Slashdot Mirror
All Microsoft Updates Phone Home
juct writes "In the wake of heise Security's report on the garrulous WGA Notification, Microsoft has now supplied additional details on the data sent. They have revealed to developers that apparently all updates relay information to the company in Redmond."
you don't go through Microsoft Updates but instead go to their Security Search and manually download each patch?
Since you've never activated WGA, does that mean you're invisible to Microsoft?
We will bankrupt ourselves in the vain search for absolute security. -- Dwight D. Eisenhower
That's hardly surprising.
Considering that most of these applications are installed via the windows-update site...
I doubt you could even maintain a session without sending information back to the web-server.
I say: nothing to see here, move along.
Sigs are for the weak.
"When the product IDs and product keys found belong to legal software, Microsoft will delete the data right away; only in cases of suspected software piracy will it store the data, the company has said. In the blog, the company once again explicitly states that it does not use the information gathered to identify or contact users." ...so we are expected to believe (by this wording) that they WILL keep the information relating to illegal installations, but not use it to identify the person using it.
Why does that sound like a lie?
http://wstewart.php0h.com - the sugarbuzz project blog
There really is nothing to see for those who are technically literate to the operation of modern systems. This sort of thing, however, should be included as a sticker on the front of all MS products as the majority of the population probably does not think about the consequences of callbacks. Most consumers, whom I've met, actively avoid products which obviously track their movements unless the product is highly desirable (eg. cellular telephones). Making the reality of callbacks more popularly known would have a definite impact on the decisions which consumers make.
the NPG electrode was replaced with carbon blac
*In his best E.T. voice*
P.C. Phone Home
*ahem* I mean.. uhh.. I can understand wanting some information about the machines running one's software, as it helps understand the market and improve upon current design. But SOME of this information seems a bit excessive. Unless one plans to start banning specific pieces of hardware, but that's just evil.
software vendors are firmly locked into the attitude that you, LICENSOR, have no rights other than to buy new stuff when we drop support for the old stuff and design the new stuff to only superficially work with the old stuff.
like, for instance, all of the "cool features" use new runtimes and new features, and none of it is backwards compatible.
so is anybody really surprised here? if the user hash code field they recover is all over the warez circuit, no matter what the EULA says, someday the number of hits on you is going to run over some trigger number in update. at that point, you will run into a block.
had to reinstall windows ME legally on a machine last weekend. got all the critical updates pulled off on IE, and from that point on, update kept returning "thank you, you have a Mac, you can't update here." everything worked fine the next day, and I got the rest of the criticals done.
I can only assume they have all sorts of wonderful blocks and trigger numbers over there, and since they own the software and you own only a cancelled check, it's just tough damn luck.
if this is supposed to be a new economy, how come they still want my old fashioned money?
> By learning at what point in the install process some users decide to abandon, we can put more effort into the right places in the installation wizard. Remember our goal with the wizard is to give more information so customers will be better informed. We heard from customers that they wanted more information about what the software was and how it worked so we created the install wizard to provide that greater context. Knowing this kind of information about the install wizard installations is critical for us to continue to improve the customer experience of WGA. If we are not hitting that mark, we can use this method to improve.
By learning at what point in the install process some users decide to say "Fuck this, I didn't sign up for this!", we can put more effort into the right places in the installation wizard. Remember our goal with the wizard is to obfuscate and misdirect so customers will either not know how we're spying on them, or for those who figure it out, at least they won't be able to sue us over it. We heard from customers that they wanted to know what else were doing behind their backs so we created the install wizard to provide us with plausible deniability. Knowing this kind of information about the install wizard installations is critical for us to continue to propagate the viral meme of WGA and other notions, like software as a service, and ultimately the notion of an operating system as a subscription-based service, like we're doing with the Windows Vista self-destruct sequence. If we are not hitting that mark, we can use this method to slowly increase the amount of DRM we've crammed up your ass until you look like the Goatse Guy, and if we do it slowly enough, you'll not only pay us, you'll thank us for the privilege!.
