Encouraging Students to Drop Mathematics

Coryoth writes "The BBC is reporting that students in the UK are being encouraged to drop math at the senior levels. It seems that schools are seeking to boost their standing on league tables by encouraging students not to take 'hard' subjects like mathematics, in favor of easier subjects in which they are assured good grades. The result is Universities being forced to provide remedial math classes for science students who haven't done math for two years. The BBC provides a comparison between Chinese and UK university entrance tests — a comparison that makes the UK look woefully behind."

Comments

Interestingly Enough, No Examples Provided

[eldavojohn]

Disclaimer: I'm an American, I have not had any experience with the British education system.

But I noticed something peculiar in this article, there were no examples of students being encouraged to drop or avoid math as the title of both the Slashdot summary and the BBC's article state.

What I did see was that there were observations of Universities having to implement remedial math. Ok, and also that students were choosing not to take hard courses so their GPA remained high.

So what?

I faced the same choices in the American public education system and I chose the hardest courses I could. The result was that a student who took primarily shop courses graduated with highest honors & I graduated with a 3.0 or something. But I already had 11 credits through advanced placement courses.

If you're shocked that students are getting to college and needing to take remedial math, you fix the problem. the problem may be that your system encourages them to avoid math courses so give them an incentive to take them. A simple incentive is letting them know that any of the engineering sciences are going to be further away from their reach if they avoid the classes early on.

The 4.0 student who took shop as his electives is still in my hometown working on cars possibly missing a finger. I'm working half way across the country on computer systems for probably better pay. Ironically, in the end the only thing that matters is if you're happy.

Again, I didn't see anyone person or school official steering them away from math, just the potential problem of the system. Make the consequences known to them and if the student is your child, show them some encouragement!

Re:Interestingly Enough, No Examples Provided

[MarcoAtWork]

The 4.0 student who took shop as his electives is still in my hometown working on cars possibly missing a finger. I'm working half way across the country on computer systems for probably better pay.

the 4.0 student also probably will never work over 40 hours a week, is in no danger of outsourcing, and can set up shop anywhere in the US (hence having the choice of living in places where real estate is not insanely priced). You on the other hand will be squeezed as much as possible by your employer in terms of hours, paid less than your mechanic friend (when you factor the amount of hours worked) and will be forced to live in a major (and expensive) metropolitan area in order to have a chance to get another job once you'll be outsourced from your current position.

If I could go back in time when I was starting university I for sure would tell my 18 year old self to have fun programming in their spare time, but to train as an electrician, plumber or mechanic, so they will actually have some job security, good working conditions and some actual spare time to have fun programming in. That or instead of stopping with a M.Sc. to get a Ph.D. and get into teaching instead (although the politics you had to play to get tenure were not a lot of fun to contemplate either...)

And people are surprised to see that there are less and less people wanting to get into CS...

Re:Interestingly Enough, No Examples Provided

[MBGMorden]

Not sure how far back you went to school, but I graduated in 1999. Our school had some stuff in place to help with this. Basically, classes were either Tech Prep, College Prep, Honors, or AP. We were on a grading system that setup all of those such that each level higher was like a letter grade.

For instance, a C in an AP class, counted the same as a B in an Honors class, or like an A in a college prep class. There were no D's so you couldn't get a D in AP and have it work out to an A in a tech prep, but mathematically it was the same.

Now it's arguable as to whether or not that system was truly justified (because if you made made perfect scores on EVERYTHING and had a 100 average in a CP class, you still couldn't compete with B students over in the AP class. Still though, it encouraged anybody who was concerned about their rank to take the hardest version of everything you could.

Insensitive comment alert

[UbuntuDupe]

So, basically, people who suck at math are advised not to waste their time and everyone else's money, pursuing something they suck at anyway.

What's the catch?

Re:finally

[Coryoth]

I heartily endorse this. If I suck at maths then so should everyone else. You say this as a joke, but sadly it is actually very true: a lot of people who did poorly at math (often because of poor teachers early on) develop a belief that mathematics is useless as a defense mechanism -- they don't need to be good at math, so it doesn't matter that they are bad at it. The thing is that, while you don't necessarily need to be good at math for a wide variety of careers, that doesn't mean that being good at math isn't still a very useful skill for those careers. There's a good example of someone dicussing this point with regard to math for programmers. The real problem, however, is that many of these people who conclude that, because they pesonally never used it, math is useless, go on to cripple math curiccula with mistaken beliefs about what mathematics is, and what it is good for. Even worse, a surprisingly large number of elementary school teachers are these sorts of people, and they teach their hatred and ignorance of mathematics to new generations, crippling their early mathematical development, and repeating the cycle.

Why is it harder? That is the question.

[Twillerror]

Many studuents in the U.S. take higher level math. Not nearly the numbers, but many do. Some of us actually enjoy it and get it. For those that do not "get it" we don't provide an avenue.

When we all got to be 11-14 we stopped caring about school as much...not all of us of course, but many of us start to think about all the other things. From which clothes to wear to sex. School becomes and after thought for many. Then when we get to high school and need to start focusing we've already screwed ourselves.

