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Quantum Physics Parts Ways With Reality

aeoneal sends us to PhysicsWeb for news guaranteed to induce headache in those wedded to the reality of, well, reality. Researchers from the University of Vienna have shown the violation of a stronger form of Bell's inequality known as Leggett's inequality. The result means that we must not only give up Einstein's hope of "no spooky action at a distance," we must also give up (some of) the idea that the world exists when we are not looking. From the article: "[Studies] have ruled out all hidden-variables theories based on joint assumptions of realism, meaning that reality exists when we are not observing it; and locality, meaning that separated events cannot influence one another instantaneously. But a violation of Bell's inequality does not tell specifically which assumption — realism, locality, or both — is discordant with quantum mechanics." From the Nature abstract: "Our result suggests that giving up the concept of locality is not sufficient to be consistent with quantum experiments, unless certain intuitive features of realism are abandoned." Only subscribers to Nature, alas, can know what features those are, as PhysicsWeb doesn't tell us.

16 of 568 comments (clear)

  1. bye-bye! by FooAtWFU · · Score: 5, Funny

    Nothing for you to see here. Please move along.
    See that? That's the gaping hole where Quantum Physics used to be. It's gone now, though, and all we have for comfort is bad science fiction.
    --
    The World Wide Web is dying. Soon, we shall have only the Internet.
    1. Re:bye-bye! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Informative

      Am I the only one that thinks to themselves, "One of these days, some really smart person is going to come out with a new and better theory of reality that reveals all this quantum mechanics stuff to be a bunch of quackery."?

      Nope, and a lot of physicists think that quantum mechanics is fundamentally broken beyond the level of fixing - though it is a massively useful theory from a calculational point of view, it has deeper problems than just the ones involved in this experiment, including the measurement problem.
       
      Nobody is really sure what quantum physics says about reality or locality. Each of the interpretations is flawed or incomplete in some way. You might be interested to read about David Bohm's interesting theory - though a lot of people think it's garbage, it does illuminate the lengths you must go to to fashion a theory that is consistent with quantum mechanics yet doesn't completely shred your common sense notions of reality. I have no idea if the experiment in this article has anything to say about so-called "Bohmian mechanics," as the blurb was completely uninformative and I don't subscribe to Nature...
    2. Re:bye-bye! by kestasjk · · Score: 5, Insightful

      You might be interested to read about David Bohm's interesting theory - though a lot of people think it's garbage, it does illuminate the lengths you must go to to fashion a theory that is consistent with quantum mechanics yet doesn't completely shred your common sense notions of reality. What does common sense have to do with anything? The way we experience the world wasn't set up to be able to understand it, but to survive in it.

      When we see an insect being tricked into thinking an orchid is a female insect we think "That orchid doesn't look anything like an insect, what a strange mistake to make", and a bat might use echo location and see us being aroused by something that simply has the texture and shape of a piece of paper which doesn't resemble the texture or shape of a female human and wonder how we could make such a mistake.
      Our common sense and intuition don't necessarily tell us what's true, especially when it doesn't relate the world we evolved in, so we have to rely on experiments, and quantum theory constantly makes accurate predictions. If it's beyond our common sense and intuition then that's too bad for us.
      --
      // MD_Update(&m,buf,j);
    3. Re:bye-bye! by kripkenstein · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Quantum mechanics is an actual scientific theory based on empirical evidence, it's the interpretation of it that quickly gets into the whole area of "philosophy, but with complex equations".
      You are 100% right that QM is a scientific theory. But, to say that only the 'interpretation' of QM brings us into the realm of philosophy is perhaps somewhat inaccurate. The distinction between a 'theory' and its 'interpretation' is not that clear.

      In particular, theories are judged based on what you might call 'philosophical' notions. And in fact, the great physicists - Newton, etc. - all had very deep philosophical ideas about their theories (although those are perhaps less well-known).

      As an example, we now consider Newton's law of gravity to be correct (up to relativistic considerations). Yet, at the time, many thought this to be philosophical nonsense. For what is gravity - it is 'action at a distance', with no mechanism! When a billiard ball hits another, the operation of force is clear, but why should some force exist between two billiard balls far apart? This is pretty much the same issue as the 'nonlocality' issue with QM. It took quite a lot of convincing to get the scientific world to agree with Newton's 'action at a distance', and the discussion was both practical (numbers, experiments) and 'philosophical' (how it fits into the rest of the current picture of 'reality' at the time).

