Judge Strikes Down COPA, 1998 Online Porn Law

Begopa sends in word that a federal judge has struck down the Child Online Protection Act. The judge said that parents can protect their children through software filters and other less restrictive means that do not limit others' rights to free speech. This was the case for which the US Department of Justice subpoenaed several search companies for search records; only Google fought the order. The case has already been to the Supreme Court. Senior U.S. District Judge Lowell Reed Jr. wrote in his decision: "Perhaps we do the minors of this country harm if First Amendment protections, which they will with age inherit fully, are chipped away in the name of their protection."

Comments

A step in the right direction.

[Short Circuit]

For once, the mouth on the Censorship icon should have the black strip removed. This law has been the dark specter over every forum I've seen for years, and many non-communication-related services, too.

The question is, is COPA finally dead, for good? No more judgements to be made on the case? Please? The article doesn't specify if it could be appealed again.

I realize they'll just pass another law with similar provisions, but at least this helps set the tone in the courts.

Re:A step in the right direction.

[statusbar]

I am very happy about this.

I wrote the first available internet filter for windows 3.1 The Internet Filter specifically because it is the parent's responsibility to decide what their children should and should not see, not the government's responsibility.

--jeffk++

Re:A step in the right direction.

[Dance_Dance_Karnov]

he is saying they won't be children forever, and that the 1st amendment protections everyone enjoys shouldn't be reduced because of them.

Re:A step in the right direction.

[prichardson]

He's saying it's more important for the children, when they grow up, to have full first-amendment rights. Basically he's shooting down the ye olde thinkofthechildren argument.

Re:A step in the right direction.

[EzInKy]

"Perhaps we do the minors of this country harm if First Amendment protections, which they will with age inherit fully, are chipped away in the name of their protection," wrote Senior U.S. District Judge Lowell Reed Jr. I'm not sure where I sit on this law, but this seems like an odd reason to strike it down, since children aren't given the same rights as adults in our society. The most obvious example of this is the right to vote. This comment seems to be out of line with the rest of the opinion.


If you take away the rights of adults today there will be none for minors to inherit tomorrow.
.

Re:A step in the right direction.

[zrobotics]

The real question I've always had is: Why is porn bad for kids? Seriously, I can't come up with any reason at all. Unless it's ultra-violent rape porn or something, porn is typically far less disturbing to a kid than the evening news.

Wait, that's it. Censor CNN!!

Re:A step in the right direction.

[toleraen]

You sir, were the primary motivation for me to learn how to format a hard drive and reinstall Windows when I was younger!

Re:A step in the right direction.

[Short Circuit]

Congress can pass any law it wants. The executive branch enforces the laws. When someone gets screwed over, the related court case has the potential to strike the law down, if it's deemed unconstitutional. (Which is, largely, a matter of whether the defendant has a good enough lawyer.)

At least one attempt at getting a law (the DMCA) struck down prior to a citizen being charged was dismissed because, in the judge's eyes, said citizen wasn't then under threat of being charged. As I recall, that had to do with some academic researcher whose research was made illegal, or at least part of a gray area, by the DMCA.

Re:A step in the right direction.

[Ardeaem]

Except that kind of reasoning is the job of legislators, not judges. Like many judges, he has forgotten his role and taken the job of dictator for life. Actually, all this judge did was say that this law was inconsistent with another, higher law (the Constitution). Simply because he notes that the First Amendment is a good idea for adults doesn't mean he's a dictator.

When did protecting Constitutional rights become being a dictator? This is EXACTLY his job.

Re:A step in the right direction.

[Pojut]

And this is why when i turned 13, my parents bought me a porno mag...they used it as a diagram for "the talk". Instead of telling me NOT to have sex, they encouraged me to have SAFE sex. Teaching abstinance helps no one, teaching safe sex helps everyone.

Seemed to work pretty good to me, I turned out well.

Re:A step in the right direction.

[AndersOSU]

I don't know why I feel compelled to join a debate every time a similar point comes up, but here I go again...

Prison, and punishment in general is not about all about rehabilitation. Other important reasons for punishing law breakers include, but are not limited to, incapacitation, general and specific deterrence, and good old fashioned punishment.

The measure of a persons punishment should consider much much more than the person's current rehabibility status.

