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X Prize For a 100-MPG Car

Heinen writes in about the X Prize Foundation, which spurred innovation by offering US $10 million for the first privately built spacecraft. The Foundation now plans to offer millions for the first practical car that increases mileage five-fold. The specs for the competition are out in draft form amd call for cars in two categories that are capable of 100 MPG in tests to be run in 2009. The categories are: 4-passenger/4-wheel; and 2-passenger/unspecified wheels. The cars must be manufacturable, not "science projects. The prize is expected to top $10 million. The X Prize Foundation says that so far it has received more than 1,000 inquiries from possible competitors.

24 of 741 comments (clear)

  1. Key concepts by Chairboy · · Score: 4, Insightful

    It's possible to make cars that are 'manufacturable' that meet this, the real problem will be making cars that are manufacturable... AND sellable.

    Is there a market for super efficient cars that look like tampons with wheels?

  2. Changing percpetion by EmbeddedJanitor · · Score: 5, Insightful
    There are a few things that probably need to change to make this work. First off, there's a macho intertwining of cars with manhood, power etc. Many cars can easily beat a Prius hybrid on fuel economy, but not high performance cars.

    To get good fuel economy probably needs a mindshift away from SUVs and Hummers towards smaller 1300cc or smaller cars.

    The "look" of cars is pretty much fashion driven, dictated by the car manufacturers to promote consumption. This year it's round headlights, next year square; boxy Hummer look one year, curved Porche look the next; big grill, then small.

    Car manufacturers keep advertising more power, size etc (10% more power than last year's model, 5% more space...). How is it that they never advertise reduced consumption (well they might, but only if it does not compromise power, size etc)..

    People really need to see cars as transport. Perhaps then they will start to think in terms of efficiency etc.

    --
    Engineering is the art of compromise.
    1. Re:Changing percpetion by Kadin2048 · · Score: 5, Insightful

      People really need to see cars as transport. Perhaps then they will start to think in terms of efficiency etc.

      People really need to start seeing clothes as something to prevent their reproductive apparatus from freezing. Perhaps then they will start to think in terms of the material and energy required.

      In other words: good freaking luck. Cars have been more than transportation for as long as there have been cars. Before there were cars, people had carriages and teams of horses, the perceived quality of which was a sign of wealth, status, and taste. It's been like this probably since the dawn of humanity, with various things.

      People will accept some sort of standardized, generic "people transporter" in lieu of a car, right after they all go to wearing standardized jumpsuits with built-in underwear, because hey, its only real function is to keep you warm, right? Who cares what it looks like. Ain't gonna happen.

      --
      "Ladies and gentlemen, my killbot features Lotus Notes and a machine gun. It is the finest available."
    2. Re:Changing percpetion by Kadin2048 · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Oddly enough, however, one of the reasons that many people use public transportation is because of the traffic. (This is definitely true where I am, outside DC, and I suspect it's true elsewhere.) Other people do it because parking a car in a city is prohibitively expensive...because of the high demand for what spaces are available.

      What does this show? It shows that given the choice, people would probably take cars, but because more people want to do that than there is space on the road or parking spaces available, those without large amounts of surplus time and money are pushed onto mass transit.

      Sure, there are individual exceptions to this. I'm sure there are a few people riding Metro in the morning who would still ride it, even if I-66 wasn't HOV-only and the Beltway wasn't a veritable parking lot. But they're in the minority; given the option of personal vehicles or mass transit, people overwhelmingly choose personal vehicles -- as evidenced by the utter failure of public transportation to flourish in the U.S. outside zones where driving a car is particularly obnoxious or expensive.

      But to get back on point, this is all a bit academic: people who don't own or use cars, for whatever reason, obviously don't participate in the cars-as-expressions-of-something-besides-a-desire- for-transportation game. However, as evidenced by the fact that they aren't wearing identical jumpsuits and eating mush, I don't think there's anything fundamentally different about them, and if they did own cars, they would probably be just as desirous of one that externalized the image that they're trying to present to the world -- in the same way that the clothes/briefcase/watch/cellphone/etc. that they wear on the Metro does.

      --
      "Ladies and gentlemen, my killbot features Lotus Notes and a machine gun. It is the finest available."
    3. Re:Changing percpetion by aztracker1 · · Score: 4, Insightful

      I think a larger issue is not everyone likes to live in a city large enough to justify public transport as a need. I lived in the Phoenix area most of my life, and to this day, public transport (busses) suck. The reasons why are many, including that they are stuck with the overall traffic patterns. Phoenix, LA and other cities in the southwest aren't densly packed enough for subway systems to work very well. From one end of a Phoenix suburb (say El Mirage) to the other side (say Apache Junction) is well over 50 miles in distance for travel... Take into account the sheer square miles to cover in spread out communities, and the cost of a subway, or other mass transit system (light rail) per citizen become prohibitively expensive.

