllic back when everyone was on a farm. Well, it wasn't. It was hard, it was dirty, and it wasn't glorious. By using modern farming techniques, we allow people to perform more advanced jobs and more easily avoid things like famine.

      The idea of us not having leisure time is also ludicrous. I have plenty of leisure time, and I don't work particularly hard. I also don't have to worry about starving in the next year because the crop didn't come in well. You can live a comfortable life (one person) making $25K a year in most of the country if you give up the obsession on owning lots of cool toys. That's a fairly easy salary to obtain working 40 hours a week (unbelievably easy if you're educated).

  6. The terrorists have won. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I'm a libertarian so now I feel justified in supporting open borders. Having enough money to live in a gated community and owning machine guns is a private matter.

    1. Re:The terrorists have won. by istartedi · · Score: 2, Interesting

      If there are no borders, then there is effectively no government. This is one of my big problems with the Libertarians. Taking away borders would, in theory, lead to anarchy. In practice, any anarchy gives rise to power centers since nature abhors a power vacuum just as much as it abhors a physical vacuum. In the past, this vacuum was filled by feudal systems that coalesced into nation states. In the present, the porosity of borders combined with the mobility and rapid communications of technological society, allows multinational corporations to fill the void. If you support this particular bit of Libertarian ideology, you indirectly support rule by multinational corporations. I know I'll get heated rebuttals on this from Libertarians. The counter-arguments will probably end up sounding a lot like the GPL zealots who argue that their ideal of freedom is more important than having a video driver that works. If we lose control of the borders, we may all end up so poor that we find ourselves dreaming of the day we can afford to buy a PC from WorldMart that runs GNU/Linux at 640 by 480.

      --
      For all intensive purposes, "whom" is no longer a word. That begs the question, "who cares"?
    2. Re:The terrorists have won. by AJWM · · Score: 2, Insightful

      I'm a libertarian so now I feel justified in supporting open borders. Having enough money to live in a gated community and owning machine guns is a private matter.

      You call yourself a libertarian and you can't see the internal inconsistency in that position?

      Sigh, what happened to the good old days when libertarians were people who had read and understood Ayn Rand? Our borders are our gated community, how else keep out people who are opposed to the libertarian ethic? (I.e., who want to take things from us by force or fraud.)

      --
      -- Alastair
    3. Re:The terrorists have won. by Ucklak · · Score: 1

      The only way you end up poor is by giving goods and services away.

      Likewise, there are ideologies that sound attractive in most or all political parties, just not 100% of a particular party.

      --
      if you steal from one source, that is plagiarism, if you steal from many, well, that's just research.
    4. Re:The terrorists have won. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Sigh, what happened to the good old days when libertarians were people who had read and understood Ayn Rand?

      Sorry to burst your bubble, but libertarians are often exactly the people who have read and not understood Ayn Rand. The people who have read and understood her are the ones who are aware that she was an occasionally entertaining novelist, but a distinctly third-rate philosopher.

    5. Re:The terrorists have won. by AK+Marc · · Score: 1

      You call yourself a libertarian and you can't see the internal inconsistency in that position?

      That's the great thing about libertarianism. My liberty becomes your chains. Public education (a non-libertarian item) saves me money by helping give children an education and direction, thus preventing even larger costs in prisons (something libertarians believe in). Thus, by logic, I can claim that, since public education reduces the overall size of the government, free public education is a libertarian goal. Others, with a different perspective, would disagree. The great thing is, there is no right answer. Which choice has the overall less infringement on freedom for all the population? Government funded schools. Which one has the least impact on the middle-class and rich (at least at first)? Stopping public schools. So both are right. That's the great thing about opinions and personal beliefs. They need not be (and rarely are) consistent.

      He puts a gate around his house, but does not believe in national borders being worthy of a fence. Others think that it is within libertarianism to fence off a border. I would say that a border fence is not libertarianism because it forces the fence on everyone. Not to mention, your argument for it supposed that there are more more people willing to take things by force or fraud that are outside our borders than within.

      Sigh, what happened to the good old days when libertarians were people who had read and understood Ayn Rand?

      That is one and only one way of looking at it. There are many more. That you like that one best doesn't make it any more right. There are many arguments over where my nose starts when what you do doesn't directly cause the touch. What about when you are swinging a fan with the purpose of making me cold. You are affecting the air that makes me cold. It is you swinging your fan without hitting me, but it does make my nose cold.

      Where the line is drawn is a huge variable, even if you think that libertarianism is the right answer.

    6. Re:The terrorists have won. by bogjobber · · Score: 1

      If libertarians these days can't even understand Ayn Rand, then I'm sure as hell glad very few have won elected office. A libertarian that can't grok Ayn Rand is like a green that struggles with Bambi.

    7. Re:The terrorists have won. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You are my hero. I had a Philosophy professor that thought she was amazing. He and I never did see eye-to-eye on anything...

    8. Re:The terrorists have won. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That's the most ridiculous thing I've ever read on Slashdot. Freedom doesn't mean you can't have consumer electronics. Save the disinformation for somewhere else.

    9. Re:The terrorists have won. by AJWM · · Score: 1

      A true libertarian -- vs an anarchist -- knows that government does have some legitimate functions, national defense being prime amongst them. Secure borders are an aspect of national defense, and a fence is a hell of a lot cheaper than armed guards every dozen yards or so.

      Too many self-styled libertarians seem to think that the term implies no government at all -- and then fawn worshipfully at the foot of corporations who decry "government interference". The fact is, without government, there would be no corporations.

      Not to mention, your argument for it supposed that there are more more people willing to take things by force or fraud that are outside our borders than within.

      Not at all, the number within are irrelevant to the fence; that's a situation to be solved by different means. Letting more in, even if the number is fewer than are already here, is a net loss of liberty. The fence should in no way constrain anyone from leaving, or from returning if they're from here and/or can demonstrate peaceable intentions, so it doesn't infringe the liberty of anyone within it.

      Thus, by logic, I can claim that, since public education reduces the overall size of the government, free public education is a libertarian goal.

      Only if you can raise money for that public education without taking it by force or threat of force (or fraud), ie compulsory taxes. Many people would willingly contribute to paying for that, so yes, that might well be a goal of some libertarians. Doesn't make it a libertarian goal, though.

      Where the line is drawn is a huge variable,

      And this is what I mean by not undestanding Ayn Rand.

      --
      -- Alastair
    10. Re:The terrorists have won. by AJWM · · Score: 1

      And cowards are often people who insult absent third parties and believe that somehow proves something about themselves. It does, but not what they think.

      --
      -- Alastair
    11. Re:The terrorists have won. by AK+Marc · · Score: 1

      Secure borders are an aspect of national defense, and a fence is a hell of a lot cheaper than armed guards every dozen yards or so.

      Secure borders are against military threats, not people you don't like. A fence will stop no military force. A fence is for closed borders. Isolationism can come with libertarianism, conservatism, or liberalism. Closed borders are about isolation, not security.

      And this is what I mean by not undestanding Ayn Rand.

      And what if someone understands and disagrees, but still considers themselves libertarian? The word isn't trademarked, and you can't just claim everyone else is using it wrongly because you don't like it. Since you claim so many people do not understand it but use it anyway, then it seems that the definition has changed, and you are the one using the word incorrectly. Language changes. It is defined by the current meanings, not what it initially meant. If you are the only one using a particular old definition of a word, that doesn't make you better, that makes you wrong.

