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NASA Probe Validates Einstein Within 1%
An anonymous reader writes "Gravity Probe B uses four ultra-precise gyroscopes to measure two effects of Einstein's general relativity theory — the geodetic effect and frame dragging. According to the mission's principal investigator, the data from Gravity Probe B's gyroscopes confirm the Einstein theory's value for the geodetic effect to better than 1%. In a common analogy, the geodetic effect is similar to the shape of the dip created when the ball is placed on to a rubber sheet. If the ball is then rotated, it will start to drag the rubber sheet around with it. In a similar way, the Earth drags local space and time around with it — ever so slightly — as it rotates. Over time, these effects cause the angle of spin of the satellite's gyroscopes to shift by tiny amounts." The investigators will be doing further data analysis over the coming months and expect to release final results late this year.
That project took way too long. I remember people working on it when I went through Stanford in the mid-1980s. It was something of a boondoggle; it mostly produced students, not flight hardware. I'm glad to hear it finally worked, though.
... balls on rubber sheets. Seriously.
True, it did take a while. But I'd like to think it was worth the wait. Also, for those who care, here is a link to the Stanford page http://einstein.stanford.edu/ it has the same info as the article along with more stuff about the project.
Actually people have been preparing this experiment since the 1960s.
There was a great lecture about this on this year's hungarian skeptics conference, spiced with the real life experience that Hungary was part of the soviet influence sphere at that time, so when one physicist was allowed to go to the USA for a year to do research. When he came back, his colleagues were flocking him, discussing the news and that the americans are setting up this experiment. The lecturer, now an old man, can finally see the result of the experiment they were discussing more than 40 years ago.
It takes a man to suffer ignorance and smile
Be yourself no matter what they say
I spent a week watching all the Nova PBS episodes, learning about this and string theory. Even though I'm not a mathematician or physicist, it certainly caught my attention.
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/elegant/
"To be is to do." -Socrates
"To do is to be." -Jean-Paul Sartre
"Do-be-do-be-do." -Frank Sinatra
This was not a NASA experiment per se, it was a Stanford experiment. The original press release can be found here. The official stanford website also lists preliminary findings here.
While I don't believe Tesla actually said it, I've often seen him credited with the phrase "If only Mr. Edison would a bit smarter, he wouldn't need sweat so much."
>> genius is 1% and perspiration is 99%.
My sweaty Uncle Phil must have a 198 IQ.
sciency details:
d _einstein_iv_showdown_in.php (April 4)
http://cosmicvariance.com/2007/04/15/dragging-on/ (4:33 p.m.)
Also of interest if you're into this sort of thing, what Beyond Einstein programs will be cut?
http://scienceblogs.com/catdynamics/2007/04/beyon
sad if you compare sticker prices to the $10 billion per month on the Iraq adventure.
If you need text styles to communicate then you don't have a message.
with regard to this. This isn't someone claiming ID causes the universe to act as it does, this is FSCKING Einstein. That he is proved correct is more about man understanding the universe, and relying less on the theory that it is too complicated to understand and must have been created by an imaginary being. This *IS* news, and should be heralded appropriately.
While some might think me a troll, think about it, Einstein was right. That means that we are that much closer to understanding how the universe works. Even 100 years ago such progression could only be imagined, not proven. In the time that we live in, science books have to be revised every year not because of a need to spend government money, but to actually keep them up to date!
So much change and investigation. People have become numb to the actual changes.
Support NYCountryLawyer RIAA vs People
Gyroscopes resist changes in angular momentum, not linear momentum. So it only has increased rotational intertia. If you were measuring the box's mass by trying to spin it rather than push it, then yes, it would appear more massive. But if you just pushed it in a straight line, then it would behave the same as if your gyroscopes were still.
On your second question, electrons and subatomic particles don't really spin, they have orbitals. Electron orbitals are the probability distribution of an electron in a atom or molecule. Take a look: http://www.orbitals.com/orb/ So it's not really like a gyroscope. But that is an interesting question, i.e. Do electron orbits effect the angular momentum of atoms? How would you measure that experimentally? Does Newtonian Physics operate on that level?
Firstly, I'm going to guess that frame dragging is verified at no better resolution than the curvature of space/time, but that as far as they can tell, it exists and meets the values expected by Einstein.