      Part of getting a working mass transit system requires a relatively dense population. I personally don't like living in a densely populated area... In fact I moved to a more rural area simply because I didn't like how crowded even Phoenix was starting to get. I still have to go into Phoenix about once every other week. I am able to work from home, and don't have to drive much as it is. However what I have said still holds true. Most people don't live in areas where public transport *CAN* work without being prohibitively expensive. In the Phoenix area, I have used buses before, and it worked okay, though it takes about an hour to get from an outer suburb into the central Phoenix area. That isn't so bad, as the spacing of buses are about an hour apart, if you just missed a bus, that's two hours of commute time each way, for what would otherwise be a 20-30 minute drive... Tax breaks for businesses with more than 75% of their employees on a 4x10, or 3x12 work week would probably do a lot more though.

      --
      Michael J. Ryan - tracker1.info
    4. Re:Changing percpetion by Virtual_Raider · · Score: 5, Insightful

      I beg to differ. I live in Australia, you would hardly call that a densely populated area, and while the natives complain somewhat about their transport system when compared to Europe, it is awesome. And they do have train stations and light train that does connect very remote cities because like they say here, its a bloody long way. To absolutely anywhere. I agree that not everybody wants to live in a big city, that happens to be the case here. So they build excellent and comprehensive train systems to connect everything. And they have clean gas-powered buses that travel the freeways too, that's how I commute to work. I don't know where you pull that prohibitively expensive claim but if these guys can do it with their dollar being eighty cents US, I adventure the hypothesis that it can in fact be done. It is, again, a matter of perception. Aussies believe they want this, so they go ahead and build it. People from the US believe they want cars, so they build automobile-centric infrastructure.

      I do not say one is better than other (although I do like Oz better in that regard), I just say that in order to do things differently you have to see things differently. One thinks one wants a muscle car that looks like so-and-so because one has been told that. No, wait, hear me out. You have been told you want that car, because the companies that produce it invest millions of dollars in advertisement. There is marketing research devoted to finding a way of presenting us a product in a way we will find attractive so we ultimately buy it. If the whole industry shifted overnight to emphasizing fuel economy and advertised that, you wouldn't change your mind overnight with them. But eventually you would.

      Just think it through. Why do you like, say, a 300ZX? Let's say its because its "cool", and "powerful" and "sleek" and "modern". But how did you come to attach those characteristics to that particular model? Because the industry strives to portray it in a particular way. You will read about it in magazines that those corporations sponsor through advertising. You will see rich and beautiful people paid to drive them. And they will be young and active and will display all sorts of characteristics that an everyday person associates to success and desirability. And they will use clever sound design, clever wording, whatever. The point of this rant is to say that society influences an individual's tastes. Some more than others, and one big way the general public knows something is desirable is because they way they are told it is. If car manufacturers decide to start pushing a new paradigm, if they chose well their target audience, they will make it happen. Not because they have powerful mind-control machines but because we are social animals and very easily hearded. Or I could just be full of hot air, your take =)

      --
      +Raider of the lost BBS
  3. Re:Better X-Prize by jandrese · · Score: 3, Insightful

    SpaceShip Two is gearing up for private space flight as we speak. It has been less than three years since the X-Prize. Personal spaceflight is not an easy process, you shouldn't expect it to be commonplace tomorrow.

    --

    I read the internet for the articles.
  4. sorry to troll, but... by TheSHAD0W · · Score: 5, Insightful

    IMO this contest is looking for a milestone in a direction we may not want to go. On the surface it may seem worthy, but new technologies may be making internal combustion engines obsolete in the next decade, and I can't really tell whether the contest rules will take these advances into account. How would one judge a vehicle powered by a hypercapacitor, or by compressed air? You're comparing apples to oranges by merely judging the equivalent energy used to power the vehicle; the ultimate cost of stored electricity may be a lot lower per joule than that in refined petroleum, or it could be higher. How does one judge the total carbon emissions for that electricity? Was it generated by a coal-burning plant, or by nuclear? Or wind, or sea?

  5. Re:Better X-Prize by Harmonious+Botch · · Score: 5, Insightful

    The problem with the X-prize was that all the money was in first place. When Space Ship One won it, there was no financial incentive for the others to keep going. ( I've seen the same thing in chess tournaments - the lower prizes are significant enough to keep people from dropping out )
    It should have been something like 1st = 10 mil, 2nd = 5 mil, 3rd = 2.5 mil, 4th = 1.5 mil, 5th = 1 mil. Yes, it costs twice as much, but it gets more than twice the benefit: instead of one company producing results, three or four, maybe five do.