    12. Re:The terrorists have won. by AJWM · · Score: 1

      Since you claim so many people do not understand it but use it anyway, then it seems that the definition has changed, and you are the one using the word incorrectly. Language changes. It is defined by the current meanings, not what it initially meant. If you are the only one using a particular old definition of a word, that doesn't make you better, that makes you wrong.

      I don't know what your politics are, but you certainly argue like a left-winger.

      I guess it shouldn't surprise me that the left wing is out to hijack the term "libertarian", they already did that with "liberal". That's always been a tactic on that side: since they can't win with reasoned, rational arguments (because they are not rational), they hijack the language and redefine the terms in an attempt to, if they can't win the argument, at least confuse the onlookers.

      --
      -- Alastair
    13. Re:The terrorists have won. by AK+Marc · · Score: 1

      I guess it shouldn't surprise me that the left wing is out to hijack the term "libertarian", they already did that with "liberal".

      Liberal was perverted by the Republicans to become an insult. It was a political move by a political party.

      That's always been a tactic on that side: since they can't win with reasoned, rational arguments (because they are not rational), they hijack the language and redefine the terms in an attempt to, if they can't win the argument, at least confuse the onlookers.

      1.One who advocates maximizing individual rights and minimizing the role of the state.
      2.One who believes in free will.

      If you have a different definition, please post it. "You don't understand and I'm not going to explain it" is the tactic of the people that are changing the meaning of the words, not the ones that are trying to use its original meaning.

      Oh, and I use "liberal" to mean someone who advocates change and "conservative" as someone resistant to change. No amount of whining by either party has changed the dictionary definition or the definitions as I use them.

    14. Re:The terrorists have won. by AJWM · · Score: 1

      Liberal was perverted by the Republicans to become an insult.

      No, "liberal" was perverted by the left wing long before. The Republicans couldn't have used it as an insult if they hadn't. Look at the self-named Liberal parties in other countries, Canada for example.

      1.One who advocates maximizing individual rights and minimizing the role of the state.

      That could as easily label anarchists. At one time it applied to Republicans (of the Reagan or Gingrich variety, not the current crop).

      2.One who believes in free will.

      Hmm, is there anyone who doesn't? I supposed there are a few die-hard Marxists or Leninist-Stalinists who believe that free will should be subjugated to the needs of the State, but I think they still believe that free will exists.

      --
      -- Alastair
  7. One of the problems with RFID by StewedSquirrel · · Score: 5, Insightful

    One of the primary problems with RFID is that it is "wireless" in nature. It is also designed to be "simplistic" for the simple case of economic savings.

    While it is a great technology for information such as Barcode scanning and inventory tracking, its use in biometrics, identification and access controls is less secure. Transmitting significant and irrevocable information in an RFID pulse is irresponsible.

    Where a barcode is ubiquitous and the concept of "stealing" it is silly, and even where the ID number of a "proxmity card" employee ID badge is easily revocable, information stored on a passport, such as biometrics, permanent identification numbers and the like are not revocable.

    If you have such a passport, it is advisable that you either fry the RFID chip (i am not responsible for the legal issues surrounding it) or you store your passport in a metal safe, where RF cannot pass. There are already bags on the market with an integrated faraday cage, it is not entirely practical to keep your RFID identity perpetually in this bag while traveling (not to mention the headache at the airport screening area with a metal-laced bag).

    In short, this new RFID identity system is one of the most ill-advised and potentially dangerous (vulnerable to easy identity theft) systems in recent history, and is simply ASKING for people to duplicate it, while providing no benefit other than the government control ("papers please") that it demands.

    Stewed

    --
    There are 10 kinds of people in the world. Those who understand binary and those who don't.
    1. Re:One of the problems with RFID by Sandbags · · Score: 4, Interesting

      RFID may be easy to copy or crack, but someone gets that info on their screen and still validates it against the hard copy when entering/exiting using a passport. You don't just wave it and go on... Passport information by itself is not enough to steal someone's identity or bank account. You still need physical proof. This first pass with RFID is simply making data tracking easier. It was not designed to be secure, just difficult to completely copy or forge. A truly secure passport system would have to include fingerprinting, pass codes, facial scanning technology, or some other system to prove the identity of the bearer. Of course, the RFID could not be responsible to pass that information, it would likely merely possess some simply information allowing it to access a secure database system that actually contains the remainder of the data. That data could be on a government server, or even an integrated SIM in the passport itself requiring connection to a proprietary system. 3 point data validation would work, but it would be very expensive. You'd still need hard copy for entering nations that do not yet have the technological capacity to electronically scan passports. One solution I hear proposed was that not only would the passport itself have an RFID tag, but also the person himself embedded under the skin, plus the addition of a fingerprint and 6 digit pin number. All 4 would have to match, be combined, and then be compared to a CRC value stored in an international database. All this would be simply for identity confirmation and nothing more, with the FBI and other similar branches still needing to cross validate your identity to your criminal record or a watch list. Are we really that concerned/paranoid?

      --
      There is no contest in life for which the unprepared have the advantage.
    2. Re:One of the problems with RFID by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I wasn't... but now I am. Embedding something under my skin? No thanks.

    3. Re:One of the problems with RFID by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If you have such a passport...

      What you describe is apparently inadequate, though. If you have such a passport, it was out of trusted hands for some time... and could have been cloned without your even knowing it, before you even got it.

    4. Re:One of the problems with RFID by Jah-Wren+Ryel · · Score: 2, Insightful

      RFID may be easy to copy or crack, but someone gets that info on their screen and still validates it against the hard copy when entering/exiting using a passport. You don't just wave it and go on... Passport information by itself is not enough to steal someone's identity or bank account. You still need physical proof. This first pass with RFID is simply making data tracking easier. It was not designed to be secure, just difficult to completely copy or forge. A truly secure passport system would have to include fingerprinting, pass codes, facial scanning technology, or some other system to prove the identity of the bearer.

      The question is not just, "Is an RFID passport secure authentication?"
      The question is, in the big picture when all costs and all benefits are accounted for, are RFID passports a good value compared to the previous system?

      The ability to clone a passport that is in a sealed envelope is a significant cost compared to the previous system because it opens up a whole class of attacks that did not exist previously. Factor in other costs, like the direct cost of the equipment upgrades and the inevitable over-reliance on the system by the people who check passports, the risk to American Freedom from ever expanding government and corporate databases with semi-public access, and even the ability to remotely detect a passport's presence without decrypting the contents (the RFID equivalent of walking around with a sign on your back that says "I'm an American, kick my ass") and the cost-benefit ratio of RFID passports starts to look really, really poor.

      --
      When information is power, privacy is freedom.
    5. Re:One of the problems with RFID by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Hey "douchebag", you really like to use "quotes" a lot, don't you?

  8. So what? by snark23 · · Score: 0

    Is this really a big deal?

    The issue with RFID passports would be if they could be /forged/... it doesn't matter if they can be duplicated.

    Sure, there's a minor privacy issue if the passport can be read by proximity (how close do you need to be? ten inches?), but really... this is blown out of proportion.

    1. Re:So what? by Arker · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Is this really a big deal?

      Yes.

      The issue with RFID passports would be if they could be forged... it doesn't matter if they can be duplicated.

