Vonage Barred From Using Verizon VoIP Patents

thefiremonk writes "Bloomberg reports that U.S. District Judge Claude Hilton has issued a permanent injunction against Vonage. The goal: to stop allowing customers to make calls to standard phone lines. 'U.S. District Judge Claude Hilton approved Verizon's request for a block today in Alexandria, Virginia. Hilton said he won't sign the order before a hearing in two weeks on Vonage's request for a stay. A jury found March 8 that Vonage infringed three patents and should pay Verizon $58 million.' Does this spell doom for the already troubled Vonage? "

Comments

So Much For Customer Service

[phinsxiii]

Once again Big Business wins and the customer get screwed.


Isn't Democracy wonderful?

:)

Re:So Much For Customer Service

[phinsxiii]

Really?

What about the Billions of taxpayer dollars that the Bells received in the 90s to upgrade the infrastructure that they still haven't halfway finished? You remember fast access to every doorstep? Well that has only turned out to be limited to major metropolitan areas. I still can only get fast access to my doorstep through my cable company. Bellsouth has yet to provide DSL, and I live in a fairly large city.

No. This is pure greed. Vonage forced the Bells to reduce their pricing before they were ready to compete, so Verizon is just going to sue Vonage out of existence. Vonage was already in dire straits. They will not survive this legal battle and that is what the Bells wanted.

The Bells do have a right to make a profit, but not at the expense of the customer.

Re:So Much For Customer Service

[don_bear_wilkinson]

[begin quote]
No. This is pure greed. Vonage forced the Bells to reduce their pricing before they were ready to compete, so Verizon is just going to sue Vonage out of existence. Vonage was already in dire straits. They will not survive this legal battle and that is what the Bells wanted.

The Bells do have a right to make a profit, but not at the expense of the customer.
[end quote]

Believe me, I am NOT a fan of greed. I HATE it, from deep in my heart. I honestly and passionately believe greed is the root of all evil. Not from some religious dogma, from observation of human life around me.

That said, I think you are flat out wrong. It is not greed to;

1) want to make a fair return on your costs/investments
2) want to be paid for use of your infrastructure
3) want to make enough profits to repay investors, fund research, etc.
4) want to compete on a level playing field.

If Vonage "stole" or cheated to make it possible to force pricing (artificially) to a level that Vonage can't compete with, then they have to fight that and protect themselves. That's not evil greed, that's trying to get rid of an unfair cheat.

I think there's a bunch of bullshit and silliness with IP and patent laws, and the whole system is both broken at it's roots and being abused and misused daily, but cheating is cheating.

Lastly, you need to get over this idea that all that matters is what benefits you^H^H^H the Customer. Just because someone can come up with a way to give you something that you want for less money does not justify any and all means.

Re:So Much For Customer Service

[dgatwood]

How do you steal something that is nothing more than the IP equivalent of what HAM operators have been doing for decades? It's just a simple medium change, same as any other medium change. The fact that Verizon was able to get a patent on such a breathtakingly obvious thing is appalling, and the fact that the patent was upheld, triply so. It is a completely obvious extension of something that has been done for many, many, many years. Hell, I seem to recall computer modems that could be adapted to do this sort of thing back in the 80s.

The fact is that this is just the old school telephone industry using lawsuits to protect their obsolete business practices and try to mask the fact that they've been charging line switching rates for packet switching long distance service for two decades. Verizon deserves to get their asses handed to them, and if Vonage is going to go under, it is the responsibility of other VoIP providers to prop them up so that they can continue this fight, for if it is settled in Verizon's favor, it will decimate the VoIP industry.

Either way, screw Verizon. Long distance communication is what video chat services are for, and they don't cost anything, unlike VoIP. I don't remember the last time I used a landline telephone regularly, VoIP or otherwise. Even VoIP is too expensive for what they actually provide. :-)

Yet another reason for patent reform

[Overzeetop]

Actually, it's this kind of patent use (abuse) - restraint of trade - that should be forbidden. It should be prevented becuase of the monopoly and incumbent carrier status that Verizon holds on the wired telephone market.

They are not using the patents to forward the condition of man, but rather to choke off a competitor in an estabilshed industry with an (effectively) insurmountable cost of entry using traditional methods.

It's no surprise that Verizon is one of the top ten hated corporations.

Re:Yet another reason for patent reform

[operagost]

They are not using the patents to forward the condition of man

That's not the purpose of patents. Patents are used to encourage invention by limiting the ability of others to copy the inventor's work during a limited period.

Re:Yet another reason for patent reform

[Cerebus]

Which part of "To promote the progress of science and useful arts" is unclear?