A couple of examples:

A bum breaks a window because it gets really cold in Chicago in the winter - he'd rather face the punishment than freeze to death. Sure there may be better ways to stay warm, and he may have chosen unwisely, but given similar circumstances in the future he'd likely do the same thing. Do we lock him up forever for breaking a window - or execute him as you suggest?

I get pulled over for speeding - 60 in a 55 zone, and pay my fine. Three months later I get pulled over again in the same spot again doing 60. Clearly I haven't been rehabilitated of my wanton need for speed. How do you deal with me?

A severely mentally ill person is caught running around your local park naked. Rehab is impossible because there are no known treatments for his condition. Numerous experts testify that in the future he may cause more nuisance crimes, but he is in no way a danger to himself or others. Do we jail him? Is permanent civil commitment a better option? Do we execute all mentally handicap persons? What if is mother testifies that she takes care of him, and she foolishly left the back door unlocked allowing the streaker to escape. She vows that she will be more diligent - and points out that nothing like this has ever happened before. She also makes the excellent point that he will certainly be better cared for at her home than in a state institution. She unfortunately can't guarantee another event like this will never happen again - and as was previously mentioned the man certainly isn't rehabilitated.

Re:A step in the right direction.

[mutterc]

Why is porn bad for kids?

The only reason I can think of, is the non-realistic behaviors.

Imagine you were a 12-year-old boy, having no experience with real-world women, except through porn. You might learn:

• Normal women are just a couple of drinks away from a girl-on-girl adventure.
• If you blackmail/force a woman into sex, she'll end up enjoying it so much that she eventually thanks you.
• (corollary) Prudes and/or lesbians just haven't had a good-enough-in-bed guy yet.
• Group sex is common, and unlikely to tear apart one's primary relationship. Ditto cheating.
• From the way porn is marketed, you might learn that sex is "dirty" or "nasty", and that women with a high sex drive are "out-of-control sluts".

Not that all of these things don't have a place in healthy fantasies, but you need enough real-world experience to know where this differs from reality. Even if these kinds of ideas aren't learned overtly, they still could color a person's thinking if exposed to them enough in formative years.

Re:A step in the right direction.

[fyngyrz]

This additional punishment helps remind the felon that they made a choice, and choices have consequences.

Mostly what it reminds the felon of is that he is a criminal, there is no going back, he has little to no hope in legitimate society in terms of job or rights, and so said felon will be best rewarded by honing skills that are outside legitimate society. In other words, one way or another, making you and yours a target for crime. For example, if he wants a gun, he has to steal yours. If he wants to live at a higher standard than the street, he needs to rob you. If he wants diamonds for his girlfriend, your wife's are easier to get than those in a jewelry store, and stealing those from a jewelry store are still easier than buying them. Unless he steals your money, of course. Voting? No, he cannot affect society that way - presuming he ever could. Insurance costs are higher for him, assuming he can even get insured. But he can't get a good job. He can get your money. Or if not, he can sell your daughter. People will do anything to survive; especially if they're pissed off at the people they're doing that "anything" to.

Infinite punishment in the realm of a free person's rights and reputation is self-defeating for society. You might like the idea, but you really won't like the results when they get around to finding you. And the more people from whom we take these abilities, the more likely you and yours are to be victims. We're creating a broad underclass with a very specific set of skills and giving them a very good reason to resent the rest of us.

Either adjust the punishment so that criminals who commit the crime at hand must remain in prison for a longer amount of time if you're not satisfied with the current punishment, or leave it the same if you are, but either way, when you release them from imprisonment say they've paid their dues. Don't mix public life with punishment. It is, in the final analysis, harmful to society at all levels.

The same problem applies to prison conditions. They have to reach minimum standards of humanity. No rapes. No beatings. No exposure to STDs. A chance to improve one's self. Otherwise, when you release these people, you have been effectively beating the wasp's nest with a broom and you really shouldn't be surprised when the first thing that happens is they jam their stinger right into your tender parts. And you know what? After they mug you and kill your spouse, there's no fixing it. And just as you want to tell those felons your ideas about post-prison punishment "helps remind the felon that they made a choice, and choices have consequences", I would simply say the same to you. You made a choice to abuse these people far beyond what is reasonable for society's sake, and now the consequences have come home to roost. maybe next time, you'll be smarter. Because for you, there is nowhere to turn.

Re:A step in the right direction.

