Turkish Assembly Votes For Censoring of Web Sites

unity100 writes "CNN has some news about a recent development in Turkey where the Turkish assembly, totally out of line with Turkey's commitment to EU membership, has voted to have sites that 'insult to the founder of modern Turkey' censored from entire Turkish population. This, just about a month after the decision to censor YouTube was reached by the Turkish courts. 'On Thursday, lawmakers in the commission also debated whether the proposal should be widened to allow the Turkish Telecommunications Board to block access to any sites that question the principles of the Turkish secular system or the unity of the Turkish state -- a reference to Web sites with information on Kurdish rebels in Turkey.'"

Comments

What's wrong with Europe?

[daeg]

I know the US has some problems with free speech, but what the hell is wrong with Europe lately? For instance, Germany will soon be attempting to reintroduce legislation into the EU banning swastikas and Holocaust denial (Source: BBC). You can't have selective free speech!

People are getting confused. You should tolerate the idea of free speech; you don't have to like what people say, you don't even have to listen. It's the right to speak, not the right to be heard or listened to.

These laws, including the Turkish positions, would be like if the US suddenly enacted laws saying that no one can speak of the Confederacy in a positive light and made it illegal to say the Confederacy actually won. Everyone knows they didn't, but people still say it. Everyone with an IQ over 20 just laughs at them, though. I'd just laugh & ignore at anyone who denied the Holocaust -- you should too, Europe (Germany, Turkey, et all).

Surprisingly, at least in the Holocaust issue, England is one of the few countries that put up a fuss last time it came up (2005). The same England that's hell bent on monitoring every street corner. C'est bizarre.

Re:What's wrong with Europe?

[Talgrath]

Illegalizing the expression of these thoughts will do nothing more than feed the fire, increasing the number of individuals who think this way. To those who dislike the current state of their country, this just makes these groups seem more like freedom or resistance fighters than the foul upholders of the antithesis of freedom that they are. The way to stop this is to debate them, confront their ideals honestly and openly and show them to be the stupid bastards they are; to do anything less is not just the wrong way to go about things (you can't restrict freedoms in order to protect them) but will eventually lead to you losing the argument against such movements. I think people here understand quite well that such ideas are worrying, but this is the wrong way to combat them.

So my answer to your question "Think of it this way, do you think that someone who advocates the end of free speech as meritory of free speech benefits themselves?" is yes; the more you move to restrict their freedoms, the closer you get to becoming them yourself.

Re:What's wrong with Europe?

[kresa]

Incitement to hatred is not protected under the free speech in any democracy.

Freedoms are weighted against each other.

For example,
If I try to brainwash my children and try to incite them to kill you,
and there is a small but reasonable probability that you will get killed as a result, the protection of human life trumps the freedom of speech.

If it was only a matter of academic blabber on holocaust denial
and drawing swastikas in an art exhibition it would not be a problem.
However it is associated with rise in hate crimes.

And finally, I lived in both the US and Europe.
While the US melting pot more or less successfully creates a functioning
society which respects individual rights,
the European multiculturalism, only hides deep rooted hatreds.
For instance many Americans would be appalled at the way Gypsies are
treated - but Europeans are very good at hiding their dirty laundry while
lambasting the Americans for all the evils of the world.

Re:What's wrong with Europe?

[westlake]

but what the hell is wrong with Europe lately? For instance, Germany will soon be attempting to reintroduce legislation into the EU banning swastikas and Holocaust denial (Source: BBC). You can't have selective free speech!

Of course you can.

The meaning of "Free Speech" can't be understood outside its historical, social and legal context.

In the U.S. it begins with open political debate without governmental interference -- or, more narrowly, without prior censorship. That didn't mean you weren't answerable in court later for language that could be taken as slanderous or seditious.

The rules evolve over time and they are not the same in every society.

Re:What's wrong with Europe?

[Perseid]

You can stop people from speaking terrible things but you can't stop them from thinking terrible things. I, for one, would prefer to know who the bigots are.

Armenians!!!

[bstadil]

Yes Way cool to kill 900.000 Armenians, lest we forget. I would rather have a few extra mosques.

Not surprising, really

[Parallax Blue]

They already deny genocide against Armenians, and jail anyone who protests, etc. Compared to that, this is minor.

Another point to consider is that there is growing dissatisfaction with the idea of joining the EU. Basically Turkey has made major, major changes to the law and its government in an effort to get into the EU, but so far the process has been stalled by EU member states who are understandably wary (for a number of reasons) about letting Turkey in. Because of this, many Turkish citizens are now increasingly adopting a "kiss off" attitude towards EU membership and the EU itself. Perhaps this move is another sign of the frustration... a defiant gesture, if you will.

