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Judge Says RIAA "Disingenuous," Decision Stands

NewYorkCountryLawyer writes "Judge Lee R. West in Oklahoma City, Oklahoma, has rejected the arguments made by the RIAA in support of its 'reconsideration' motion in Capitol v. Foster as 'disingenuous' and 'not true,' and accused the RIAA of 'questionable motives.' The decision (PDF) reaffirmed Judge West's earlier decision that defendant Debbie Foster is entitled to be reimbursed for her attorneys fees." Read more for NewYorkCountryLawyer's summary of the smackdown.
The Court, among other things, emphasized the Supreme Court's holding in Fogerty v. Fantasy, Inc. that "because copyright law ultimately serves the purpose of enriching the general public through access to creative works, it is peculiarly important that the boundaries of copyright law be demarcated as clearly as possible. Thus, a defendant seeking to advance meritorious copyright defenses should be encouraged to litigate them to the same extent that plaintiffs are encouraged to litigate meritorious infringement claims." Judge West also noted that he had found the RIAA's claims against the defendant to be "untested and marginal" and its "motives to be questionable in light of the facts of the case"; that the RIAA's primary argument for its motion — that the earlier decision had failed to list the "Fogerty factors" — was belied by unpublished opinions in which the RIAA had itself been involved; that the RIAA's argument that it could have proved a case against Ms. Foster had it not dropped the case was "disingenuous"; and that the RIAA's factual statements about the settlement history of the case were "not true." This is the same case in which an amicus brief had been filed by the ACLU, Public Citizen, EFF, AALL, and ACLU-Oklahoma in support of the attorneys fees motion, the RIAA questioned the reasonableness of Ms. Foster's lawyer's fees and was then ordered to turn over its own attorneys billing records, which ruling it complied with only reluctantly.

22 of 195 comments (clear)

  1. Hey, RIAA by Himring · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Judges can't fix your flawed business model and/or lack of innovation....

    --
    "All great things are simple & expressed in a single word: freedom, justice, honor, duty, mercy, hope." --Churchill
    1. Re:Hey, RIAA by BeansBaxter · · Score: 5, Insightful

      I would think the RIAA might be a little nervous about paying legal fees to all the wrongfully accused however. It might make their selection of random file sharers a little more difficult. The way it should be handled I think.

    2. Re:Hey, RIAA by sconeu · · Score: 5, Interesting
      Or, as Heinlein said over 60 years ago,

      There has grown up in the minds of certain groups in this country the notion that because a man or a corporation has made a profit out of the public for a number of years , the government and the courts are charged with the duty of guaranteeing such profit in the future, even in the face of changing circumstances and contrary public interest. This strange doctrine is not supported by statute nor common law. Neither individuals nor corporations have any right to come into court and ask that the clock of history be stopped ,or turned back, for their private benefit.

      -- The Judge in "Life-Line"

      --
      General Relativity: Space-time tells matter where to go; Matter tells space-time what shape to be.
  2. Sadly.... by 8127972 · · Score: 5, Insightful

    .... I suspect that this will not stop the MAFIAA from making the lives of millions of Americans miserable. They'll just blow it off and it will be business as usual for them.

    --
    This is my opinion. To make sure you don't steal it, it's covered by the DMCA.
    1. Re:Sadly.... by Hijacked+Public · · Score: 5, Funny

      You don't just count the people being sued, you have to also consider the great many Slashdotters who believe that any expectation that you pay anything at all for any media that can be digitized equates to misery.

      That they be denied the ability to obtain, free of charge, the latest pop music in a format that not only plays on any conceivable device but was also developed by people who share their particular political and philosophical leanings with regard to software....that is truly misery for them.

      Bands make money from touring. DRM is evil. You can make unlimited copies of a song for no marginal cost. I only listen to independent bands anyway. Live music is better. The president of the RIAA has a monocle and stokes a cat all day. Ogg Vorbis is a good name for a file format. Micropayments are the future. Outmoded business model.

      --
      "Sacrifice for the good of The State" - The State
    2. Re:Sadly.... by Maxo-Texas · · Score: 5, Insightful

      I agree. It's a shame that people are trying to undermine the successful and legitimate efforts by these businessmen to successfully lock up all major distribution channels, radio stations and to have laws passed to extend their copyrights indefinitely or as jack valenti said, "forever plus one day."

      It's just wrong that corporations should not be able to force artists into contracts which deny them any profits after millions of dollars worth of sales. If this goes on, we might see the destruction of copyrighting sequences of notes and see entire new genre's of music like blues which shamelessly infringe on the same set of riffs for different songs.