[fyngyrz]

Lending, housing, employment, education, clearance, (lack of) privacy, forfeiture of rights, mandatory registration, classing and suppression of political power.

There's a full array of law out there to make sure these people remain as criminal as possible in their behavior once released. Don't you worry about that. No, sir. And they'll stay away from you out of pure respect. Sure they will.

bout time

[Anonymous Coward]

Its about time that courts are finally seeing that our personal liberties are more important than fascist legislation that only appears to protect us and/or our children. Lets hope more are to follow.

Awesome

[arootbeer]

This is a Good Thing®. I'm so tired of hearing about how people aren't being responsible enough, so we need to remove those responsibilities from them. Seems kinda counterintuitive to me.

Community standards are not a good way to police a country that promises liberty and justice for all.

Quote FTA

[RingDev]

"It is not reasonable for the government to expect all parents to shoulder the burden to cut off every possible source of adult content for their children, rather than the government's addressing the problem at its source," a government attorney, Peter D. Keisler, argued in a post-trial brief.

Mr. Keisler then pointed at a child in the back of the the court playing a PSP and continued, "I mean, it's not like I have time to watch this brat."

-Rick

A lot has to change to make parents responsible

[MikeRT]

And just how many families are going to give up that unnecessary second income? *crickets chirping* I thought so.

I've seen a lot of people of both sexes talk the talk, but then not even walk at all when it's time to walk the walk.

Parental responsibility includes a recognition that your needs aren't important compared to your family's. You like your job, but don't need it to support your kids? You have a moral obligation to quit if it is getting in the way at all of being a parent.

But we can't say that today because that's "sexist" and "backward." Funny how well "modernity" seems to be working out for families. Divorce rates through the roof, kids screwed up right and left, but hey, let's ignore all of that and focus on abstract ideas that make us feel good, right?

Re:A lot has to change to make parents responsible

[realmolo]

While I agree with you in principle, you seem to be confused about the "unnecessary second income".

For a LOT of families, that second income is ABSOLUTELY NECESSARY. Mortgage payments are higher than they've ever been. Gas prices are higher than they've ever been. Work for a company that doesn't provide insurance? Insurance prices are ASTRONOMICALLY high.

Throw a couple of kids into the mix, and anyone at or below the "lower-middle-class" income bracket is struggling, big-time.

Yes, a lot of those families probably don't manage their money particularly well. But even if they did, they probably wouldn't be saving much. They'd still live paycheck-to-paycheck, they just wouldn't be going into debt every month to pay bills.

Re:A lot has to change to make parents responsible

[Sloppy]

Throw a couple of kids into the mix, and anyone at or below the "lower-middle-class" income bracket is struggling, big-time.

I just wish we could figure who is forcing people to have kids.

Re:A lot has to change to make parents responsible

[Shadowlore]

For a LOT of families, that second income is ABSOLUTELY NECESSARY. Mortgage payments are higher than they've ever been. Gas prices are higher than they've ever been. Work for a company that doesn't provide insurance? Insurance prices are ASTRONOMICALLY high.

Wages are higher then they have ever been, and more unnecessary luxuries are deemed as "necessary" than ever before. Blah blah blah. How about using real data? Raw numbers are irrelevant. you need to compare the indices to get a real picture.

Yes, a lot of those families probably don't manage their money particularly well. But even if they did, they probably wouldn't be saving much. They'd still live paycheck-to-paycheck, they just wouldn't be going into debt every month to pay bills.

You are so wrong and your assertion is a prime example of what is wrong. Congratulations you are perpetuating the problem.

Fact is most people, including families, can save a lot of money by paying attention and separating needs from wants, then taking a hard look. For example, take the young couple who become parents. What is the "mainstream" route for them? both are to work so they can have two cars, cable or satellite, plenty of toys for the grown ups, buy formula and diapers. But what really happens? What is really needed? First, the secondary income (hers or his, usually hers) is dwindled away by the cost of childcare and additional taxes. For most people I've dealt with the net "loss" in income from mom staying home is very minor, and more than a third see a net increase in monthly cash flow. That job mom has making 1000/month is usually more like 150 after taking into account the cost of having the job such as transportation (including a second car and the accompanying payments and insurance), childcare, etc..