-PxB

i loe and support all terrorist

[fredouil]

Guys,

Europe has just different frame, we had a problem with nazi and see their followers are a danger that worth a bit of lmitation of free speach.

I dont think lot of people would be allow to praise the 911 terrorists in US, encourage killing americans and soldiers, spitting of the victims of 911.

but i can be wrong

Just try to set a website questioning

[Anonymous Coward]

american principles in america. The FBI will take it down quickly... For Turkeys, the Kurds are terrorists...

Turkey is the pinnacle of Islam.

[reporter]

Though Turkey is a secular state, the majority of Turks subscribe to Islam. Since Turkey is a democracy, the laws reflect the will of the Turks and, in particular, the Turkish Muslims.

We should respect the right of Turks to build their society in whatever way that they wish. The Turks are entitled to reject Western values, just as both the Chinese and the Indians have rejected Western values.

At the same time, we should terminate the current talks that will lead to Turkey becoming a member of the European Union (EU). We Westerners have every right to prohibit Turkey from becoming a member of the EU. The EU is a bastion of Western values, and we have a right to prevent those values from being contaminated by Turkish values or Islamic values.

The issue is not bigotry. The issue is respect. The Turks expect us to respect how they suppress human rights (by, for example, censoring web sites). We should respect them.

At the same time, they should respect our desire to maintain Western values. We should join Angela Merkel in blocking Turkey's becoming a member of the EU. We should condemn Washington for pressuring the EU into admitting Turkey.

The last 6 years has shown that Washington is incapable of formulating good foreign policy.

Re:Turkey is the pinnacle of Islam.

[Anonymous Coward]

I find it highly ironic you are bashing Turkey for being the pinnacle of Islam when the laws they are taking about are to protect a man who wanted to emulate the West as much as possible and lessen the influence of Islam in their government.

Your issue appears to be ignorance. The country of Turkey is imbued with Western values and a desire to emulate the West in many ways. Ever wonder why Turkey, especially Istanbul is referred to as a place where East meets West? Probably not, since you obviously don't know much about Turkey. Instead of bashing whatever has the first hint of Islam, do some research first.

Re:Turkey is the pinnacle of Islam.

[halivar]

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.

If there is so much as one Turk who chafes at the yolk of censorship, then they are wrong and we do not have to respect them (same goes for our own government, or any other form of majority-rule).

Of course, Thomas Jefferson doesn't go for much around here, any more, so take that as you will.

Re:Turkey is the pinnacle of Islam.

[WombatDeath]

the laws they are taking about are to protect a man who wanted to emulate the West as much as possible

One of those laws being that we in the west are free to criticise and ridicule individuals as we see fit. No doubt the man in question would be the first to insist that no law should be enacted to protect him from such criticism.

Re:Turkey is the pinnacle of Islam.

[alexjohnc3]

The issue is not bigotry. The issue is respect. The Turks expect us to respect how they suppress human rights (by, for example, censoring web sites). We should respect them.

You've got to be kidding me. For some reason I think the majority screwing over the minority and abusing their human rights isn't something that should be tolerated, much less respected. Human suffering is almost never acceptable and just because the majority of Turkey may not care about the rights of others who live in the country doesn't mean we shouldn't pressure Turkey into accepting "our Western values." If by "Western values" you mean respecting people's civil and human rights, then, yes, we should try to push those values on Turkey as much as possible.

Re:Turkey is the pinnacle of Islam.

[chill]

Close, but not cigar.

Thomas Jefferson, statesman that he was, signed off on the document that decreed slaves were not people, but property and would count only as 2/3rds of a person for the purposes of representation. Never mind that the slaves, not being people, weren't represented anyway.

Jefferson knew that the time was not yet right. Had the U.S. Constitution mandated the end of slavery and full rights for ex-slaves, the Republic would have fallen apart and the Revolution would have been for naught. However, the seeds were sewn for that phrase you quoted to come to fruition when the time was ripe. In the case of slavery, it was almost a century later.

The time is not right in Turkey, or many other nations, for full freedom of speech. Like it or not, there are some very heated passions in that part of the world. They are forcibly integrating peoples and ethnic groups who don't want to be integrated, and that will take time. Generations, maybe centuries, will pass but to see thru their development as a modern, peaceful, enlightened, secular and democratic nation they believe the vision of the Ataturk is the best path. That vision is still young and fragile.