      A unique combination of generations of producers, lawyers, organized criminals, and the congressmen and senators that they bought have worked hard to create a virtual monopoly. Where is our respect for all that work?

      --
      She was like chocolate when she drank... semi-sweet at first and then increasingly bitter.
    3. Re:Sadly.... by Mr2001 · · Score: 5, Funny

      I tried to stoke a cat once, but I couldn't figure out which end the coal was supposed to go in.

      --
      Visual IRC: Fast. Powerful. Free.
    4. Re:Sadly.... by DarkSarin · · Score: 5, Insightful

      No, there wasn't a gun involved, but there might as well have been.

      If you are trying to make a living by writing and selling music, then you have essentially three choices--market it on your own, make it free and try to make money touring (if you can get noticed); or you might be able to secure an independent label contract, market it essentially on your own, and hope to make money touring; or, if you get lucky, you can get noticed, sign a major label (read: RIAA) contract, and be stuck with whatever terms they offer, because while some people are good enough to have multiple labels clamoring over their stuff, this is unusual. Instead most bands are lucky to have any label be willing to sign them and there are always others willing to take your place.

      The result is that RIAA labels, in effect, have huge amounts of buying power when it comes to negotiating artist contracts. These contracts are typically draconian in nature, and leave most bands actually losing money for a while, although the label is raking in lots of cash.

      Now, if you go with an independent label, you just have to HOPE that you get famous and make money. The same is true of no label deals, and in all cases you are expected to tour relentlessly and hope for the best. NPR did a fluff piece on the Dresden Dolls a while back that talks about how the band was making less money than the people they had to hire to make the tour work! Sad.

      The point is that being an artist isn't easy, and the RIAA does NOTHING to make it easier for the vast majority. Only a very few actually get deals that reward them in line with the amount of CDs they sell relative to the amount of work it requires from the artist.

      I have no expectation of free music, but I DO expect that the price I pay get passed mostly on to the artist with only a small percentage going to the label and distributors (including the retailer). This isn't what happens, and I know why people are pissed.

      --
      "We don't know what we are doing, but we are doing it very carefully,..." Wherry, R.J. Personnel Psychology (1995)
    5. Re:Sadly.... by MetalPhalanx · · Score: 5, Insightful

      I think you might have missed an important sentence in the GP post... the one that explains how the corporations can hold a gun to a band member's head. I'll point it out: (emphasis mine)

      It's a shame that people are trying to undermine the successful and legitimate efforts by these businessmen to successfully lock up all major distribution channels, radio stations and to have laws passed to extend their copyrights indefinitely or as jack valenti said, "forever plus one day."

      In the days before the internet, the record labels made life for independent artists as hard as they could, to force them into restrictive contracts. Good luck trying to get any air time on a significant radio station as an independent artist. And the strange thing about bands, is that while you can make money touring, you first have to gain a strong following. To do that, people have to hear you. If you can't get any air time the only way to do that is tour with other bands. But chances are, unless you're very original AND very good, most people will not remember your material nearly as well as whatever song that one of the labels has playing on the radio every 20 minutes all day long. NOT accepting a contract with a record label was a death knell for almost any band. Of course, there is always the possibility of arguing for a better contract, but it's not likely to be improved much, unless you really are very good and very original.

      Of course, now with the internet their efforts to lock up the major distribution channels are starting to fail, so they are flailing wildly in an attempt to gain control over this new and unexpected threat. So far, they seem to be having some trouble, and I hope it continues that way.