Next we turn to the "cost of the child" beyond babysitting. Let us start with diapering. Most people lament the high cost of disposables. And rightly so. Disposable diapers are expensive as hell. Cloth diapers and a washing machine are much cheaper. Now I know many of you are having this image of a sheet of fabric held together by "safety pins". This is not the state of cloth diapering today, nor has it been for a decade. Today's cloth diapers are actually easier than disposables to use. A simple "pickle bucket" setup and a good washing machine will ensure that you don't have this stench about the house. If that isn't enough, the cloth diapered children are less cranky due to less irritation, and healthier due to not having chemicals applied to their nether regions that have been banned from feminine hygiene products for toxicity reasons. Using cloth diapers for the first year alone will save over two thousand dollars on average - including the cost of washing them.

Now we turn to the other high cost of young children: formula. Again, by taking the natural route you can save thousands. In addition the children are healthier and happier (by not being as cranky and irritable). Breastfeeding is also very convenient for the parents as well. And while on this subject news flash: a separate nursery for the new baby with beds, changing tables, etc. is also entirely unnecessary. Another several thousand dollars you don't need to spend. Baby should sleep with mom and dad for the first year or so. Don't worry dad, if mom is breastfeeding you'll still sleep well -usually better even.

I've done the mainstream route as well as the route listed above. I can personally vouch for over 5500 in savings for the above route over the "standard" of baby getting room with all manner of furniture, bottles, formula, disposable diapers, etc.. For one child, first year, not counting the unnecessary daily childcare costs. Yet all this is considered "absolutely necessary" today, and it isn't. Buying cotton clothing for your young children (birth through at least 3-4) instead of the more expensive polyester clothing will keep you from spending on "fad" clothing that is really unnecessary. honestly, your 6 month old doesn't care what

Re:Props

[vidarh]

You completely miss the point: Google did not fight COPA - they fought a subpoena asking them to hand over search data that the DOJ wanted to use to try to find examples of how "innocent" searches would return porn, only. Since the government got that data from the other targets, and got some data from Google too, Google's stand on the matter had little to no effect on the overall case.

Instead of fawning over Google, thank Salon.com and the other sites that sued, and ACLU for helping them.

Good by to a crud law.

[Anon-Admin]

As I read the article, the following jumped out at me.

"The Web sites that challenged the law said fear of prosecution might lead them to shut down or move their operations offshore, beyond the reach of the U.S. law."

Move their operations offshore?? We see how that worked for the casinos, They will get you when changing plains. :

How about move it offshore, Move out of the country, and NEVER set foot on US soil again! A hard thing to do in these times. Next you know the US will divert plains and instruct them to land on US soil, just to arrest some one.

Oh well, welcome to the Land of the Free and home of the Brave....

Please note that the above statement predates the current laws restricting your freedom of speech, Freedom of the press and freedom to assemble(1). The restrictions on gun ownership(2), The no-knock warrants (4), Holding people with out a trial outside of the country (5,6), Setting bail above the amount a person can make in there lifetime (7), and the loss of amendments 9 and 10 after the civil war. But you are free to excersize you 3rd amendment right! "Amendment #3 No soldier shall, in time of peace be quartered in any house, without the consent of the owner, nor in time of war, but in a manner to be prescribed by law."

Oh, and as for the Brave part. You can not be brave and defend your self with deadly force unless you have first tried to run away and hide. If there is no where to run, then you can be brave and defend your self.

I am all for a constitutional Tea party to show that the Americans have not lost the spirit of what was started, Just this time we should sink cigarette trucks! The Tax on them is through the roof! The government makes more from a pack of cigarettes than the cigarette companies do!

Ok, I am going to put away my soap box and get back to work.

Re:Good by to a crud law.

[Intron]

Before the US starts diverting or changing plains, it will need an environmental impact statement.

Re:Good by to a crud law.

[pipatron]

Dude, it's Snakes on a Plane , not Snakes on a Plain

Old quote

[theonetruekeebler]

That quote about First Amendment rights being "chipped away", is from Reed's opinion in ACLU v. Reno, 31 F. Supp. 2d 473, issued in 1999.

"With age"

[fang2415]

First Amendment protections, which they will with age inherit fully

Oh, that's right. I forgot about that part of the First Amendment that says that the protections it guarantees are limited to people above a certain age. Can somebody remind me exactly which age group of people it is to whom the Bill of Rights doesn't apply?

Goodbye mod points, but I feel too strongly about this to keep my trap shut...