My firewall detects the connections after doing manual installs. I know this because I've got production equipment we can't just let windows auto-update on. Based on my experience, WGA is just one of many apps/updates that phones home.
/.?
Again, it's been this way for quite a while, and the information does not "perfectly" identify you, but each install has it's own signature as far as I can tell so they can deduce who you are pretty quickly.
Why do you care now as opposed to all of the other Microsoft's-evil-OS stories on
Got Trader Joe's? friendwich.com RSS feeds work now!
So I guess it might be a bit sneaky, but it has all been covered by WGA disclosures.
An example of the XML returned when a user cancels an installation is available here, "just to allay any fears that Microsoft is using any personal information".
So ya, I don't think this is a huge deal, nor particularly unexpected.
Is the executable digitally signed?
Has the certificate covering the signer been revoked?
Are you installing some Nokia application or are you installing a disguisted copy of Claria adware? If I get my hands on the private key for the company Nokia is using to build their application, I can sign anything I want as that company. It is up to them to revoke the certificate. Wouldn't you like to know?
I know, if you had the source code you wouldn't need a digital certificate because you could compile it yourself and then you would know. After downloading the libraries it uses. And after checking through all of the source code and comparing MD5 signatures to make sure you have the correct version of all of the libraries, not some spyware-infected trojan.
Sounds sort of like a digital signature to me.
Seeing that Microsoft has done very poorly in correctly determining which installations of Windows are legitimate, how competently can they track legal software?
Funtime Candy Wow! - my plan for eventually conquering Japan.
TFA: "In the Privacy Statement of Windows Update Microsoft grants itself fairly far-reaching rights. Thus the information collected by the Redmond-based behemoth includes the computer make and model, version information for the operating system, browser, and any other Microsoft software for which updates might be available, Plug&Play ID numbers of hardware devices, region and language setting, Globally Unique Identifier (GUID), Product ID and Product Key, BIOS name, revision number, and revision date"
Kinda sad that we just assume letting vendors capture all this info is part of the game (i.e. necessary to make the update work right). Wrong. When I do "yum upgrade" -- as far as I know -- not a single piece of information about my system goes up the wire. Correct me if I'm wrong.
My turnips listen for the soft cry of your love
Usually you will be forced to download WGA before you can get to other updates -and your new install of Windows XP or Vista will stop booting after about 45-60 days if it has not been validated online. Obviously there are OEM and corporate versions cracked versions which will install without online validation, but the requirement for WGA for software updates is probably still on.
My hope is that is all of these things make running pirated versions of Windows more difficult -particularly in the developing countries where internet connectivity is spotty such that OSS can gain in popularity and use. This could end up being a real win for Linux and other OSS.
cue stories of entire countries running off a single pirated copies of Windows and Office.....
-I'm just sayin'
I doubt M$ will want to retain THAT information...
Eternity: will that be smoking, or non-smoking? I Corinthians 6:9-10
MS is really running a P2P network through all its zombies (er, I mean, installs).
Engineering is the art of compromise.
For example, if you are using the Visual Studio 2005 IDE and use the integrated access to the online MSDN documentation, you can copy the URL from the address bar in VS2005 and paste it into firefox. What you'll find, in many cases, is Firefox asking you if you would like to download "HiddenCheck.exe". Though I have not seen this for some time now, I have recently found that there are a few pages in the online MSDN docs that load fine with IE, yet say the "Resource is not available" in Firefox. Of course, while I'm sort-of whining a little, I may as well go on to complain about how several of the MSDN pages only render properly in IE. :-( I can't trust them enough to use their own browser without feeling like I'm being watched, and I can't use an alternative browser in an attempt to try to protect my privacy. Granted, I'm not doing anything wrong, but that feeling of always being watched is enough to make anybody feel uneasy.