  6. Light != dangerous by EmbeddedJanitor · · Score: 4, Insightful
    Light cars are not necessarily dangerous. They get to be dangerous if smug dickheads in Hummers think they are safe so they don't pay attention and squish smaller cars or people driving them are silly. Get the Hummers off the road.

    Why do you need huge acceleration and top speed? You're using your car for transport, not racing. There's no need for a car that goes more than 70mph. There's no need for a car that burns rubber.

    I use a very old technology 1300cc car (probably equivalent in power to a more modern 1000 cc engine car). It has sufficient guts for my purposes, even when carrying 4 people + a load.

    --
    Engineering is the art of compromise.
    1. Re:Light != dangerous by Kadin2048 · · Score: 4, Insightful

      There's no need for a car that goes more than 70mph.

      Regardless of what those pretty signs say on the side of the road, there are lots of places where the prevailing speeds are significantly higher than 70MPH.

      And out in those big, flat states (you know, the ones that the pretentious Manhattanites like to call 'flyover states') there are lots of sections of highway where the posted limit is 75 and I suspect most traffic moves upwards of 80.

      More generally, you're engaging in what I call the "burlap sack" argument. I could take the same line of thinking that you're going down, and apply it to clothing instead of cars, and come to the conclusion that everyone should stop putting on all these fancy geegaws and just dress in good old burlap sacks, because really, you're just buying a little warmth and weather-resistance. Spray some water repellent on that, and you're good to go.

      Cars are as much about 'transportation' as clothes are about staying warm; sure, that's one reason why they exist, but once you've got that function checked off, that's when the real differentiation starts.

      --
      "Ladies and gentlemen, my killbot features Lotus Notes and a machine gun. It is the finest available."
    2. Re:Light != dangerous by tapehands · · Score: 4, Insightful

      You'd be correct with the whole "burlap sack" argument except for one thing - it's not illegal (well..obviously within reason) to dress however you wish. If you want to wear nipple pasties, then so be it.

      It is illegal to speed. That in and of itself isn't news to anyone...we've been getting speeding tickets for years.

      There is something you need to consider, though. The highest speed limit I've ever heard of in the USA is 75mph. You know that car manufacturers know this. You also can safely assume that the speed limit isn't going to increase any time soon, due to a multitude of safety and environmental reasons. Why, then, do car manufacturers deem it necessary to make it so that every car they produce can AT LEAST hit 90mph, if not more?

      For example...I've got what I would consider an econobox ('04 Hyundai Elantra hatchback with a manual transmission) - it's a cheap car that gets me from point A to point B with relatively good gas mileage. Why would I want to go fast in this car? How fast could I go if I did want to go fast?
      The answer to the first question is because I love the feeling of going fast. It's a huge rush when I can accelerate quickly, and I can maintain a high speed.
      For the second question? My little econobox can hit about 123mph.

      There's no need for this to be the standard in cars distributed to the general public. If the car manufacturers want to make cars that go over 100mph, keep it to the realm of muscle cars that manage to get 15mpg. I'd much rather have an econobox that has a top speed of 80mph (just so I can accelerate around the people not actually driving the speed limit), gets 100mpg, and is relatively cheap to purchase and maintain. And if that becomes the standard from all manufacturers, as opposed to the beefy cars we have, then people will just have to deal with it, or pay the extra money for a car with some kick - which is completely fine by me.

    3. Re:Light != dangerous by Shihar · · Score: 3, Insightful

      The reason why cars can go faster then 65 is because people like me wouldn't buy one that can't. The simple fact is that the government fucking sucks at regulating the roads. They have not changed the speed limit in decades, yet cars today are significantly safer beasts then they were when the 65 MPH rule was put in place. No one wants to touch the speed limits. Federal government doesn't want to change the speed limits because they are incompetent. State officials don't want to change them because they fund the police force via speeding tickets. The net result is that you have a stupid government regulation that won't die.

      Despite what the government says, the speed limit on Mass Pike is NOT 65 MPH unless you want to get rear-ended. It is more like 85. The speed limit on rt 88 in upstate New York is indeed 65, but only because the local cops line this flat, straight, and empty highway nabbing anyone doing more then 5 over in an effort to fund their local station. The speed limit on the Kennedy in Chicago is well, it is always like 5 MPH regardless of what the government says. I hate that god damn slow moving parking lot.