Frame dragging is the name of one particular way in which spacetime curves. It is curvature. To say something about frame dragging or curvature is to say something about the other. I don't know if the parent statement makes sense or not. The group has not released their frame dragging measurements yet, just the geodetic precession measurements (the precision of which will likely go up as they isolate more systematics in their data as they move toward making a statement about frame dragging). Frame dragging is about 100 times harder to measure than geodetic precession, for the mass and spin of the Earth.
Secondly, I'm also going to guess that QM experts will start to get a little nervous. The properties any future QM model of gravity must have contradict the GR model. They cannot both be right. The more "right" the GR model, the more problematic a QM model. This doesn't mean a QM model does not exist, only that it is most undesirable (from a QM perspective) for the GR model to make highly precise and accurate predictions.
GR is arguably the most successful physical theory to date (I would say that electrodynamics rivals it since it has been formulated classically in curved spacetime and also has been quantized successfully in flat spacetime, but that is another discussion). Newton was not "right", but note that GR simplifies to Newtonian mechanics in the weak field and non-relativistic limit. Any theory which supersedes a highly successful physical theory must reproduce said theory in the proper limits. A quantum theory of gravity must reproduce GR in the macroscopic limit, just as quantum mechanics has a correspondence principle which allows it to reproduce classical wave and particle phenomena in the appropriate limit. I don't think any physicist is nervous about these results - everybody expects GPB to verify the predicted frame dragging. Deviations from the values predicted would excite fans of MoND, SVT theories, and other alternative theories of gravity.
Thirdly, frame-dragging occurs at a non-zero distance from an object.
Frame dragging curves spacetime globally, but falls off to asymptotic flatness. The parent statement probably makes sense.
This doesn't matter, for the purpose of these observations, as they're nowhere near accurate to measure the relativistic effects that apply to the information passed that creates the effects in the first place. Nonetheless, such an affect must exist, or you'd end up with infinitely fast rates of change of state, which is expressly forbidden in GR.
The NSF and NASA don't spend this much money to throw an instrument into space unless they think it will actually measure what it's supposed to. The gyros are the most spherical macroscopic manmade objects, which used superconducting quantum interference devices (SQUIDs) to precisely measure their precession, blah blah blah, read about it on their web site. I sure hope they're accurate enough to measure those relativistic effects, because that's exactly what they've been designed to do. I don't know what information you are talking about. The Einstein Field Equations are local, so there is an inherent limit on the speed at which 'information' (curvature) propogates through spacetime.
It's a gross simplification and it's not an "obvious" conclusion to reach by any means, but if the curvature (and restoration) of space/time has nothing analogous to Hooke's Constant, then after a gravitationally massive object has move
-Leo
Glad it worked? I'm horrified it worked. /. geek wouldn't know the term) than we thought we were before.
Every time someone (re)validates Einstein relativity theories, we actually know we're one step further from FTL (Faster than light - though I'd be surprised if any
Damm gravity.
When in danger or in doubt, run in circles, scream and shout [Robert Heinlein]
FTL? WTF? Everybody knows that FTL drives are a work of fiction.
No, my friend, what you need is a warp drive.
For some reason the article and summary only mention that Gravity Probe B was trying to measure was "minuscule" however, I at least find the actual quantity to be FAR more impressive than some journalist calling it small. Anyway want to know the precession?
Frame Dragging Effect (has NEVER before been measured): 1.1x10^-5 degrees per YEAR
Geodetic Effect: 1.8x10^-3 degrees per YEAR
Clearly then, these were not merely "minuscule" shifts...the potential for error is great.
More information can be found at http://www.nasa.gov/mission_pages/gpb/index.html
Actually, considering that Edison is famous for:
- taking credit for his employees' inventions as if he personally and singlehandedly came up with them. (There are at least 28 inventors that Edison ripped off this way, including for example taking credit for inventing the motion picture camera. Actually, it was invented by W.K. Dickson.)
- patented stuff he didn't actually have yet, and/or wasn't even original
E.g., he applied for a lightbulb patent a full year before actually having a filament that was commercially viable: and Edison's, or shall we say, his teams, _only_ contribution there was a commercially viable filament. The light bulb as such had already been discovered, it just didn't last long enough to be worth buying. But wait, even the carbon filament wasn't new: Edison't patent application itself had come a whole 1 year after Joseph Swan had patented a working model in England (and was working at it since 1850, 28 years earlier). So basically it took Edison and his team two years to copycat someone else's invention and claim credit.