So, I live in the EU. We have rather stronger laws regarding companies holding information on people than you Americans do. I object to this information being collected on me. Whilst I can't stop them collecting it, I CAN force Microsoft to reveal all information they hold about me, after I pay an admin fee of around £10 and it'll cost them far more than that to provide it. One person is nothing, but if a whole bunch of irate people were to start asking for this information - MS would be very unhappy. Now if only EFF Europe or some other organisation would organise a pro-forma, and encourage a mass "ask MS to reveal what they hold on you" - as many people as possible in as small a window as possible. Geurilla consumerism is great fun!
todo - The developer's equivalent of confession: "Forgive me Father, for I have sinned..."
I'm not suggesting that it will keep people from buying MS products (though that would be nice, in the long run). What is more important is to encourage a frame of mind in the American consumers that such things can and do happen, on a regular basis, and the people who are making use of those systems may have some very severe ulterior motives.
With respect to "ulterior motives" most American consumers are nearly completely compromised by their consumerism mindset. People, in general, need careful guidance to stay focused on things which are important but which may be hidden from plain sight.
the NPG electrode was replaced with carbon blac
"In the Privacy Statement of Windows Update Microsoft grants itself fairly far-reaching rights. Thus the information collected by the Redmond-based behemoth includes the computer make and model, version information for the operating system, browser, and any other Microsoft software for which updates might be available, Plug&Play ID numbers of hardware devices, region and language setting, Globally Unique Identifier (GUID), Product ID and Product Key, BIOS name, revision number, and revision date"
There are what - like a billion or so computers in the world running an M$FT operating system?
And e.g. Windows 2000 is now up to something like 125 or 150 Critical Updates since SP4?
And they're keeping track of all of that data?
That's a database that would make the NSA green with envy.
Can SQLServer handle a load like that?
Or would you be looking at something specialized, like what National Cash Register built for Wal-Mart?
From the WGA Blog
- Source ID (which product is requesting an update) - necessary to get the right patches
- Event Code - Not sure what sort of events this is tracking, curious, but not necessarily evil
- Version - I assume this means version of the updater, but could mean version of the base software, either way see #1
- Hash of the event - good security check
- Custom Data - completely unexplained, this is what worries me the most in the list
- Return Code - ok from a usability standpoint (most websites track when users leave, so I put this in the same class as that)
- Part of a domain? - no reason for this to be sent, as far as I can see
- Partial binary product key - piracy reasons? Can't think of any other good reason for this
- WPA hash - also unexplained, but probably related to the above
- OS version - see #1
- User locale ID (langauge) - reasonable if they are presenting nationalized dialogs, removes a prompt from the user
- System locale ID (computer default language) - don't see much of a reason for this except as a backup for the first, odd
- Diagnostic code - reasonable for debugging
- Client Id - i.e. GUID - why do they get this if they aren't using it for user tracking
- HD volume serial - no reason for this, except user identification
- Computer security hash - see above
Other than those last identifiers, most of the information I see requested make sense.Clones are people two.
Here is the fix,
/etc/hosts
on a *Nix box, say maybe the DNS server
vi
127.0.0.3 genuine.microsoft.com
For windows
edit c:\windows\system32\drivers\etc\hosts
0.0.0.0 genuine.microsoft.com
The spirit of resistance to government is so valuable on certain occasions that I wish it to be always kept alive
They're not even tracking down individual users for marketing purposes.
How many slashdotters look at their website logs to see how many people visit and what they use to do so? I'm willing to bet a huge amount of people do, and they're the same people who bitch about MS updates phoning home. To complete HTTP requests you don't *need* anything more than the actual request and an IP address, yet somehow the logs include things like browser versions, screen resolutions and operating systems. You don't complain about those.
Aggregate data is needed to gauge how a product is being used in order to improve it, be it your website, software, a car, a lawnmower or something else. When MS start actively using personally identifiable information to personally target things then I'll worry, but until that day I have no problems with them knowing that 82% of their user base has installed security patch XYZ.
How many people can read hex if only you and dead people can read hex?
It is a violation of privacy and Microsoft is sending information back to their location for storage or not against the wishes of an individual.
If you break the law it is still up to the police and the courts to follow legal procedure to catch you and prove you broke the law and then to punish you commensurate with the proven charges. Even if you steal something and they know you stole it they can't do anything about it till they prove it. Part of that process is to get the legal search warrants and other court orders to permit them to do this.