      A distinction without a difference. An organisation (and it doesn't matter if this is a terrorist group or a run-of-the-mill little mafia type operation) coöpts a few postal employees. Not particularly hard to do. Those employees use a relatively inexpensive piece of equipment to scan the passports that pass through their hands. This is nearly instantaneous, and non-invasive, so good luck noticing that. The passports go right along to their intended recipients with no delay, and no one's the wiser. Yet the organisation now has all the information needed to create forged passports with valid data, which will raise no flags when used and allow their operatives to assume the identity of the citizen. All the supposed security benefits of the plan are gone, in fact, it's worse than old-style passports from a standpoint of security.

      Sure, there's a minor privacy issue if the passport can be read by proximity (how close do you need to be?

      Depends on how good your receiver is. Just because customs will be using an el cheapo setup that needs to be within ten inches to read the signal doesn't mean that no one will be able to construct a better reader. You think that's a *minor* issue? That someone could steal your identity, or detonate a bomb, based on that information without even having to set hands on your passport? Sounds pretty major to me.

      --
      =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
      Friends don't let friends enable ecmascript.
    2. Re:So what? by fractalVisionz · · Score: 1

      Actually, it does matter. The passport readers do not require the passport inspector to actually open up the passport. This allows the fake passport to be "real" with a added RFID device as long as the operator doesn't look inside. And since this is a technology used to speed up transactions through checkpoints, inspectors will not be opening many passports from now on. Thus, it is a huge deal.

      Additionally, a normal reader may only be able to read it from 4 inches or so, but a scoped antenna could potentially extend the distance to a few feet to even a few hundred feet. Be scared about this technology, I am.

      I recently got a new credit card with it, I immediately destroyed the card and chip inside, and requested a new card without the chip, as there have been attacks on this too. Be scared...

    3. Re:So what? by Bill,+Shooter+of+Bul · · Score: 1

      I could be wrong, but I believe some of the information stored on the rfid ( or linked in a database of some kind) chips is biometric. Ie ( finger print information, retinal scan). So you'd have to beat that level of security as well. Not impossible, but not a walk in the park.

      --
      Well.. maybe. Or Maybe not. But Definitely not sort of.
    4. Re:So what? by jimicus · · Score: 2, Insightful

      The issue with RFID passports would be if they could be /forged/... it doesn't matter if they can be duplicated.

      Not true.

      There's a lot to be said for not bothering to forge passports anyway - sooner or later customs at most first-world countries will probably link up, so the passport number can be checked instantly against a database to make sure the details match up. The only way a "forged" passport will work then is if it's not forged at all, but rather made with the collusion of someone at the passport office.

      However, if you can duplicate a passport, you can pretend to be someone else. Someone who (you hope) has no criminal record and is not even vaguely interesting to the authorities. With access to a crooked person in authority, you can confirm this. Without such access, you simply make a few flights and see if you get stopped. The only way I can see around this is if government starts tracking where everyone is, and if the passport handed over at customs belongs to someone you know for a fact was a thousand miles away only ten minutes ago, you know something fishy's going on. But we're a long way from having that level of technology - and while I absolutely hate the sound of it, I wouldn't be even remotely surprised if someone in government is mulling it over right now.

    5. Re:So what? by Kristoph · · Score: 4, Informative

      I cannot believe this was voted insightful.

      A copy of 'biometric' passport information has no value in a security context. If a copy of a passport is created using the biometric information then, obviously, that biometric information will not match the passport holder which will mean he/she will be identified as carrying a forged passport. If the biometrics are changed the digest of the passport information will be invalid and so, again, he/she will be identified as carrying a forged passport.

      This is really only an issue because someone can get your personal information (for use in, for example, financial identity fraud) without having to actually open any of your mail.

      ]{

    6. Re:So what? by Arker · · Score: 1

      The amount of data on these chips is not enough to carry much "biometric" information, and the implementation at the passport checks so far has not, so far as I've seen, include checking that information anyway. So it doesn't matter.

      --
      =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
      Friends don't let friends enable ecmascript.
    7. Re:So what? by Kristoph · · Score: 1

      The whole point of these chips is to carry 'biometric' information. Their called 'biometric passports' for a reason. Anyway, a biometric passport carries, at a minimum, your picture, which will be displayed to the immigration agent, so unless the terrorist/criminal has a make-up job that alone will catch them.

      The EU versions (excluding the UK) carry your fingerprints. The US version has space for additional biometrics so you'll see either fingerprints or retinal scans on those as well in the near future as a 'second stage' check if there is a question about the validity of the passport holder.

      ]{

    8. Re:So what? by Dave2+Wickham · · Score: 1

      I have a UK passport with an RFID. I never (to my knowledge, at least) gave the government a fingerprint or retinal scan. The booklet that came with it also implied that the only thing "biometric" about it is that it has your photo on it.

    9. Re:So what? by Bill,+Shooter+of+Bul · · Score: 1

      Well, I know this old British woman who travels through the USA a couple times a year. Each time she goes through US customs, they take her finger prints and tell her they don't match the ones they have on file. Of course, she's never had her finger prints taken. So they take her back to a room while they talk about it and eventually let her through. The same rigmarole happens every time. So maybe thats just a database on the US side that links her passport with her fingerprints. I don't really know. I just think the whole thing is funny.

      --
      Well.. maybe. Or Maybe not. But Definitely not sort of.
    10. Re:So what? by snark23 · · Score: 1


      That's absurd.

      There's a HUGE distinction between duplication and forgery when it comes to cryptographically signed data.

      Forgery involves fabrication of information: changing names, photographs, birthdates...
      This is computationally infeasible without the government's private key used to sign the information.

  9. Re:Embedded Linux is a major security risk by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    You, sir, are an idiot. It has long been a tradition in the cryptoanalysis community to disclose fully your algorithms. This is because most algorithms fail when tested by outside parties so you want peer review to make sure your algorithm doesn't contain a flaw you missed. And keys are set by the user so they can be anything the user wants and being user generated they are private to the user from the get-go. This combination of user-private keys and publically-tested algorithms is the best we've come up with so far and I highly doubt that you would be able to even scratch a current protocol much-less crack it.

  10. Because It's a Dumb Chip! by mpapet · · Score: 4, Insightful

    I know the average /.'er will be up in arms about how insecure the new passport is but it's simply not one of the design goals.

    The primary goal is to have a document that's harder (it's never impossible) to forge and easier to collect and process entry/exits. That's it. End of story.

    It's not a silver bullet. Treating it as such is demanding something you won't ever get.

    --
    http://www.maxineudall.com/2010/02/should-economists-be-sued-for-malpractice.html
    1. Re:Because It's a Dumb Chip! by WinterSolstice · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Seems like it's actually *harder*, to process and *easier* to forge though, not easier. Or am I the only one that thinks so?

      --
      An operating system should be like a light switch... simple, effective, easy to use, and designed for everyone.
    2. Re:Because It's a Dumb Chip! by EdMack · · Score: 3, Insightful

      You're missing the point. It *is* now easier to forge, since the chip is easily copied without the receiver knowing, and people perceive the chip to be more secure and harder to copy.

      --
      puts ("Python r0cks\n");
    3. Re:Because It's a Dumb Chip! by Ungrounded+Lightning · · Score: 2, Insightful

      The primary goal is to have a document that's harder (it's never impossible) to forge and easier to collect and process entry/exits. That's it. End of story.

      So if you "need" a chip to handle the data, what's wrong with using a CONTACT-read chip like those on credit cards?

      Sticking the passport in a slot is THAT much more inconvenient than waving it over a reader that you have to make the passport subject to drive-by scanning?

      (Just imagine the next generation of "wardrivers". The term might end up being literal.)