    6. Re:Sadly.... by Artifakt · · Score: 5, Interesting

      The RIAA and MPAA individual members have all, without one single exception, lost at least one suit, filed by an artist or multiple artists, where the corporations were caught concealing the true status of profits, under-reporting gross or net take, and/or over-reporting expenses, billing for expenses not actually incurred, double, triple, and even quadruple billing. In several of these cases they have committed such large numbers of 'convenient mistakes all just happening to fall their way' that the judges deciding those cases have freely used terms such as "egregious", "willful" and even "rising to a level that is undoubtedly criminal" in their decisions. Last I heard how the law is supposed to work, contract fraud is supposed to be illegal, even with no armed force involved.
            Yes, you could possibly justify an anti-trust argument, but how about this broader one. If artists are still entering into contracts with a group of companies that have all been caught cheating on contracts, there must be some unfair advantage to keep them doing it. Whether it's a monopolistic trust that leaves them no better options, or the group otherwise enjoys selective immunity from paying the full price of their contract violations is irrelevant. The government could vigorously prosecute where conduct crosses the line to criminal accounting practices, lieing under oath, and so on, and this would help a great deal whether there is a proven monopoly or not.
            Sure, some of it, at least a little, can be blamed on various artist's stupidity. Put a clause in your recording contract that says there will be bowls of all green M&Ms available at all times on the soundstage, and you can expect to pay very dearly for it. Fair enough, but not nearly all the artists are that stupid. Which seems more likely, that there are so many artists too stupid to realize the risks, or that many of them do know they are going to get screwed, but feel like all better alternatives are closed off to them, and hope to be the one who isn't screwed too badly.
            Prior post amounts to saying "show me a successful white collar criminal who turned to blue collar methods when they didn't have to, or agree I'm right!" I'm rather surprised you're rebutting only one part of it and letting the rest stand.

      --
      Who is John Cabal?
  3. Finally! by Lockejaw · · Score: 5, Interesting

    because copyright law ultimately serves the purpose of enriching the general public through access to creative works, it is peculiarly important that the boundaries of copyright law be demarcated as clearly as possible
    It's about time we started hearing this sort of thing again.
    --
    (IANAL)
    1. Re:Finally! by pdboddy · · Score: 5, Informative

      They make their money by making people buy one cd for the car, one for the computer, one for the portable cd player, and download mp3s for their iPod/mp3 player... The sort of thing the copyright laws were supposed to prevent.

      --
      Julie Moult is an idiot.
    2. Re:Finally! by Profane+MuthaFucka · · Score: 5, Interesting

      Yes, they are, and I include all copyright holders in this as well. Go out and try to find a brand new Travelling Wilbury's CD. You can't, and you won't be able to until sometime near the year 2100 when it goes into the public domain.

      Same goes for the original recordings of some classic albums. I don't want the greatest hits copyrighted from 2006, I want to buy a brand new CD with the same record that I grew up with. Take THAT Corey Hart, you stupid Canadian money grubber. You had what, two records? And one of them was a hit? I want to buy your "First Offense" CD, not the Corey Hart greatest hits. It's absurd that you've even got a greatest hits anyway, when "First Offense" had all of hits anyway.

      If copyrights were limited as they should be, Corey Hart would be in the public domain by now, or soon, and I could just get a copy of the CD from anybody.

      Right now, I don't have any way to get a legal copy of the CD I want to buy. Thank god I already have the entire run of "The Golden Girls" on DVD, or I would have to wait until the next century for my masturbation material.

      --
      Fascism trolls keeping me up every night. When I starts a preachin', he HITS ME WITH HIS REICH!
    3. Re:Finally! by Himring · · Score: 5, Informative

      Funny? If only it were a joke. To me, John Fogerty being made to go to court to prove he didn't sound like himself (comparing new recordings he did to old when changing labels) is one of the prime examples of the insanity that is the RIAA....

      --
      "All great things are simple & expressed in a single word: freedom, justice, honor, duty, mercy, hope." --Churchill
  4. In legalese, "Disingenuous" means... by R2.0 · · Score: 5, Funny

    "Lying Bitches"

    --
    "As God is my witness, I thought turkeys could fly." A. Carlson
  5. I felt a disturbance on the net... by Black+Parrot · · Score: 5, Funny

    ...like a thousand record company executives suddenly sending each other whiney e-mails.

    --
    Sheesh, evil *and* a jerk. -- Jade
  6. Judges, no... by NeutronCowboy · · Score: 5, Interesting

    ... but politicians can. How much does a Senator or Representative go for, these days?

    --
    Those who can, do. Those who can't, sue.
  7. Unequal income litigation by iamacat · · Score: 5, Interesting

    We need a reform whereby when litigants have dramatically unequal net worth, the plaintiff is required to reimburse defendant's lawyers up to the amount that they themselves spend on legal services. The plaintiff can then argue for whatever damages they can convince jury the defendant can pay based on their income level. The same should hold true in criminal cases. When prosecutor feels the crime is grave enough to justify calling dozens of expensive expert witnesses, surely the suspect should be given a chance to prove themselves innocent. Justice shouldn't depend on your bank account, especially since we all know how many rich guys are crooks.

    1. Re:Unequal income litigation by DDX_2002 · · Score: 5, Interesting
      Should there be an award of costs if you sue someone and lose? Damn straight, that's how the British and the Canadians have always done it and it really cuts down on frivolous litigation. Costs in those systems aren't anything near actual solicitor-client costs, but they're high enough to make people think twice about wasting the court's time and the defendant's money.