Microsoft is a civil organization which is usurping the rules of law that were well established. In fact, they are effectively searching everyone's home every time to prove they are not in possession of stolen goods. The government can't do that. Microsoft should not either.
Any information sent to them without our express permission is a violation of our privacy whether they store it or not. It is not permissible for them to blatantly flaunt in our faces the fact that there is no one there to stop them and if you try you won't have the resources to do so.
Again people, remember the computer you have is an extension of your home. It is not a playground for microsoft to do what they want. Would you allow them to come into your home to inventory your belongings and then make you account for all those things you may purchase after the fact? Would you let them check on you any time they choose? Hell no. You would never let anyone into your home to do that. So, why on fucking hearth are you letting them search your computer to inventory your system to send private information back to their offices? Is it because it isn't an inconvenience to you to allow them to do this? Because you have no recourse to stop them?
So, you say that it doesn't hurt you to have them to enter your home and search it and report back to their offices? So, then would it hurt you to allow the government to do this if they could do it in such a non-invasive way? How about putting hidden camera's in say 20% of homes and no one knows they are there so you have at least an 80% chance of not being spied on!?! Would that be acceptable to you? Hell, 1 if 5 chance of being someone that is observed by the government. Once you got used to it, wouldn't it be acceptable to have the government then say 40% and up it over the next 10 years to 60% and then all the way? You would have become accustomed to having the government spy on you?
I think you understand what I'm getting at. This is the same thing. You would not let the government do such a thing, and even some people feel cameras in public are a violation of our privacy.
Microsoft is not the government and they have no rights to do what they are doing. They should not be collecting any information unless you explicitly permit it.
As I have said in other posts. This is about them collecting as many pieces in their databases as possible. Having this information gives them a lot of leverage.
Have you heard about how the patent office has claimed that file sharing software is a threat to national security? How about a monopoly power that has control over 90% of the worlds computers able to go into your computer and home unchecked by any sort of mechanism that is designed for checks and balances? You think that is less a threat to national security than it is to allow people to share information between 1 or 2 or more party members. Either the comments by the patent office are totally ludicrous or no one is willing to accept that this sort of unchecked behavior by a company in control of 90% of the worlds computers is a threat to national security.
You can lead a man with reason but you can't make him think.
My brother works on the Windows update team in Redmond. Just to clear things up, here's what I know:
1) Since there are so many update events, the client software only sends a random sample ~10% of all events to the server. This was added in one of the more recent changes to the Windows Update s/w.
2) Yeah, they have a *huge* data warehouse that they store all that info in. It's SQL Server 2005 and one of the larger SQL Server installs in the world. From what he tells me, they get millions of new rows each day, so they can only keep 1 year of data available online in the database (everything else gets moved off to tape or to another database). BTW, it's in the terybytes.
3) They use this data to help better serve their customers. They have a reporting/analytics solution built on top of that Data Warehouse. They can analyze history by region, by service pack, by language, etc. So they can make better strategic decisions with that info and in a more timely manner (it's updated daily).
Look, here's one example where that data is useful for them - if a few customers call up and say there update is failing, a tech support person can look at some data for that customer's region, or service pack, or update and see if there are any trends there to help move the case along (i.e. maybe a trend shows that a bunch of users with that OS are having problems with that update).
No comment on the privacy issues - all they know about is your computer's GUI and your IP address (i.e. city/state/zip or region/country). Some are ok with that, many aren't.
The Microsoft vs. Government analogy is not quite right: Using Microsoft products (and agreeing to their EULAs) is like granting cops access to your home on your own free will. Cops don't need warrants if you invite them to come in! Government needs special authorization (search warrant) to enter, because we have no way of escaping their power, so a safeguard is needed to prevent abuse. But Microsoft doesn't need a warrant or something similar, because, basically, you're free NOT to use their software, and can therefore legally get out of their snooping reach.
cpghost at Cordula's Web.