      Anyhow, just trying to point out that science and philosophy are not disconnected. As science gets more specialized, it may seem so, since scientists don't get any philosophical training these days (they used to, though!).
    4. Re:bye-bye! by kestasjk · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Are you saying that you can't discover new technologies using quantum mechanics because it doesn't follow common sense?

      Or worse; are you saying science isn't worthwhile as a search for truth, and that scientific pursuits are only worthwhile when it helps create new products for consumption?

      --
      // MD_Update(&m,buf,j);
  2. First Post! by HeadlessNotAHorseman · · Score: 5, Funny

    This comment is always the first post, as long as you are observing it. That's because by observing this comment you are not observing any previous comments, therefore they cease to exist!

    --
    I like my coffee the way I like my women - roasted and ground up into little tiny pieces.
  3. Original paper... by aivuk · · Score: 5, Informative

    you can find here http://arxiv.org/abs/0704.2529.

  4. Re:What does it mean for us to observe something? by Ambitwistor · · Score: 5, Informative

    Humans don't have anything special to do with "observing" ("collapse of the wavefunction" or "state reduction"). A particle can be "observed" by a rock, or by any other "classical" macroscopic system with which it can entangle. Quantum decoherence in the consistent histories interpretation, IMHO, comes closest to explaining this process.

  5. Re:A layman's view by Profane+MuthaFucka · · Score: 5, Funny

    Latin, motherfucker!, do you speak it?

    --
    Fascism trolls keeping me up every night. When I starts a preachin', he HITS ME WITH HIS REICH!
  6. Bleh, no real new science here by Henry+V+.009 · · Score: 5, Interesting

    We've known for a couple decades that EPR made local hidden variable theories extremely unlikely. The real competitors are non-local. Bohmian mechanics (de-Broglie pilot wave theory, really) is one such. Bohmian mechanics make all the same experimental predictions as normal Quantum Mechanics. Bohmians tend to think of Quantum Mechanics as a non-local theory that only appears local because you talk about probabilities instead of positions. The probabilities of Bohmian mechanics are actually just as local as Quantum Mechanics...

    Not that Bohmian mechanics should be viewed as a correct theory. It's clearly an artificial construct. But it's a better theory than QM for the simple fact that it talks about particle positions instead of observers. One assumes, after all, that physics goes on even when physicists aren't there to observe it.

  7. Disproving this theory... by EmbeddedJanitor · · Score: 5, Funny

    A site can still get slashdotted even if I don't look at it.

    --
    Engineering is the art of compromise.
  8. They're not saying the universe needs us to look. by Ungrounded+Lightning · · Score: 5, Interesting

    As I read it they're not saying anything about the universe not existing when nobody's looking.

    Quantum mechanics has a set of descriptions of matter/energy that "feel" incomplete.

    To "classical physics" thinking the collapse of wave functions of entangled particles seems to require either some faster-than-light communication between the entangled particles (to tell the far one about how the near one was observed - violation of "locality") or some hidden variable (to carry information slower-than-light from the point in space-time where they became entangled to the point where each is observed - "realism" would include this hidden variable as part of the particles' state). Quantum mechanics doesn't describe either. It just describes a situation where this sort of thing just happens - in a way that you can't use it to carry information faster than light from one spacetime location to another.

    Lots of work is being done to see if quantum mechanics can be "patched" into a more classical theory, in a way that preserves realism and locality by figuring out some way that a hidden variable can carry, from the entanglement to the observation at no more than lightspeed, the information necessary for a classical mechanism to produce the same result.

    This work shows that some simple experiments have already eliminated a very broad class of such hidden variable theories - to the point that "realism" patches involving hidden variables carrying additional information with the particles looks pretty hopeless. This is another step toward the "quantum mechanics really is all there is to it" viewpoint.

    (Of course I Am Not A Physicist so I could be reading it wrong.)

    --
    Bantam Dominique roosters crow a four-note song. Once you've heard it as "Happy BIRTHday" you can't NOT hear it that way
  9. Re:The Universe by navyjeff · · Score: 5, Funny

    Are you a proton? Yes, I'm positive.
  10. Re:What does it mean for us to observe something? by osu-neko · · Score: 5, Interesting

    Just how sure are we that the universe is comprehensible?