- bogus patents, e.g., a number of patents on ornamental designs
- using PR and bad science to win public support: see the "war of the currents", where Edison (who wanted to sell direct current) paid people to roam the country and conduct demonstrations of killing cats, dogs, and once even an elephant with alternating current. Just, you know, to show people that alternating current kills. (While supposedly his direct current at the same 110V doesn't. Yeah, right.) He's also the author of the electric chair, as part of the same campaign to prove that AC kills. The first execution had the guy pretty much fried alive over a time of more than a minute (he certainly was still alive and struggling after the first 17 second jolt), in a show that sickened spectators and was described by the New York Times as, "an awful spectacle, far worse than hanging." That's the kind of PR that served Edison's purposes.
- shafting the employees. E.g., Tesla was promised a (huge for that time) bonus of $50,000 if he succeeds in making an improvement to the DC generators. When he actually succeeded, Edison didn't pay him, and in fact told him, "When you become a full-fledged American you will appreciate an American joke." In fact, he even refused to at least give Tesla a raise.
- mis-treating his employees. They actually spread word of Edison's current mood, so they'd know to duck for cover if he's in a bad mood.
- speaking of Tesla, here's one thing he said about Edison's dumb trial-and-error methods, a.k.a., 99% perspiration: "His method was inefficient in the extreme, for an immense ground had to be covered to get anything at all unless blind chance intervened and, at first, I was almost a sorry witness of his doings, knowing that just a little theory and calculation would have saved him 90 percent of the labor. But he had a veritable contempt for book learning and mathematical knowledge, trusting himself entirely to his inventor's instinct and practical American sense." (Would explain why most "Edison" inventions were actually from employees who actually understood what they're doing.)
- various attempts at monopoly, including the infamous "Motion Picture Patents Company", a.k.a., the Edison Trust. You know, if you thought that MPAA is bad, the MPPC meant you couldn't even make independent films without Edison's blessing.
- showing more contempt to the artists than the RIAA today, and in fact, enough to make the RIAA look like the good guys. Edison refused to even print the artist's name on the label. You're buying Edison music, you peon, not some artist's music. On one occasion he stated, "I would rather quit the business than be a party to the boasting up of undeserved reputations." Yeah, who do you think you _are_ to be getting any reputation for your talent and popularity. Only the great Edison should get a reputation out of it.
- letting his personal moods and preferences be the only criterio
A polar bear is a cartesian bear after a coordinate transform.
Basically, the mission hasn't yet succeeded, and it doesn't seem to be completely certain that it will.
/ ExperimentError.pdf) has a one-sigma error of 100 milli-arcseconds per year, significantly larger than the relativistic effect and significantly larger than the effect from the motion of the target star through space. The initial expectation was for an error budget of less than 0.5 mas per year, so there was a lot of work done on measuring the proper motion of the star to that precision.
The goal was to measure the frame-dragging effect of the Earth, which is of the order of 40 milli-arcseconds per year; the current calibration (http://einstein.stanford.edu/content/aps_posters
The problems turn out to be really crazily subtle issues in solid-state physics -- the deposited metal films on the gyroscope and on its housing retain charge in patches large enough that they have to be modelled rather than averaged out -- plus an annoying issue from classical mechanics where the motion of a rigid body around three axes XYZ depends on the ratio of the differences of the moments of inertia X-Z and Y-Z. Whilst the gyroscopes are absurdly precisely made, so the moments of inertia are very close, the ratio of the differences of the moments of inertia is a macroscopic number; this is the same effect, and even a similar cause, to some of the oddities with low-precision floating-point arithmetic.
They'll probably be sorted out, sigma might be reduced by a factor ten after another year's modelling effort, but it seems unlikely that they'll get it down by the factor 200 they were hoping for.
The frame-dragging has already been measured indirectly by looking at the flickers of X-ray sources caused by frame-dragging-induced precession of the accretion discs around black holes, and most of the theories that suggest relativity is wrong would suggest that any oddities would be more pronounced in the huge gravitomagnetic fields near black holes than in the tiny fields near a mass as small, as non-dense and as slowly rotating as Earth.