      My point is this. If you tried to sell me a car that can't break 65 or 75, I (and most other Americans who don't live in a city) wouldn't buy it. Most Americans regularly ignore the post speed limits that seem to all magically top at 65 regardless of the actual circumstances of the road. Thankfully, car companies make cars to satisfy real needs, unlike the government which doesn't need to change its attitude until there people are suddenly getting elected on the single issue of speed limits, which even for American voters is a pretty unlikely act of stupidity.

    4. Re:Light != dangerous by maxume · · Score: 5, Insightful

      When you give a car with an internal combustion engine 'reasonable' acceleration from 50 to 70 mph, you pretty much give it the ability to go 100 mph. If it has a gear that is efficient at 60, it will be able to go 90. You could add gears instead of displacement, but that's more expensive, only works to a point and makes the car more likely to breakdown.

      --
      Nerd rage is the funniest rage.
  7. We'll fix that right after we get cold fusion. by Kadin2048 · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Essentially we're getting 100mph for the transport, but the wanger extension is what is giving us 20mpg. People talk about safety etc, but really these are hedges against speaking the real reason; the perception that Real Men drive Hummers with gunracks, only faggots drive 1100cc Noddy cars.

    I'm not quite buying your simplification, though, either: how do you account for the 59% of car purchases made by women? What's their issue, penis envy?

    While it may be popular these days to try and pin all the country's (if not the entire world's) ills on a bunch of redneck, white, male, gun-toting, Hummer-driving, "flyover state"-ers, I don't think that reality backs that up. Your typical car buyer is female, and is looking for safety, performance (acceleration and handling, which in many people's minds is intertwined with safety), style, and somewhere significantly further down the list, environmental impact and fuel economy. While the guy driving a Hummer may make a nice target for ridicule, there aren't really enough of them to really matter compared to the legions of people driving mid-market cars which really don't have much in the way of a "penis factor" going for them.

    Gas just doesn't cost enough for people to care more about mileage than about style. And to be honest, even if it went up by an order of magnitude, while you'd see cars become more efficient, I doubt that you'd really see people changing their fundamental views very much. We're not really talking about anything that's developed recently here; the same forces are at work today with cars, that led people a century or two ago to buy matched sets of horses to pull their coach. Two thousand years ago, there were probably Romans ogling each others' chariots -- when you have something that represents such a large investment (as personal transportation devices almost always are, regardless of the era), they almost automatically become status symbols.

    If we ever get cars that on average get 100MPG, it'll be because the cost of fuel is $10 a gallon; even then, there will still be Hyundais and BMWs, econo-boxes and performance machines, minivans and maybe even a Hummer or two, because that's what people will want and have always wanted.

    Given the choice between trying to change a deep-rooted social behavior and solving the technical problem of making a minivan/Hummer/whatever that gets 100MPG, I'd say the technical problem is far more feasible to solve.

    --
    "Ladies and gentlemen, my killbot features Lotus Notes and a machine gun. It is the finest available."
    1. Re:We'll fix that right after we get cold fusion. by drgonzo59 · · Score: 4, Insightful
      Given the choice between trying to change a deep-rooted social behavior and solving the technical problem of making a minivan/Hummer/whatever that gets 100MPG, I'd say the technical problem is far more feasible to solve.


      You would be surprized how easily the "unwashed masses" can be manipulated by the media and marketing. Most people my age ( genY'ers) want smaller cars that are cute and fuel efficient. For many years American car companies have pushed "Bigger=more status=better" and everyone bought it, but some manufacturers have realized that they need to cater to the new generation since we'll be the ones making money and therefore buying the cars.

      For us they are pushing "Smaller+cuter=smarter=better" (and it must have an iPod plug somewhere!), at least that is the stereotype. But of course marketing is a two-way street. If any compeny invests enough into it, it will manage to change our perceptions. For example if Honda decided to sell us Pink Elephants on Wheels and spent a billion dollars in marketing, you can be sure that there will be a lot of people in this country how will just "have" to have a pink elephant on wheels.


      Plus I think there is always a tendency of the new generation to reject the values and mores of their parents, not for any reason, just 'cause, so they can be different. That should help those in marketing who want to cater to genY'ers. (If our parents wanted big cars, then we will necessarily want small ones; if they wanted dull colors, we'll probably want more exotic, brighter colors and so on...). Today many people my age get their first job, go shopping for cars and a lot of them look at Honda Fit and Toyota Yaris, at Scion, Chevy Aveo's etc. None of my friends ever said that they wanted to go buy an SUV, a minivan, a big-ass truck or a Hummer.


    2. Re:We'll fix that right after we get cold fusion. by jcnnghm · · Score: 4, Insightful

      That isn't the problem. Only an idiot would believe that everyone should live in apartments crammed together. Because something works for you, doesn't mean it does or should for anyone else.