      --
      Bantam Dominique roosters crow a four-note song. Once you've heard it as "Happy BIRTHday" you can't NOT hear it that way
    4. Re:Because It's a Dumb Chip! by Kristoph · · Score: 1

      No, I think it is you are missing the point. If you *copy* the chip you will copy the picture / fingerprints of the original owner of the passport. You will thus be immediately caught when attempting to use the passport because the 'biometrics' will not match. If you change the picture or other biometrics the key of the password will no longer be valid and thus it will be identified as a forgery.

      So the fact that someone can copy your the chip is more of a privacy issue then a security issue.

      ]{

    5. Re:Because It's a Dumb Chip! by POPE+Mad+Mitch · · Score: 1

      ironically you have to stick these rfid passports through a slot reader anyway.

      an optical reader decodes the printed values on the bottom edge of your passport in order to construct the key to connect to and decrypt the rfid data.

    6. Re:Because It's a Dumb Chip! by orielbean · · Score: 1

      No, it is easier now. Before I had to pickpocket your passport, copy the info, and then slip it back to you without you knowing it was compromised. Now I buy the sniffer, goto the airport bar, and I can copy 200 passports in one day's work.

      Easier.

    7. Re:Because It's a Dumb Chip! by AK+Marc · · Score: 1

      It's harder to forge. In addition to having to physically forge the passport, as always, they must also forge the RFID. That may be trivially harder, but it is still harder. You can't just scan an RFID, take it to your passport printer and print out a perfect forgery. Reading the RFID adds complexity, not reduces it. The RFID doesn't have all the information necessary to make a valid forgery. Thus, it is not useful to take just the reading and forge something from it. You must still have physical access, as before (and as the article claims is necessary for their tactic). In addition to physical access, you also need RFID gear. So, tell me again how this makes it easier to forge?

  11. What about US passports? by Sunburnt · · Score: 4, Interesting

    I received one of the new U.S. Passports - the day I handed in my application happened to be the first day of the change, and I had my order expedited, so I have one of the first new passports.

    There's no "chip:" the electronic storage is embedded in the photo page of the passport, among a series of wires covered with laminate. The Department of State says the cover of the new passports prevents RFID scanning when closed, which probably explains why the cover is a different thickness and flexibility than the previous passports.

    Funny thing, though: the passport itself was opened flat in the shipping envelope from the passport center. So, presumably, it could be read. I wonder what sort of security the USDoS is using on these things?

    The article has nothing to do with U.S. passports, since the Brits are using a different RFID mechanism. So, no help there. I wonder how many people read the article summary (which fails to mention this detail - it probably should, since this is a rather U.S.-centric website) without RTFA and are busy microwaving their new U.S. passports?

    --
    Tags != Comments, and -1 (Troll) != -1 (I Would Respond Angrily To This Poster So They Must Be Trolling)
    1. Re:What about US passports? by Arker · · Score: 1

      IIRC the British and US passports are using essentially the same mechanism, so as to be compatible with each others readers. The US passports added the cover-shield, which is of dubious value as you note, but other than that I think they'll have the same vulnerability. Could be wrong though.

      --
      =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
      Friends don't let friends enable ecmascript.
    2. Re:What about US passports? by drinkypoo · · Score: 1

      USDoS

      What are you talking about? Every department of the US government is about denial of service. They deny you service at every step.

      But seriously, I'm sure they ship them flat specifically so that they CAN read them. Exactly why they would want to do this is anyone's guess.

      I'd say that so long as they don't have the same weak-key problem (or similar) as UK passports, who cares? The issue isn't reading my passport when it's in the mail. The issue is reading my passport when it's on me, and knowing things about me that you can use for pretexting etc.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    3. Re:What about US passports? by Prophet+of+Nixon · · Score: 1

      When was this? I got a new passport mailed about two weeks ago, and now I'm curious if mine has that (I would check, but its at home... I glanced at it and put it back in the envelope for now).

    4. Re:What about US passports? by drew · · Score: 1

      FWIW, my wife got her new passport a week or two ago, and as far as I can tell it's not one of the RFID ones.

      --
      If I don't put anything here, will anyone recognize me anymore?
    5. Re:What about US passports? by Sunburnt · · Score: 1

      They made the change sometime in January. Easy to tell; there's a little gold symbol under the words, "of America" on the front cover that looks like a box with a circle in the middle.

      --
      Tags != Comments, and -1 (Troll) != -1 (I Would Respond Angrily To This Poster So They Must Be Trolling)
    6. Re:What about US passports? by Sunburnt · · Score: 1

      But seriously, I'm sure they ship them flat specifically so that they CAN read them.
      It was stiff enough that it appeared to have never been closed. I think this is innocuous: there's no way to distinguish passports when they're closed, and they certainly don't want to send them to the wrong person, so this is probably to facilitate sorting. There's certainly no reason for the government to scan them as they travel through the mail; they already know you have a passport, and they're already tracking the package via the USPS tracking system.

      I'd say that so long as they don't have the same weak-key problem (or similar) as UK passports, who cares? The issue isn't reading my passport when it's in the mail. The issue is reading my passport when it's on me, and knowing things about me that you can use for pretexting etc.
      I'm curious about the encryption as well. Any ideas where to find an RFID reader and test this out?
      --
      Tags != Comments, and -1 (Troll) != -1 (I Would Respond Angrily To This Poster So They Must Be Trolling)
    7. Re:What about US passports? by cpt+kangarooski · · Score: 1

      They still seem to have some old blanks, and they're going to use them up. So some of the passport offices are issuing the new kind, and some the old kind, and sooner or later, they'll all be on the new kind. Me, I went out a few months ago and got one of the old kind (even though I virtually never travel) just to be safe.

      --
      -- This and all my posts are in the public domain. I am a lawyer. I am not your lawyer, and this is not legal advice.
  12. Re:Embedded Linux is a major security risk by Lumpy · · Score: 4, Funny

    Wow! I did not know that there were any oblivious morons left in the wild.
    What number is on your ear tag? OH! are you one of the rare untagged morons? Where is my camera! National Geographic is gonna pay for a photo of a untagged wild moron!

    hey, come back! this camera won't steal your soul....... dammit.

    --
    Do not look at laser with remaining good eye.
  13. it's != its by doug141 · · Score: 0, Troll

    it's = "it is"
    its = possessive of "it"

    1. Re:it's != its by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      its = something possessed by eBay

    2. Re:it's != its by istartedi · · Score: 1

      Of course, this depends on what the meaning of "is" is.

      --
      For all intensive purposes, "whom" is no longer a word. That begs the question, "who cares"?
    3. Re:it's != its by toddhisattva · · Score: 1

      This is no troll its a useful message.

  14. Does anyone remember Rainman? by TheRealMindChild · · Score: 0, Offtopic

    It was the movie with the retard that won some money. As I recall, there was a guy who watched cards long enough that he figured out a pattern that would let him win every time. He played for like three days, and won a crazy amount of money. The movie went to DVD, but I remember reading that the dealers who hosted the game offered to make it 'true random' for another $600, and the pit boss refused to pay it. This article reminds me of that story.

    --

    "When life gives you lemons, don't make lemonade. Make life take the lemons back!" -- Cave Johnson
    1. Re:Does anyone remember Rainman? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It was the movie with the retard that won some money

      The parent was describing a real-world event. You're talking about a movie. Ass.

  15. That's no "security researcher"... by OriginalArlen · · Score: 3, Informative

    ...that's Adam Laurie! The godlike genius of Shepherd's Bush! Seriously though... he's something of a geek hero to me. Dunno why (apart from respect for a fellow-survivor of Bush) -- lots of other people write code and do research, but he just seems like such a nice chap with it.

