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Kuiper Belt Collision Found; Possible Comet Source

Posted by Zonk on from the we-really-must-visit-one-day dept.

siglercm writes "Astronomers have detected the remnants of an ancient collision in the Kuiper Belt, the region of bodies found outside of our solar system. The massive impact between a nearly Pluto-sized body and one half as large created a 'collisional family' of objects; this is the first such family identified in the Kuiper Belt. The largest body produced may cross Neptune's orbit in the distant future, but it's possible that smaller objects created by the smash-up have already fallen into the inner solar system as comets."

68 comments

  1. Kuiper Crash by Stanistani · · Score: 4, Insightful

    How does the "dirty snowball" composition of comets fit into this theory?
    Wouldn't the result resemble asteroids rather than comets?

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    1. Re:Kuiper Crash by IndustrialComplex · · Score: 1

      That was the first thing that came to mind for me as well. The only thing I can think of would be that for some reason this planetoid was composed of all that was left on the rim of the solar system.

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    2. Re:Kuiper Crash by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Bah! Everybody knows that Comets came from Mercuy

    3. Re:Kuiper Crash by stratjakt · · Score: 2, Funny

      The snowballs come from the kuiper belt, they get dirty when they brush up against Uranus.

      hee hee. Imagine how boring astronomy would be if they didn't name Uranus what they did?

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    4. Re:Kuiper Crash by Stanistani · · Score: 2, Funny

      "Sorry, Fry, But scientists renamed Uranus in 2620 to end that stupid joke."

      What's it called now?"

      "Urectum."

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    5. Re:Kuiper Crash by siglercm · · Score: 4, Insightful

      I was really dense in reading your post at first. I think I understand your question now, but please let me know if I've got it wrong.

      This is a possible source of some (few) comets (if I understand correctly). I don't believe there's any assertion that all comets come from this collision. The main object is mostly rocky, but they say the trailing small ones are icy. It's possible that some of these smaller bodies may have been perturbed from their orbits and fallen into the inner solar system as comets.

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    6. Re:Kuiper Crash by Lord+Ender · · Score: 1

      A "dirty snowball" sounds like something that would cost extra in a brothel.

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    7. Re:Kuiper Crash by Stanistani · · Score: 1

      That makes sense. Could be the object had an icy coating, was broken up, and the outer bits, if perturbed into the right orbit, became cometary objects.

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    8. Re:Kuiper Crash by IHateEverybody · · Score: 1

      All Kuiper Belt objects resemble icy asteroids. But as the article somewhat obliquely points out, when KBOs cross the obit of Neptune and move into the inner solar system they, start to heat up and grow icy tails. In other words, they turn into comets.

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  2. So much for.. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    the big sky theory...

  3. Is it just me? by zappepcs · · Score: 1

    Sure, I know that this is about evidence that this is what happens, but since they taught us about gravity in grade school, this as a source of meteorites etc. just makes common sense. Am I alone on this one?

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    1. Re:Is it just me? by torxic · · Score: 0

      Yes, but did you know what collision caused this comets? Mars and Earth obviously didn't collide to form comets.

      But now, after reading TFA, we know it's the Kuiper's belt.

  4. How many planets could there be? by IndustrialComplex · · Score: 1

    How far from the Sun could we expect to keep finding planets? Has anyone come up with an 'Outer Limit' for holding an object in orbit?

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    1. Re:How many planets could there be? by Tablizer · · Score: 2, Funny

      How far from the Sun could we expect to keep finding planets? Has anyone come up with an 'Outer Limit' for holding an object in orbit?

      If its too far out, then it is more likely to be disturbed by other stars besides the sun (current or past). In theory the orbital boundary of the sun is nearly infinite. In practice, our neighborhood stars muck up any outer orbits. For a non-geek analogy, it is sort of like having kids and living next store to Michael Jackson.

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  5. What about Pluto? by benhocking · · Score: 5, Interesting

    What about Pluto, Charon, Hydra, and Nix? Couldn't they be such a family?

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    1. Re:What about Pluto? by isorox · · Score: 1

      What about Pluto, Charon, Hydra, and Nix? Couldn't they be such a family?