      --
      You don't make the poor richer by making the rich poorer. - Winston Churchill
    3. Re:We'll fix that right after we get cold fusion. by toleraen · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Honestly, gas would have to cost much more than 7 dollars a gallon to get me to move that close to work. I pay $650 for an apartment roughly 30 minutes from work. That same apartment within a few minutes of work would cost around $1100. My average commute consumes ~1.5 gallons of gas which costs me about 4 dollars a day, or about $3.50 more than driving for a few minutes. I drive an average of 23 days a month to work, which costs ~$83 more than driving a few minutes to work. Since I usually car pool, that cuts that number in half.

      I realize there is wear and tear on the car to take into account, but we're talking gas usage here. Plus you could say that carpooling would negate the added cost. But by my (basic) calculations, gas would have to cost more than $13.50 per gallon to make the cost of living difference worth it. And frankly, that half an hour each way to/from work gives me the perfect amount of time to wake up with a cup of coffee, or release some post-work stress and crank the volume.

  8. Re:What about SAFETY? by Osty · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Lets face it, the reason why a lot of people are driving big SUV's and suffering with 20 MPG highway 15 MPG city is because of the marvelous 5 STAR safety rating these vehicles provide.

    Most SUVs, especially truck-based SUVs, are much less safe than normal passenger cars. A low center of gravity plus properly designed crumple zones to absorb energy will always fare better than a tall rigid design like an F150. Even better, smaller cars are more maneuverable, providing "active" safety (the ability to avoid an accident entirely) rather than "passive" safety (the ability to walk away from an accident). The only thing making SUVs "safer" than average passenger cars is that everybody bought into the BS that SUVs are "safer". It's become an arms race, and if you don't have a jacked up monster then you risk decapitation if a SUV hits you from the side.

    The roads are (in America) getting more crowded by the day, the law of tonnage rules and small guys get eaten alive in wrecks.

    Crowding has nothing to do with it. In fact, in a crowded situation a smaller care may be even safer because it gives you the ability to squeeze into smaller areas for avoidance that you wouldn't otherwise be able to.

    Is it really worth it to be driving around in a vehicle that gets 30, 40 or even a 100 MPG HWY if it gets compacted like a soda can if merely bumped?

    That's exactly the point. Cars crumple to absorb energy that would otherwise transfer into your internal organs. Your best bet is to learn how to drive and avoid such situations in the first place. If you can't handle that, you really shouldn't have a license in the first place.

  9. Re:Metric by Ihlosi · · Score: 3, Insightful
    Keep in mind that governments around the world mandate much higher fuel efficiency in autos than the US. Europe especially so.



    It's not mandates that make fuel efficiency a big selling point, it's the taxation of gasoline.


    And once the US government figures out that taxing gasoline would be a great way to pay for the war on terror ...

  10. How about diesel? by Joce640k · · Score: 5, Insightful

    One of the big problems is that Americans insist on high torque engines at low revs.

    Gasoline engines simply doesn't work that way. You end up with gas-guzzling five liter V8s.

    Diesel does work that way. It'll double your gas mileage with no noticeable difference in the car.

    --
    No sig today...
    1. Re:How about diesel? by Gr8Apes · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Doubtful on the diesel. Particulates in the emissions contribute far too much to smog and hurt air quality. We're already on the border line in many of our cities, and a large move to even those "cleaner" diesels would push us over the edge.

      --
      The cesspool just got a check and balance.
  11. Better cars are not the answer by rwa2 · · Score: 3, Insightful

    We need better designed cities, not better designed cars.

    Cars are certainly the most flexible way to get around. But we should not have to use them for our daily commute through rush hour traffic or even for running most common errands or to go out and play or dine out.

    The problem really is with the way we (esp. the US) design cities. Instead of spending money on public transit-oriented communities, it's much, much cheaper for the municipalities to just pave a stretch of concrete and let individual citizens pay for the cost, maintenance, and operation of personally-owned vehicles. On top of that, condo construction here is pretty lousy, whereas if single family home construction is lousy at least your immediate neighbors are farther away from the noise.

    Unfortunately, we don't really have a simple way to measure how much energy people can save in cities with alternative transit as opposed to people who live in cities where they have to drive even to the nearest postal mailbox.

    In the mean time, the exciting progress in the transportation field ought to be things like transit oriented design:
    http://www.transitorienteddevelopment.org/
    http://www.carfree.com/

    Progress in these areas of urban development will get us closer to constructing sustainable colonies in space than any improvement in individually run cars.

  12. Comment removed by account_deleted · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Comment removed based on user account deletion