Formal membership in the E.U. will, I believe, shorten their transition time. Embrace and extend, if you like. Disintegration into separate ethnic and religious States is not in the best interest of the peoples of Turkey, nor in the best interests of Europe.

Push too hard, too soon and Turkey will break. Does Europe truly want a theocracy sitting on their doorstep?

Re:Turkey is the pinnacle of Islam.

[Alinabi]

Every country censors. For example, in the US the authorities get an attack of apoplexy when they see boobies on TV...

Re:Turkey is the pinnacle of Islam.

[bogjobber]

I'm American, so I don't really have a horse in the race, and I disagree (mostly). You are probably correct that Turkey is not ready for full freedom of speech, religion, etc. It doesn't seem to be an issue that most Turks support strongly. I may be wrong on that, but that's certainly how it seems to me. However, the European Union must not under any circumstances budge in any of these instances.

The fact is that the EU already exists. It doesn't have to make the same decisions that the US had to make in order to ensure the survival of the government. They have dealt with insane countries at their border before (i.e. USSR, Yugoslavia, North Africa) and they can do so again. There is absolutely no need to make such a large compromise here, the EU is much better off without Turkey than Turkey without the EU. If it wants admittance, it must play by the rules completely. If that doesn't happen, then it doesn't happen. But this is an issue so important that the EU absolutely can't bend. If it takes fifty or a hundred years for Turkey to accept, then so be it. What's the point of even having freedoms spelled out in a constitution (or treaties, whatever it is that makes up EU law) if you're just going to write them off for a relatively small political and economic gain?

I'm foremost a pragmatist, but do you really want to undermine the very things the EU is supposed to protect? What really is the worth of having Turkey in the EU if it means giving up some of your own rights (nominally, sure but still)? What if EU laws concerning free expression of religion in Turkey actually causes radical Islam to *increase* its influence? It's not a given that membership in the EU will affect positive change in Turkey.

Probably not going to invite them in...

[Kadin2048]

Does Europe truly want a theocracy sitting on their doorstep?

I think Europe would prefer a theocracy on their doorstep, then in their living room.

Re:Cut with "East meets West" shit already

[sita]

There used to be such a thing. But the west left Istanbul in the twenties.

Re:Double Standards, Ignorance

[Paperkirin]

There's one key difference between every item on that list and the Armenian genocide: we in the west are free to say that they happened or are happening. Since we are free to discuss them and their consequences, we can come to a consensus as to whether or not they are/were good things. See the prohibition on slavery, for example. That would never have been brought about if Wilberforce et al. hadn't been free to go around and tell people why he thought it was wrong.

MOD DOWN (-1, Empty of Content)

[mangu]

there is no such thing. In istanbul east meets east.

It's a sad thing that the "moderators" seem to be chosen for their ignorance. Your post said absolutely nothing, it's so empty of meaning that it's not even wrong.

OTOH, the grandparent post was quite informative on the real issues regarding Turkey. The laws mentioned in the article are actually trying to protect Turkey from Islam extremism. Although it may seem that censorship is not exactly the best way to protect freedom, that was the intention of the Turkish legislators.

At this point, your inane comment has (+5) of which 70% "interesting" and 30% "insightful", while the GP has (+1) "insightful". OK, let's go to metamod...

Re: Turkey, the E.U. and things to come

[chill]

The difference is, besides just one death, is that these people were fighting to be included. At no point was there a threat of civil war or the break-up of France. The immigrants just wanted to stop being considered second-class citizens. They want to belong. Lots of mayhem and chaos for the cameras, but most of it was insured and nothing permanent was damaged.

If Turkey breaks up, we're talking the attempted formation of an independent Kurdistan, which traditionally spans parts of Turkey, Iraq, Armenia, Azerbaijan, Iran and Syria. You'd be looking at possible land grabs by many of those countries, as they all make "traditional" border claims. Paybacks for the Armenian massacre of 1915 could escalate the whole area into a bloodbath that makes Southern Iraq look like a safe-haven.

I'm not saying everything in Europe is all laid back and nothing ever happens, I'm just saying they've evolved more into a bureaucracy than anything else. They're much more inclined to a "just relax, let's talk and we can work things out" attitude than most everyone in Asia Minor.

It'll be a shock, but give it another 50 years and I think becoming a member of the E.U. will be the best thing that happened to Turkey since the formation of the secular state by the Atatürk.