      Yes, they probably are the kids of some aging rock star

  6. outside? by Feyr · · Score: 2, Interesting

    outside of our solar system? neptune belongs to this solar system. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kuiper_belt

    1. Re:outside? by IndustrialComplex · · Score: 1

      My God. It's just like our own.

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    2. Re:outside? by Tablizer · · Score: 1

      outside of our solar system? neptune belongs to this solar system

      Neptune stated, "If brother Pluto cannot be a planet, then I quit this [bleep] family!"

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    3. Re:outside? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "outside of" is a double preposition. Just use "outside" by itself. Same goes for the OP.

    4. Re:outside? by JackMeyhoff · · Score: 1

      The last time we attempted a rescue this far out it never came back and now she wont let us leave :|

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    5. Re:outside? by Feyr · · Score: 1

      i'll try to remember that one, thanks

  7. So they found Kzanol's ship? by R2.0 · · Score: 2, Funny

    I guess Larry Niven had it right.

    --
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    1. Re:So they found Kzanol's ship? by east+coast · · Score: 1

      If any sci-fi writer does get it right it will doubtlessly be Niven. The man is a God.

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    2. Re:So they found Kzanol's ship? by $RANDOMLUSER · · Score: 1

      The man [Niven] is a God.
      Certainly he has the ego for it. Maybe more.
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  8. That would be really cool if we were to see... by physicsboy500 · · Score: 0

    A "comet shower" in our lifetime as long as none penetrate the atmosphere. Could you imagine what it would look like to see 15 or 16 comets at once in the night sky??!?

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    1. Re:That would be really cool if we were to see... by Tablizer · · Score: 1

      A "comet shower" in our lifetime as long as none penetrate the atmosphere. Could you imagine what it would look like to see 15 or 16 comets at once in the night sky??!?

      Hell, we'd run out of cults real fast.

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    2. Re:That would be really cool if we were to see... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Funny

      Crap, better buy Koolaid stock quick

  9. Quick... by djones101 · · Score: 1

    Someone call the best deep core driller! *cue Bruce Willis*

    1. Re:Quick... by $RANDOMLUSER · · Score: 1

      *cue Bruce Willis*
      "Yippee-ki-yay, motherfucker."
      --
      No folly is more costly than the folly of intolerant idealism. - Winston Churchill
    2. Re:Quick... by JackMeyhoff · · Score: 1

      It was "Yippee-ki-yay, Kemo Sabe" before 21.00 o'clock :)

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  10. Likely source? by Bonker · · Score: 1

    I think we all know the source of these fragments:

    "Deado Scream"

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    1. Re:Likely source? by Tablizer · · Score: 1

      I think we all know the source of these fragments: "Deado Scream"

      You're supposed to say "Uranus". What's with this new batch of 'dotters?

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    2. Re:Likely source? by Bonker · · Score: 0, Flamebait

      Pathetic fanboy trumps grade-school potty humour any day of the week.

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    3. Re:Likely source? by Kutsal · · Score: 1

      Naah...

      They're the remnants of an ancient Imperial Outpost destroyed by an Achuultani attack... ;)

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  11. How Many? by anzha · · Score: 1

    Anyone have a link to the total number of Kuipier Belt objects they've found? It hasn't past 100 yet has it?

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  12. Hill sphere comes close to what you want by benhocking · · Score: 4, Informative

    If you consider the nearest stars and/or the galaxy as a whole, you could calculate the Hill sphere for the Sun. I do believe that, in purely technical terms, it's large.

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  13. Try 800 by benhocking · · Score: 4, Informative

    At least according to Wikipedia! (I had no idea we were up that high, either.)

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    1. Re:Try 800 by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Check Wikipedia again. Looks like another 300 more were found in the last several hours... :)

  14. shaped like a M&M by daniel23 · · Score: 3, Informative

    I spent more than an hour reading about this and other finds on the homepage of one of the team who found that,
    M.E.Brown

    The Link has a animated model of the thing and a schematic of its structure that looks like candy..

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    1. Re:shaped like a M&M by siglercm · · Score: 1

      Thanks for that excellent link! Wish I had some mod points :-( I happened to catch this story earlier today while I was surfing around....