    --

    Everything I needed to know about life, I learnt from Blake's Seven
  16. RFID passports to be abandonded? by mrtexe · · Score: 2, Informative
    Secretary Chertoff, US Department of Homeland Security: RFID passports to be abandonded.

    That said, it looks like some of these passports are out there already. Secondly, I haven't come across a definitive statement or timeline from DHS as to when RFID passpots will be abandonded.

    1. Re:RFID passports to be abandonded? by drinkypoo · · Score: 1

      Secondly, I haven't come across a definitive statement or timeline from DHS as to when RFID passpots will be abandonded.

      Right after all the people they really want to track either a) have one or b) have been tagged with RFID through other means. You can make a passive RFID tag the size of a grain of rice (smaller!) now. You could trivially hide it inside of anything... a key chain, or even a key! With the right design, in fact, you could probably use a key as an antenna.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
  17. RFID is not going to save the world by unPlugged-2.0 · · Score: 4, Informative

    As a software developer in the RFID industry and trying to effectively merge open source and RFID I always hear these kinds of things from our clients, slashdotters, family and random people on the street. RFID is insecure, it's the end of the world, we are all going to be puppets, you wouldn't believe the kind of responses I get during thanksgiving.

    And what I tell everyone is RFID is not the end-all technology to solve every identification need. Also there is no one kind of tag so it is silly to say that RFID in and of itself is insecure.

    The truth is that tags can be secure or they can be cheap but very rarely both. It is impossible to be able to have them both with the current economies of scale. The ones used in the passport are most definitely not the high-end tags with memory and cryptographic capabilities. There are some active tags that can do public/private key validation but they also cost a fortune. The governments are going to go with the cheapest version.

    They know full well it is going to be cracked. It is not a big deal as it is not that hard to steal or copy the current passport anyways so they have not really digressed. This was meant to be a pilot (that somehow went into production) to check how efficient it could be and also serve as a vehicle for making further enhancements and putting more data.

    As other slashdotters have pointed out it is still impossible to actually modify the information on the tags. When this is possible then that is really newsworthy because now people can actually change other people's information and wreak havoc.

    But until then there are far easier and cheaper ways to find out someone's Social Security and date of birth on the web.

    1. Re:RFID is not going to save the world by drinkypoo · · Score: 2, Interesting

      As a software developer in the RFID industry and trying to effectively merge open source and RFID I always hear these kinds of things from our clients, slashdotters, family and random people on the street. RFID is insecure, it's the end of the world, we are all going to be puppets, you wouldn't believe the kind of responses I get during thanksgiving. And what I tell everyone is RFID is not the end-all technology to solve every identification need. Also there is no one kind of tag so it is silly to say that RFID in and of itself is insecure.

      RFID in and of itself causes security problems outside the realm of whether RFID is secure or not.

      It is a simple fact that RFID tags are going in everything. Sooner or later they will be as ubiquitous as UPC codes.

      It is also a fact that RFID tags can be read at a distance with off the shelf hardware.

      It is ALSO a fast that even more RFID tags can be read at a distance with custom hardware.

      It is also a fact that RFID tags are going into the soles of shoes and into tires, both cases in which the tag will be very easily readable because it will be both parallel and close to a flat surface that can easily have an antenna embedded within it.

      It's easy enough to stop people from reading your passport. Put it in a metal case, or even a mylar bag (although the latter may not be proof against it, while the former is pretty damned good.) But what we NEED to be able to stop is to stop the government from tracking where each and every person is during their every waking hour. RFID tags are smaller than grains of rice now. They can trivially be secreted in your clothing. In fact you could disguise them as little bits of grit! No one is going to be surprised at some grit in their pants cuff.

      I think it's quite reasonable to be paranoid about RFID in a world of continual surveillance and when no government has respect for your rights.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    2. Re:RFID is not going to save the world by unPlugged-2.0 · · Score: 1

      Those are some good points but methinks you should should go a little light on the X-Files reruns. Just kidding, pardon my dry humor and I love X-Files too before they got all wacky.

      The bottom line is that RFID is not any more secure or any less secure than what you currently have. Do you have a credit card? A bank card? Then you are have already been violated.

      The RFID used in credit cards and passports are HF (13.56 mhz). The range on these tags is incredibly small. Even with the best equipment you cannot read farther than 6 - 12 inches. You can build a fancy contraption with a huge antenna and power co-efficient but you will probably cause a lot of damage to other components before you are going to increase that range not to mention looking like a walking weather station.

      Also HF is notoriously bad at high speed so it is going to be hard for anyone to track your tires much less to hide an antenna in the ground they are quite fragile too. Also the readers themselves require power, circuitry, and ethernet/wireless conection etc etc blah blah. You can see my point.

      The point is that there are far easier ways to steal information. Take for instance myself. I know quite a bit about RFID, I can get acess to the best RFID equipment but even with all that if I wanted to steal your information I would much rather hold you up (or hire someone else to do it) than to devise an elaborate plot where I would have to monitor your habits and then set up readers in your path so that I can get your information.

      Also now that I know you are going to be armed with tin-foil I guess I pretty much have no other choice than to stick you up.

      Now, Hands UP and hand over your wallet!!!

      All your Id's are belong to us....

    3. Re:RFID is not going to save the world by drinkypoo · · Score: 2, Interesting

      The bottom line is that RFID is not any more secure or any less secure than what you currently have. Do you have a credit card? A bank card? Then you are have already been violated.

      No card in my wallet is remotely readable, at least to the best of my knowledge. You missed the point entirely.

      The RFID used in credit cards and passports are HF (13.56 mhz). The range on these tags is incredibly small. Even with the best equipment you cannot read farther than 6 - 12 inches. You can build a fancy contraption with a huge antenna and power co-efficient but you will probably cause a lot of damage to other components before you are going to increase that range not to mention looking like a walking weather station.

      All that is required is more gain on the receiving side, which in turn requires intelligent filtering and design to have a useful SnR to begin with. Anyway here is an article about a company with a solution currently in the field for reading HF tags at ranges up to ten meters.

      Also, 6-12 inches is enough if you can get people walking through doorways, or walking up and pressing a button on a traffic light, et cetera. You can always also just bump into them and then you can get absolute proximity.

      Also HF is notoriously bad at high speed so it is going to be hard for anyone to track your tires much less to hide an antenna in the ground they are quite fragile too. Also the readers themselves require power, circuitry, and ethernet/wireless conection etc etc blah blah. You can see my point.

      Making the antenna durable is a triviality. You can place it into the road surface at the same place as the metal detector used to see if your car has pulled up to a light. Want to know what RFIDs are in the tires of an upcoming car? Just switch the light at the right time to stop them. And if they run the light, now you can drag them into court and look up their ass with a flashlight.

      I suspect in fact that sooner or later they will devise the technology to use the same loop antenna used to detect your car to read RFID.

      The point is that there are far easier ways to steal information. Take for instance myself. I know quite a bit about RFID, I can get acess to the best RFID equipment but even with all that if I wanted to steal your information I would much rather hold you up (or hire someone else to do it) than to devise an elaborate plot where I would have to monitor your habits and then set up readers in your path so that I can get your information.