      As to damages based on respective income level, dear god no. That change would completely and utterly overwhelm your first point - if McDonalds injures me to the tune of an actual loss of $1 out of my pocket, I shouldn't be able to claim $1000 just because they're a big company. That creates an enrichment in me and a huge incentive to sue big companies over frivolities. Conversely, if someone backs into Bill Gates' car, he should get less than the cost of fixing it why, exactly? If I have a $1 loss, it is perfectly reasonable to say megacorp defendant who caused the loss need to pay me $1, my filing fees and a reasonable amount on top of the real loss for my discomfort/trouble/pain/annoyance, but as a matter of legal and economic theory, I should *never* come out ahead by suing. A lawsuit is not a jackpot and god help us all if it ever becomes such (though many would argue the US is already there). Now, having said that punitive damage awards do happen- those enrich the plaintiff and are economically questionable, especially on the scale sometimes seen in US courts. But the theory is, megacorp can afford to lose $3 to cause a $1 injury if they actually make $3.25 by doing it or if they only get caught at this one time in ten, so sometimes you need to put a thumb on the scale, as it were. Punitive damages are intended to send the clear message not to do the complained of act again and avoid hundreds or thousands of other people having to sue to make the same point. They are also meant to be rare and in Canada, actually are.

      --
      MHO. YMMV. Any resemblance between this post and real persons, or reality in general, was accidental.
  8. Re:Question by NewYorkCountryLawyer · · Score: 5, Informative
    They are presently confidential.

    But when the Court's final decision fixing the amount of fees is issued, the details will probably be in the decision.

    And if the RIAA appeals, then the underlying papers will be filed as part of the appellate record, and it is highly unlikely that the appeals court would keep them confidential.

    --
    Ray Beckerman +5 Insightful
  9. Finding common ground in a new age by Borland · · Score: 5, Interesting

    The RIAA is a cure that is worse than the disease, piracy, that it fights. Frankly, I hope they do end up paying out the ass for their McLawsuit business model. That said, it always seems that arguing fairness on digital media is like arguing abortion: It is difficult to find middle ground, let alone win, an argument with a true believer.

    My own stance is often conflicted on digital media. I've never deluded myself into thinking I'm striking a blow for justice by downloading a game, software, song, show, etc. gratis. But the often clumsy DRM does sometimes make me regret a legitimate purchase. With BT games, I can take my machine to a LAN party without bringing a single disc. With a legitimate game, I'd either have to bring the discs or patch it as if I had obtained an illegal copy. Hell, I wanted a few songs right away to exercise with, so I downloaded the MSN service and bought a few bucks worth of songs: Easy as pie...until I restore my system, or until MSN folded into URGE without properly supporting legacy customers.

    Even this far into the Internet age we still haven't developed proper analogues to physical media. You can loan a book to a friend; the only DRM is the security sticker removed at the store. How do you easily loan an audio book to a friend, without making it easy to endlessly provide perfect copies? The business model needs updating, but to what? As it stands, we are buying encrypted paper books that can only be read with a cipher key licensed to an individual.

    But even that metaphor breaks down easily, since paper books employ near-universal formats that anyone literate in the language can read. Since the format is interpreted by the human mind, not a computer, any irregularities in the format (i.e. manga style graphic novels) can be adapted on the fly. We don't have to consider if a book comes in .doc, .avi, .mp3, or other format and choose the correct interpreter in addition to the language barrier.

    Ease of use is key to adoption, but what is the balance between business and consumer? Is it fair that iTunes limits players or is it fair to demand that iTunes support an open format? Damned if I know the answer.

  10. Funny accounting..... by tinkerghost · · Score: 5, Interesting

    Also remember that both the movie & record distributors have been caught repeatedly doing some very funny accounting in reguards to what makes a 'profit'. Most of the contracts issue an advance followed by royalties after a net-profit has been gained.

    ISTR that a producers new Ferrari was once considered an 'expense' in calculating net profits. For a modern example of this look no farther than New Line Cinema & Peter Jackson - LOTR1 is showing $100M+ discrepency in the audit. That's a lot of money to be 'disputed' as an expense - like 2 more movies. Worse, although it's in the contract, NL is trying to bar Jackson from auditing the books on the other 2 movies. We are talking potentially 1/2 of $1B in profits being swept under the table & hidden from the 'Artists'.