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    2. Re:shaped like a M&M by MadUndergrad · · Score: 2, Funny

      It appears to have a thin crunchy shell of rock on the outside with a core composed primarily of rich dark matter.

    3. Re:shaped like a M&M by Sinical · · Score: 1
      Wow!


      It spins end over end every 4 hours like a football that has been kicked...

      ...The answer is that it is as big as Pluto -- along its longest dimension.

      To me that's just staggering. According to Google, Pluto's diameter is 2274km, so the circumference of a circle described by this thing spinning would be ~7144km. So to cover this in 4 hours, the radial velocity is 1786km/hour (1110mph)! Yeah, I can see why it's streched out.

      Wow!
  15. damn misreadings by GroeFaZ · · Score: 1

    That's what you get for watching good old Babylon 5 all week: instead of reading "ancient colisions", reading "ancient civilizations". That would indeed be stuff that matters.

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    1. Re:damn misreadings by MrCopilot · · Score: 1
      reading "ancient colisions", reading "ancient civilizations". That would indeed be stuff that matters.

      Ok, OffTopic but here ya go.

      http://www.learner.org/resources/series58.html Excellent Series on Civilization mostly Western, but a good primer.

      --
      OSGGFG - Open Source Gamers Guide to Free Games
  16. reminiscient of Velikovsky by mrtexe · · Score: 2, Insightful

    This reminds me of the work of Boris Velikovsky. Of course, citing him would be like a Christian seminarian citing the satanic bible.

    1. Re:reminiscient of Velikovsky by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It'd be more like citing a drunk in court. "Just the facts."

    2. Re:reminiscient of Velikovsky by painQuin · · Score: 1

      I'd like to see someone pull that off legitimately. Something like "because of what it says here [satanic bible], we can interpret Satan's motivations here [regular bible] as such, etc etc"

      that'd be cool.

      --
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    3. Re:reminiscient of Velikovsky by IHateEverybody · · Score: 1

      IIRC, Velikovsky believed that Jupiter spat out comets. One of these comets was responsible for a number of the miracles in the Old Testament. And then it became the planet Venus when it finally cooled down and its orbit stabilized.

      This is pretty different. Here, you have one Pluto-sized object which was hit by a smaller object and broke apart. Some of the debris from that collision was thrown into the inner solar system forming comets and the rest coalesced into a into a large, fast spinning object and miscellaneous smaller objects including its two moons and a few smaller Kuiper Belt objects.

      This isn't a new theory by the way. Most scientists now believe that the Earth and Moon along with Pluto, Charon, and its other satellites where also the result of a similar impact.

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  17. It looks like by HomelessInLaJolla · · Score: 1

    A picture taken through a piece of cardboard with three holes in it. The sun is in the lower left.

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  18. Did I miss the memo? by Control+Group · · Score: 1

    Since when is the Kuiper Belt "outside" our solar system? I was under the (erroneous?) impression that the solar system is defined by the sun, such that anything that orbits the sun (or that orbits a body orbiting the sun) is part of the solar system. The Kuiper Belt certainly qualifies by that criterion, doesn't it?

    Did the definition change recently? Have I been wrong about the definition the whole time?

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    1. Re:Did I miss the memo? by siglercm · · Score: 1

      I believe you're right. I probably should've said, more accurately, "region of bodies found outside of the orbit of Neptune" without talking about inside or outside the solar system :-)

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    2. Re:Did I miss the memo? by R3d+M3rcury · · Score: 1

      You're right and they're wrong. That said...

      I think the way they're defining "the solar system" is basically the area where planets orbit--say, out to Neptune. After that, you are "outside" the solar system, even though all these objects in the kuiper belt orbit the sun.

      It's sort of like the atmosphere of the Earth. After a couple of hundred miles, you're in "space" even though there's still bits of Earth's atmosphere up that high.

    3. Re:Did I miss the memo? by geekoid · · Score: 1

      we already have an idea where the suns gravitation force is equal to the forces of deep space.
      Thats the line....sphere really.

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  19. Pltuo eh by SohCahToa · · Score: 1

    >The massive impact between a nearly Pluto-sized body

    *gasp* they are talking about a formally planet sized impact, that must be pretty formally big.