      It's not about stealing information via RFID. Get that idea out of your head right now. It's about uniquely identifying people by their RFID tag constellation, and being able to track them. It's one more piece in the "ubiquitous surveillance" puzzle. Just as RFID can't save the world, it can't doom it, either. It's part of the problem.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    4. Re:RFID is not going to save the world by unPlugged-2.0 · · Score: 1

      I guess we can agree to disagree :)

      I think the government has much more information on you anyways than you would think they do with an RFID card. The RFID tag is just another identification marker. It is slightly more secure, more convenient than Barcodes and that is all. Yes it can be read at a range and sometimes you may not know they are being read but the costs and effort to do that is astronomical. Wireless also is easy to track. There are gps, cell phones and a host of other markers as well.

      One thing we do agree on is that RFID is not going to save or doom the world. We will work from there. I think the RFID puzzle is just too hyped. It is a good identification solution, not terribly secure but efficient and has the ability to be mass produced for good economical value. There will invariably be mistakes made in its application just like mistakes made in the early days of the web with shopping carts, phishing sites, etc. I believe it will work itself out. Call me an optimist but I use the web daily and it is incredibly insecure.

      I simply don't buy the fact that it makes it easier to track or identify bits of you. If you wanted to spend the money then anything can do that. I am more scared of cell phones as they contain a lot more information. Google has more information on you too but that is another topic altogether.

      With technology comes more data and with more data comes the ability for abuse. This is how it has always been. But I wouldn't go back to the middle ages because I could live in obscurity and have my privacy preserved.

    5. Re:RFID is not going to save the world by drinkypoo · · Score: 1

      I think the government has much more information on you anyways than you would think they do with an RFID card.

      Currently, they don't know my whereabouts at every moment. This would give them orders of magnitude more information about my position than they have now. Currently they can find out where I am only by either actually watching me, which involves following me around; or by reviewing my use of my electronic identities like credit cards and the like, which only works at the moment I use them.

      Yes it can be read at a range and sometimes you may not know they are being read but the costs and effort to do that is astronomical.

      We're talking about the government here. When has it ever displayed an unwillingness to spend taxpayer money in order to control and dominate the citizenry?

      Wireless also is easy to track. There are gps, cell phones and a host of other markers as well.

      I can turn off my phone, taking out the battery if I feel that paranoid. GPS is one-way; you could plant a GPS/Cellular tracking system on my car, but at least that requires some action on your part. By contrast, if I walk into wal-mart and buy a packet of peanut M&Ms, two quarts of castrol and a sponge mop, then pay for all that with my credit or debit card, the data is all there to piece together that the person carrying those four RFID tags around with them is going to be me. A very little intelligence, and they can even figure out that the M&Ms may or may not be with me later in my journey. And sooner or later they'll want to put the tags in the money, with the serial numbers on them... and the whole thing gets a lot easier.

      I simply don't buy the fact that it makes it easier to track or identify bits of you.

      You don't have to buy it. It will happen to you and to me both as RFID becomes more ubiquitous, whether you believe in it or not.

      With technology comes more data and with more data comes the ability for abuse. This is how it has always been. But I wouldn't go back to the middle ages because I could live in obscurity and have my privacy preserved.

      Neither would I... but I won't hide my head in the sand and pretend there are no privacy concerns because I don't want to deal with reality, either.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    6. Re:RFID is not going to save the world by knightbg · · Score: 1

      the discussion you two are having has to be one of the few on slashdot of any redeeming value in recent memory. anyhow, i'd like to raise a question and hear your opinion.

      the objection i've had to RFID is that it doesn't require you to physically hand over the information; information can be forcibly taken without consent, and perhaps even without the knowledge that the information is being requested. here's an example.

      my library recently switched from using barcodes to rfid tags in the books. now, the libraries have only just gotten through fighting very hard to say that they will require a subpoena before they will turn over library records. in the nightmare scenario i have been thinking of, the homeland security agents or whoever who wants to know what books i am taking out sets up a long-range rfid scanner outside the door of the library and watches me come through. now, even though they didn't ask anybody at all (not me, not the library, not a court), they can know what books i'm taking out.

      is the situation i'm creating completely bonkers? can rfid not do this? sometimes it's hard to read through the hype.

      anyhow, i suppose one way around this is to pass laws saying that this kind of behavior counts as electronic surveillance and mustn't be conducted without a warrant, but of course that doesn't really seem to stop our government nowadays.

      by the way, i do think there are some great applications for rfid, for example to help the blind identify items they pick up off the shelf. they have barcode readers that do this, but think how much easier it is for a blind person to use an rfid reader than a barcode scanner.

    7. Re:RFID is not going to save the world by unPlugged-2.0 · · Score: 1

      The application for the blind is very interesting. Would the person have an RFID reader near them that voices out the products they are walking by? It is a creative application though it would obviously have to be tried to really know.

      But to answer your question RFID though it does in fact have radio in its nomeclature does not mean that you can simply set up really large antenna's and just read at an unlimited distance. It works by basically bouncing very concentrated radio waves off of a small tag with a small antenna that can basically break up the signal and retransmit it back a 100 times weaker. Those are the UHF tags that are being used in Walmart etc.

      The ones in your library are probably HF tags which work off a magnetic field. That is why it's range is vastly reduced. Even if you could get a really strong magnet the tag and it's ability to respond back to the magnetic signal is still weak so the range will still be small.

      With current technology it would be impossible for anybody to read the information without being extremely close to you. Maybe in a subway type situation it could be possible but again the reader itself is not a micro-sized device so it would have to be carefully hidden.

      The danger is always there and honestly the government could do it but I think that they have far more effective high tech gadgetry to monitor you than RFID. The one that is scary about RFID is that you do have a lot more information being collected by the library, stores etc. The government could tap into the store's data via a subpoena or just plain take it. But this has always been a problem and is even so with google etc.

      As we generate more data you are going to leave more tracks behind. Somebody somewhere is storing this.

    8. Re:RFID is not going to save the world by Alioth · · Score: 1

      Sigh. This whole article has demonstrated that it is LESS secure. Had the passports contained a similar device to my credit card - something which you need to make contact with to read - then the writer of the article would not have been able to read the passport through an unopened envelope in the mail stream. Remote wireless can only reduce security.

      I still can't work out why passports had to be RFID in the first place. What was wrong with a simpler (and probably cheaper!) device with contacts? Certainly not wear - my Switch card gets used practically daily and hasn't worn out. Even a frequent traveller won't have their passport read more than a dozen times per year.

  18. Why would you tag this with haha? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    It's you American's who are going to be using these insecure passports so I wouldn't be "haha'ing" at all.

  19. Re:No No! No! by mpapet · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Here's the how-to on forging a new passport:

    1. Create a falsified passport jacket capable of holding a chip and antenna.
    2. You embed the _right_ chip with the _right_ number encoded (oh yeah, you need to encode the chip) AND the _right_ antenna required for the chip in your garage into the faked passport jacket.
    3. Create secure paper used in passport.
    4. You'll need to work up all of the print security features.

    It's not trivial, it's not a silver bullet it's not a fake ID you used to buy beer in college. Stop expecting more from the new passport than the design requirements fulfill.

    --
    http://www.maxineudall.com/2010/02/should-economists-be-sued-for-malpractice.html
  20. RFID by mypalmike · · Score: 4, Funny

    RFID = Ready For Immediate Duplication?

    --
    There are 0x40000000 types of people: those who understand 32-bit IEEE 754 floating point, and those who don't.
  21. If you want something done right... by mi · · Score: 1

    ... you have to do it yourself.

    If you want something done really wrong (and very expensive) — have the government to do it.