Re:Yet another reason for patent reform

[Anonymous Coward]

i don't know where you've been but verizon has done one hell of a lot more in "the progress of science and useful arts" than vonage ever has. or are you saying that royalty free use of patents is ok as long as the company that's getting ripped off is bigger? or even worse yet, are you claiming that vonage has done something innovative outside of the house that verizon has already built?

i know if this were microsoft up to the same game as vonage we'd be hearing howls of how "it's not innovation, they're just robbing some other company that already laid the groundwork".

Re:Yet another reason for patent reform

[PPH]

That's not the purpose of patents. Patents are used to encourage invention by limiting the ability of others to copy the inventor's work during a limited period.

Exactly. That's the problem with patents as currently implemented. The US Constitution empowers Congress:

To promote the Progress of Science and useful Arts, by securing for limited
Times to Authors and Inventors the exclusive Right to their respective
Writings and Discoveries;

So the exclusive rights granted to authors and inventors is subject to their furthering the progress of science and the useful arts. If an inventor patents something and then sits on the patent, it should be revoked. I think inventors should be required to demonstrate this promotion of progress by either building something or licensing the patent.

Juries

[morgan_greywolf]

This is what happens when you have technical cases decided by 12 ordinary citizens too stupid to get out of jury duty. It's why IBM doesn't want the SCO case to go to trial without a finding from the judge that it didn't infringe on any of SCO's copyrights. (If the summary judgement is granted and it does go to trial, the jury has to proceed on the idea that IBM hasn't violated any of SCO's IP.)

Verizon is just suing to keep Vonage -- and every other company offering a similar service -- from making it irrelevant in the home phone market. Which is exactly what's happening.

Re:Juries

[operagost]

This is what happens when you have technical cases decided by 12 ordinary citizens too stupid to get out of jury duty.

I'm with you, dude. Voting is stupid too! Look at those idiots standing in line on election day! Better off playing WoW.

Re:Juries

[Anonymous Coward]

And that is the problem. The smart people get out of it and thus there is no justice. People bitch and bitch about juries doing dumb things, and then when they get called? They will do ANYTHING to get out of it rather than do a better job.

anyone have a link with some actual meat?

[drinkypoo]

Like, for example, the patents being infringed?

Re:If Not Vonage, Then Who?

[Anonymous Coward]

AT&T CallVantage?

It would seem that AT&T would by their very nature be licensed to use these patents under some cross-licensing deal that surely exists between Verizon and AT&T. If not, I'm sure AT&T has enough patents that should Verizon get uppity and go after them AT&T could cause them sufficient pain to work out a deal.

I've had CallVantage service for over two years, and despite the annoying changes brought about by E911, my call quality has always been excellent and I am generally a happy customer. My only complaints: e911 hassles and the devices are locked down so you can't use them with other providers or asterisk, though I've seen some information on the net about how to unlock them.

I'm using the linksys TA without wireless. Avoid the wireless TA - it's crap! The wired only version is great. Plus it stacks neatly between the linksys cable modem and my wrt54g. :) I've heard bad things about the dlink ta (don't even know if they still make them - i haven't looked at hardware options for 2 years and I have a spare linksys TA in case mine ever dies).

I haven't looked into connecting asterisk to them yet, but I'm sure it's not "supported." One day I'll have time to look into it.

Re:If Not Vonage, Then Who?

[wizbit]

I have Vonage, and this story obviously worries me quite a bit. But your point about Verizon misses the mark for its other services - Verizon are also providing competition in other areas (eg, cable TV). Comcast is the undisputed king in my area (Philly) but I am seriously considering switching to Verizon's TV service after seeing their lineup and pricing. Not to mention, I don't have many options here (no view of the southern sky = no satellite TV) and I'm tired of giving my money to the local monopoly - on TV, at least. But I agree in principle that this kind of anticompetitive behavior really doesn't serve anyone, and it's yet another example of patent law abuse that screws the average consumer.

Aren't all?

[lenne]

Aren't all voip companies doing more or less the same?

How many ways are there to connect voip to pstn?

Leif

Just a thought

[Cauchy]

Have any of us bothered to look at the patents? Are they good and valid? Did Verizon truly invent something, and thus, perhaps, because of their investment, deserve some level of protection against theft in exchange for them contributing to the overall body of knowledge? Perhaps these patents are bogus, but I haven't seen anyone in this discussion yet attack Verizon/the PTO on the merits of the patents.

I agree that the patent system is broken, but, as I've said before, patents are more important to the little guy than the big guy. Without patents, if I as a little person invent something, there is nothing to stop Microsoft or IBM or some GE from copying my invention. Then, it just becomes a matter of who can out market who, and the little guy will lose this battle.