  20. it's 'Grain of salt time' by solitas · · Score: 1

    The article is long on 'could', "believed to be", "is thought to have", and "probably"; but is short on their method(s) of determining all this, as well as their proof(s).

    Did they back-project a lot of orbital data and find a reasonably common intersection point/time? Ouija board? Magic 8-ball (related comic: http://wapsisquare.com/comics/20020125.jpg)? Wikipedia?

    And the "10 billion nuclear bombs" is just asinine. I'm thinking Caltech told the group "hey, you guys - time to publish something; and don't spell us "c-a-l-t-e-c-k" again.

    To be fair, though: it might just be that space.com is pitching their writing to 'the least common denominator'.

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    1. Re:it's 'Grain of salt time' by iamlucky13 · · Score: 1

      Well, nuclear bombs is a standard journalism unit. The best part is, it is interchangeable for power and energy without dividing by time! And space.com does tend to mix a little bit of technical with a little bit of sensational.

      The quote that got me though, was this:

      One day, EL2003 EL61 will cross the orbit of Neptune and become a comet itself. "That's going to be in about a billion years," Brown said. "It's a ways to wait."

      Umm...what? I'm missing something here. An extremely long period for a comet is around 5-10,000 years. Beyond that, it's nearly impossible to even tell if it's gravitationally bound to our solar system or has an escape trajectory because the orbit would have to swing so far out from the sun. Certainly over a billion year period you could expect the state of net gravity along it's path from the sun and other stars to perturb so you can't even tell if it is in the solar system or has been stripped by another star.

      The other possibility is that it's in a roughly circular orbit, in which case, it wouldn't ever wander into the inner solar system, unless he's counting on there being another major collision sometime in the next billion years. This after he's just theorized that the collision happened billions of years ago, when the solar system was a much more crowded place.

      Oh, I should mention, the method of linking the large object to the smaller objects believed to be collision debris is based on similarities in orbit (they're close together) and reflected spectra (they're made of the same stuff). Also, an object that small should not have attained that great of a rotational speed simply through accretion, so an impact is definitely likely.

    2. Re:it's 'Grain of salt time' by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Pluto's orbit comes closer to the sun than Neptune at times, but its orbit never actually crosses Neptune's because of its inclination. Therefore, it will never get close enough to Neptune to have its orbit perturbed enough to send it into the inner solar system or be captured. That wasn't the case for Triton. Perhaps the guy who found this object (Brown) knows enough about its orbit(or he couldn't have gotten recognition for its discovery) to know that it does come close enough to Neptune's orbital path to say that it's not close enough to Neptune now each time they do their rounds, but it will be in about 1 billion years worth of orbits.

      Captcha: unending

  21. Pluto sized comet! by Evil+Pete · · Score: 1

    I particularly liked the comment near the bottom of the page that since this body (lengthwise the diameter of Pluto) is in an unstable zone then in about a billion years it will become a comet ploughing into the inner system ... gasp! It and its moons will be some sight ... make even Bruce Willis crap in his pants.

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  22. Buuuugs!! by nephridium · · Score: 1

    Klendathu, source of the bug meteor attacks orbits a twin star system whose brutal gravitational forces produce an unlimited supply of bug meteorites in the form of this asteroid belt. To ensure the safety of our solar system Klendathu must be eliminated. Do you want to learn more?

    Join the Mobile Infantry and save the world! Service guarantees citizenship!

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  23. Oblig... by Notquitecajun · · Score: 1

    That's no giant remnant of a cosmic collision...

  24. Outside our solar system? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    So we no longer have an Oort Cloud?

  25. Kuiper belt? by PaulOShea · · Score: 1

    Surely you mean the Edgeworth-Kuiper belt, named after Kenneth Essex Edgeworth and Gerard Peter Kuiper.

    Given that Edgeworth made one of the earliest suggestions that a reservoir of comments could exist beyond the planets, his contribution too should be honoured by using the belt's full name.

    Long live the GNU^H^H^HEdgworth-Kuiper Belt!

    1. Re:Kuiper belt? by PaulOShea · · Score: 1

      Dang! 'Comets' not 'Comments'!