    It boggles the mind, that despite continuous and numerous reports of various government screw-ups, the majority of fellow Slashdotters still seem to favor things like "Municipal WiFi"...

    Oh, yeah, "local government" is supposed to be better than federal... But is it really? Not in my experience...

    --
    In Soviet Washington the swamp drains you.
    1. Re:If you want something done right... by geekoid · · Score: 4, Insightful

      The federal, state and city government do a lot of things right. In fact most of there projects are quite successful. The media shines a light on the problems* so thats all most people here.

      Most agencies are more fiscally responsible then most corporations.

      Go the the ligrary and look at all the projects that get done.

      remember, with a company all you here is the success, with the government all you hear about is the problems.

      90% of all government projects are done on time, 90% of all corporate projects fail.

      *and they should

      --
      The Kruger Dunning explains most post on /. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect
    2. Re:If you want something done right... by maxume · · Score: 1

      I think you got your tubes crossed. Maybe anyway(there was a story about muni wifi on the front page earlier today, but your post seems fairly tangential to this story).

      --
      Nerd rage is the funniest rage.
    3. Re:If you want something done right... by AK+Marc · · Score: 1

      If you want something done really wrong (and very expensive) have the government to do it.

      Social Security is a fund management system that beats all major private funds in overhead costs. Yes, that's right, the private sector is less efficient than the government. There are plenty of other examples, but it only takes one to show you to be completely wrong. But thanks for playing into the government-hating FUD.

    4. Re:If you want something done right... by Cigamit · · Score: 1

      > Remember, with a company all you here is the success

      So how does Sony, Microsoft, and SCO fit in that picture?

    5. Re:If you want something done right... by mi · · Score: 1

      90% of all government projects are done on time, 90% of all corporate projects fail.

      Could I have the source of these statistics, please? Thank you.

      --
      In Soviet Washington the swamp drains you.
    6. Re:If you want something done right... by toddhisattva · · Score: 1

      I think the purpose of local governments is to limit the damage they can do.

    7. Re:If you want something done right... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      90% of all government projects are done on time?!

      You must be referring to the government of Country X, where X = some made up fantasyland in your head where govvies are highly motived even after their first two years on the job, and where all the real work isn't farmed out to greedy contractors who repeatedly push back delivery dates to get their contracts renewed.

    8. Re:If you want something done right... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Most agencies are more fiscally responsible then most corporations.

      How do you figure that?

      Companies (at least in a free market) go out of business if they're fiscally irresponsible. They have competitors who want to put them out of business.

      Government agencies that are fiscally irresponsible ... raise taxes, sometimes. But even when they don't, they continue sucking, because there are no competitors. Their waste hurts all taxpayers.

      90% of all government projects are done on time, 90% of all corporate projects fail.

      That's a rather misleading statistic, at best, since they're playing on completely different fields.

      What does "on time" mean for a government project? At one well-known software company, projects typically run for 3 months. How many government projects take 3 months? Do governments make super-conservative estimates? (They sure have incentive to.) What would it mean for the Iraq War (#2) to be "done on time", when the government refuses to give a timeline for it? Does the 90% figure include projects the government refuses to spec first? Does Iraq count as "one project", despite costing hundreds of billions of dollars?

      Is it bad that 90% of commercial projects fail? Those that fail only suck money from the people who tried to implement them, but failed. The result is that consumers get the winning 10%.

  22. security does not matter by Alien+Being · · Score: 1

    Our federal government doesn't care about security. If we were secure, they would be out a lot of jobs. It all makes sense once you realize how they work.

    Bush's administration isn't the first subversive government we've had, but they are one of the nastiest.

  23. I'm a "Law 'n Order Anarchist" by Ungrounded+Lightning · · Score: 2, Interesting

    I'm a libertarian so now I feel justified in supporting open borders. Having enough money to live in a gated community and owning machine guns is a private matter.

    I, on the other hand, characterize myself as a "Law 'n Order Anarchist" (or "Law 'n Order Minarchist" on even-numbered days). That means I think we should get rid of all (or all but the minimum necessary) of the laws - but believe it must be done in the right ORDER or it makes things worse rather than better.

    (Actually, I'm more of a "Constitutional Law 'n Order Anarchist/Minarchist" Let's get there by legal means, such as repeals and amendments.)

    A prime example of this order-dependence is the immigration barriers. Open borders would be nice. But you have to remove the cancerous overgrowth of the social services first. Otherwise you get an inrush of people who put a far larger load on the services than any taxes on them cover, while depressing wages and breaking unions. A double pick of the workers' pocket - for the dubious "benefit" of giving employers a break on wages. The mass of workers gets hit twice - once in the paycheck, again in taxes. A perfect, though indirect, example of "corporate welfare".

    Then the citizens retaliate in elections. Libertarians, with their track record of going after any piece of their agenda without regard for the consequences of the order, become further marginalized. Naturalizing the incoming won't help Libertarians either: The bulk of their votes will go for more benefits for themselves.

    Your situation is another example: To do what you want you need to get rid of the laws that make owning a machine gun or using it for home defense nearly impossible before you retreat to your fortress neighborhood and open the borders. B-)

    --
    Bantam Dominique roosters crow a four-note song. Once you've heard it as "Happy BIRTHday" you can't NOT hear it that way
  24. Anybody surprised by this? by PingXao · · Score: 1

    I know I'm not. I'm not a dyed-in-the-wool free marketeer (or rather I am, but there's no such thing as a truly free market), but a long held belief of theirs is that government produces NOTHING. I don't necessarily agree with that statement 100%, but these new passports are emblematic of what the government is getting into the business of. They are getting into the business of providing security, and, quite frankly, they are not very good at it.

    Of all the things I can think of that the government ought to produce for its citizens (efficiency, level playing fields, regulated markets, affordable health care) this garbage - fake security - isn't on the list.

  25. Easy way to beat RFID by Plekto · · Score: 1

    This also works for any implanted chip/scanner/biometric data tracker/etc.

    Just hit the thing with a stungun for a second. This also will fry a computer motherboard instantly by just touching the case with the arc.(not that I've done this - lol - just to show how effectively it nukes anything with a microchip in it)

  26. Re:Contact in Paper Doesn't Work. by mpapet · · Score: 1

    What you are advocating is a card approach which is not compatible with legacy passport systems still in use. The old ways die hard in gov't.

    --
    http://www.maxineudall.com/2010/02/should-economists-be-sued-for-malpractice.html
  27. Sorry for the double post by geekoid · · Score: 1

    Muni wi-fi is good. Just like freeways.

    It gives a lot more power to the people then private corp. would do.

    --
    The Kruger Dunning explains most post on /. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect
  28. People are still using that ? by Programmer_In_Traini · · Score: 1

    This is so funny (in a sarcastic kind of way),

    we keep readin about RFID tags being breached for this, or for that, that the content can be read if you do this, hacked if you do that.

    LOL.

    How many holes in your armor do you need before you understand that its not bulletproof ?

    Its like those electronic voting machines. As far as my knowledge goes, there is yet to exist a tamper proof machine for safe e-Voting. Why are they still going this way how many millions are they gonna spend before they realize it costs less to go the good ole paper ballot way.

    Sometimes, simpler is better.

    --
    If you look like your passport photo, you're too ill to travel. - Will Kommen
  29. not a security issue, a privacy issue by Kristoph · · Score: 1

    A copy of 'biometric' passport information has no value in a security context. If a copy of a passport is created using the biometric information then, obviously, that biometric information will not match the passport holder which will mean he/she will be identified as carrying a forged passport. If the biometrics are changed the digest of the passport information will be invalid and so, again, he/she will be identified as carrying a forged passport.