    It's one of the axioms of science. It's not a question of being sure, it's a question of necessarily assuming it's true in order to proceed. There are basically three axioms you assume any time you're doing science, because there'd be absolutely no point to doing it if they aren't, and it appears science is useful, so we roll with the assumptions despite them being unproven (and in fact unprovable, even in principle).

    First, we assume that nature is lawful. Things happen in accord with these laws and nothing happens except in accord with these laws. That doesn't necessarily mean the universe is deterministic or anything like that -- laws can be probabilistic, after all. In any case, since the point of science is to determine what the laws of the nature are, they better be there or the whole game is a fool's quest.

    Second, we assume that the laws of nature are universal -- they're good any time, any place. If something behaves differently in one circumstance than another, this doesn't mean the laws change, it just means the laws are complex and take factors into account that make those two circumstances different with regards to them. We just need to understand the law completely to know why. This assumption needs to be true, or else there's absolutely no point in making observations or conducting experiments, since they would only tell you something about the laws in that place at that time. For observation and experiment to be useful, it must be the case that the laws apply in other places and times than the time and place of the observation.

    And third, we assume that the laws of nature are comprehensible and discoverable. Again, the whole scientific endeavor is devoted to discovering these laws, and that's simply not possible if they aren't discoverable (and our being unable to comprehend them would preclude us from discovering them).

    One could argue one doesn't have to believe these things are true to do science, but any time one does science, one is necessarily accepting them as axioms, assuming them to be true for the purposes of doing science, at least for the moment. I suppose you could ultimately view the scientific endeavor as a whole as a test of these three things. If it succeeds, it will have proven them true. If it ultimately fails in the end, perhaps they weren't. But of course you can never know that, it may be they were true, we just didn't manage to find all the answers, but in principle we could have. One can never be sure of success, either, so in the end, we'll never truly know.

    But they've sure proven useful so far. If nothing else, one can make a mighty powerful pragmatic argument for thinking them true.

    --
    "Convictions are more dangerous enemies of truth than lies."
  11. Well, it makes sense by Moraelin · · Score: 5, Interesting

    Well, it all makes sense, if you think of it. Whoever is running this MMO we call RL, can't possibly have the resources to simulate every single particle all the time. So until someone actually goes and observes the damn thing, there's no need to actually spawn/instantiate it.

    Think of going farming for copper and tin ore in, say, the Gold Coast Quary in WoW. A particular ore spawn point might have been spawned as tin (most often), or as silver (rarely) or not at all. Would it already be spawned and in memory, if noone was there to see it? Or would it exist only as a probability until someone actually gets in range?

    Or say you're hacking away at a copper ore vein with your trusty cold iron pickaxe, like a good dwarf. Sometimes you get just a piece of copper ore, sometimes you also get 1-2 pieces of stone, sometimes you get a Shadowgem, or a Tigerseye or Malachite. Were they already there before you started to hack at the ore vein? Or did they exist only as a probability until someone actually gets that loot window?

    Of course, once you got a certain set of ore, stone and/or gems, closing the window and hacking at it again, won't change it. It stays the same set of, say, 1 ore, 2 stone, 1 gem until you actually loot them.

    I can tell you, the best gnomish engineers and mages have worked hard for an answer to those questions, but everyone came up empty. We just can't figure out a way to see what's there without seeing what's there. Even warlocks sending their Eye Of Killrog into the mine didn't manage to fool the system. That and the eye got killed by the bandits in the mine. The best priests whined... err... prayed piously to the great gods of Blizzard, and got no answer. Etc.

    --
    A polar bear is a cartesian bear after a coordinate transform.
    1. Re:Well, it makes sense by MobyDisk · · Score: 5, Interesting

      Perhaps you are joking, but I've often wondered if quantum effects are caused by the universe having limited floating-point accuracy.

      Big things seem to move in simple and obvious Newtonian physics. But as we look smaller and smaller, things seem to jump from place to place, go through each other, and behave randomly. This is precisely what happens in a simulation as you approach 0 in floating-point. You can get seemingly random effects by adding very very small numbers together. It is also similar to what happens if an object in a video games moves very quickly relative to the the frame rate. The bullet may pass through things, especially other things moving quickly.

      Maybe, in a few generations, we will be able to break out of this universe, and see what is really out there.