    This is really only an issue because someone can get your personal information (for use in, for example, financial identity fraud) without having to actually open any of your mail.

    ]{

  30. already been done... by ninjapiratemonkey · · Score: 1

    ...slashdot already covered the exact same story about four months ago.
    is there any difference that I have failed to notice?

    --
    01110000 01010111 01101110 00110011 01100100
    1. Re:already been done... by h2g2bob · · Score: 1

      Yes, but this time it's covered by the so called experts which the government listens to. It was previously reported by dammed commies.

  31. Psssttt by geekoid · · Score: 1

    this happen in England.

    --
    The Kruger Dunning explains most post on /. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect
  32. Re:No No! No! by maxume · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Is the chip required to get through customs? If not, the procedures is more like:

    1. Read and crack data without being detected(this is perhaps easier than stealing a traditional passport).
    2. Forge now even more legitimate passport using cracked data.

    --
    Nerd rage is the funniest rage.
  33. New RFID to Secure HID, Passports, ID and CreditC by ktija · · Score: 1

    http://www.immuneid.com/ [immuneid.com] Immune ID works in a very simple, safe and practical way. With Immune ID on documents, credit cards and credentials, the identification device on them will always remain deactivated unless the user activates them through physical touch. Without human contact, any reading and/or writing attempt will fail. Thus, your information is protected from harmful use. The user will also have a visual and/or audio confirmation included in the device*. Immune ID is an innovative protection system for all electronic documents using technologies such as RFID, Rubee, Smart Dots, EAS, etc.: passports, credit cards, driving licenses, access cards, etc. Immune ID eliminates the risk of having all your important and personal information broadcasted on public air, at the reach of anyone who may want to duplicate, steal, modify or use it in dangerous and harmful ways. Immune ID is the best solution for those who want to ensure themselves a safer and protected life.

  34. Re:No No! No! by POPE+Mad+Mitch · · Score: 1

    if it was so hard to forge a passport then they wouldnt need the extra security they claim the rfid chip gives. but guess what, passports are already being forged.

    the rfid chip contains photo biometrics certainly (not a high res picture either, theres only a tiny amount of storage space), but fingerprints arent included yet in many cases (and were never mandated by ICAO) it also doesnt include your signature.

    so somebody that looks a bit like you, enough to pass casual observation (we all know computer face matching is very unreliable, people are even worse at it), can have a passport with your details on and their own choice of signature, which world+dog will assume is totally authentic, and which they can now use to claim your name and address as their own identity.

  35. Not at all. by Ungrounded+Lightning · · Score: 1

    What you are advocating is a card approach which is not compatible with legacy passport systems still in use. The old ways die hard in gov't.

    Not at all. There's no reason the material the chip is embedded in -and the electrodes are on the surface of - has to have the form factor of a credit card. You can use the the cover of the passport - front or back, outside or inside - just fine.

    Passports have had plastic-coated covers for over a decade. There's no reason the plastic layer can't be made thick enough to contain the chip and support its contact patches.

    --
    Bantam Dominique roosters crow a four-note song. Once you've heard it as "Happy BIRTHday" you can't NOT hear it that way
    1. Re:Not at all. by dgatwood · · Score: 1

      You can get almost twice as many bytes into a 1cm x 1cm 2D barcode as you can in an entire typical RFID chip. Use an entire page and you have orders of magnitude more storage.

      So why RFID again? The only possibilities I can think of are that either the poliicians are complete idiots, they got a large campaign contribution from an RFID vendor, or they intend to use it to spy on the ciizens. Since one should never attribute to malice what can be explained by incompetence, my guess is that the politicians involved are dumber than a post. That said, history has shown that one should never rule out the benefits of a good bribe... err.. campaign contribution....

      --

      Check out my sci-fi/humor trilogy at PatriotsBooks.

  36. just hax your RFID! by TimeSpeak · · Score: 1

    [most] /. readers should be prepared for: mandatory civilian RFID tags...
    get your RFID Experimentation kit now! http://www.thinkgeek.com/geektoys/science/907a/

    --
    Am no fek Buddhist, but this is enlightenment.
    1. Re:just hax your RFID! by h2g2bob · · Score: 1

      Good job, but what kind of loony privacy tool requires Windows?

  37. It's a feature, right? by DimGeo · · Score: 1

    Isn't this exactly what RFID passports are intended for? I mean, facilitating ID theft? :)

  38. Solution for passport office... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Obviously they need DRM! They need to talk to the bright lights of the DRM field (e.g., Macrovision or the people who came up with ACCS), who have all sorts of sophisticated techniques and years of experience dealing with situations where you are handing over the encrypted content and the key to a third party, but still manage to keep the whole thing secure. :-)

  39. What about the key? by MollyB · · Score: 1

    I seem to recall that my database 101 class (using DBaseIV for us greyhairs) had something like a prime directive: Never build structure into your data. Why was the key (apart from the RFID issues) such a bone-headed construct? Or, as I suspect, it's "good enuff for gummint work" at work?

  40. Re:No No! No! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Stop expecting more from the new passport than the design requirements fulfill.

    I think the problem we all have is that there is no design requirement fulfilled by RFID here beyond the wiz-bang boy-is-this-cool requirement.

  41. Vunerability by h2g2bob · · Score: 1

    Summary: UK Passports vulnerable to brute force attack
    CVE: None
    Date: Mar 07 2007 10:25PM
    Credit: Adam Laurie is credited with discovering this issue
    Vulnerable: UK Passport >= 2006
    Not vulnerable: UK Passport < 2006

    Lack of security checking or strong passwords allows an attacker to gain access
    to personal details stored on the passport by launching a brute force or
    dictionary attack. An attacker would need access to a region of a few
    centimeters around the passport, but would not need to the passport itself.

    References
      * http://www.guardian.co.uk/idcards/story/0,,1950226 ,00.html
      * http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/new s/news.html?in_article_id=440069&in_page_id=1770

  42. Six hundred bucks?!?!? by volpe · · Score: 1

    For a cup of hot tea?

    1. Re:Six hundred bucks?!?!? by ScrewMaster · · Score: 1

      No, because obviously a simple finite probability generator wasn't sufficient to beat Mr. Larson. They would have needed to spend some extra bucks on an infinite improbability generator.

      --
      The higher the technology, the sharper that two-edged sword.
  43. Comment removed by account_deleted · · Score: 1

    Comment removed based on user account deletion

  44. key encryption? by yasir_it072016 · · Score: 1

    the problem im having with this is the key to the encryption is on the passport itself..anyone can get the information from the chip even if it was copyed with or without opening the packaging. The point of encryting with a key is that nobody else besides the user and receiver(in this case airprot security) never knows the key..

  45. On/Off switch by rwa2 · · Score: 1

    RFID really just needs a simple on/off switch that completes the circuit to its antenna. Is anyone doing this?

    My Metro SmartTrip card essentially does this all by itself after sitting in my wallet for a while. The only way it registers to readers is if I flex the card a certain way.

    It's only after a year or two when I have to replace the card that the authorities can track my ass once again. ;P

  46. WTF? by GWBasic · · Score: 1

    Last night I cloned my passport by putting it in a color copier.

    Serisouly, someone who has access to the mail can just open the envelope, copy it, and then re-seal the envelope.