Part of this I think is to the inadequacy of 1st thru 7th grades. We learn basic arthimetic, how to spell ( I didn't do so hot ), and some stupid life sciences. It is so general and does nothign to prepare us for the harder stuff.

Would it be so hard in the first grade when we propose _ + 7 = 11...fill in the blank to instead say X + 7 = 11. What should X be. When the kid says 4 why not then show them 4 = 11 - 7...x = 11 - 7. Basic algebra is not that much harder then the math we learn in the first and second grades, but we wait till the 7th grades when most boys are getting boners looking at their teachers.

Even the act of calling these classes harder is creating the problem. Why is algebra harder...it really isn't if presented right. Calculas is a bit tricky I'll admit, but I think if kids had a better foundation it wouldn't be that hard.

The same is true with science. I don't remember a dang thing I learned in the 7th grade about science. I think the teacher was boring me with the scientific method or something. Looking back to the thrid grade I don't even think science was on the menu. Shouldn't we have diagrams of atoms on the class and tell kids this is what everything is made of. Our minds where like sponges and we where being hand fead.

The importance of younger and younger education is becoming appartent...if you don't like to learn by the time you hit 10th grade and don't have parents pushing you to anyways you probably are not going to make it. Instead of testing kids we need to determine how much they are enjoying class.

Don't get me started on the A-F grading system :) I don't have the answers to replace it, but I think we should start talking about it.

Re:finally

[falconwolf]

Even worse, a surprisingly large number of elementary school teachers are these sorts of people, and they teach their hatred and ignorance of mathematics to new generations, crippling their early mathematical development, and repeating the cycle.

This reminds me what happened to me. In sixth grade towards the end of the year the students met with guidance counselors from the junior high to decide on what classes to take and the one I saw said I should take algebra but because I didn't know how to do square roots he couldn't let me take it. From then until tenth grade I took as advanced a math class as I could without taking algebra. Then about 6 weeks after my tenth grade year started because the teacher I had for math took my homework out once he collected it and ripped it up in front of the class I got pissed off. I grabbed all of my books and stuff then went to my guidance counselor and told her I had to get out of that class. She looked at my grades in math then said I should of been taking algebra. I told her what I had been told before, that I couldn't take algebra because I didn't know how to do square roots, but she said you learn to do them in algebra. Again I got so pissed off, if I had been allowed to take algebra in 7th grade I could of taken AP Calculus in high school.

Falcon

Re:And this is how...

[Reality Master 101]

Right now US schools are churing out corporate zombies that are discouraged from taking "uncool" and "too hard" classes like math and science. The Chineese and Indians are slowly surpassing Americans in talent and ability, while US schools are focusing on turing out MBAs.

Only if you think "school", which is only loosely correlated with "education", is the key to a successful future.

Sooner or later, they will realize that they don't need the US to manage them, and will proceed to cut us out of the loop and leave us with a bunch of middle-manager types that don't produce anything besides TPS reports.

I don't know about you, but the biggest drones I've ever known have been the types get the straight As and live to regurgitate information on school tests. Every decade we have stories like this about other countries that are going to surpass the United States because of how much better they can cough up answers on tests (the stories have been happening since AT LEAST the early 70s in my memory). And yet, it never seems to happen.

Why? I'll tell you why. And apologies in advance for this generalization. I know there are exceptions, but here is where the kernel of truth lies:

F-C students are the drones of the world. The A students are the ones good at memorizing, yet become drones when they get into the real world, because memorization only takes you so far. The B-B+ students tends to be the ones that are cruising through on their way to somewhere else. They don't care enough about school to get As, but are smart enough to get Bs without working hard.

It's in the middle where you have the smart AND creative people. They are the ones that move the world. Say what you want about the United States, but the one thing we do well is breed independence. You can't teach that, it's cultural. It has to be bred early.

Re:It's than the Summary makes out

[albalbo]

If you look at the base on the Chinese diagram, AD == 2 and DC = 2rt(3). Divide by 2, gives you 1 and rt(3). By Pythagoras, AC**2 == 1**2 + rt(3)**2 == 2, therefore AC == 2.

So it's a 1/rt(3)/2 triangle, which is exactly that "30, 60, 90 crap". I actually didn't find a single "unusual" angle in there (aside from the construction in the last question).

It might be less obvious, but the math is basically the same.

Re:It's than the Summary makes out

[TheManifold]

Right. I'm an English student, 18 years old, moving onto University this year. I've just finished the Maths A2 syllabus (advanced level). The last topic we did in pure mathematics was three dimensional vectors. I've just glanced at the question, but if I'm not mistaken, the first proof requires the following vector law: |a||b|cosx = a_1*b_1 + a_2*b_2 + a_3*b_3 ... Where |n| is the modulus of the direction vector of the vector equation and modulus being the square root of the sum of the three squared position vectors Where a_n, b_n is the corresponding coordinates of the vectors And x is the angle of the intersection of the two position vectors, so proof would mean x = 90, therefore cos90 = 0, so you're proving that a_1*b_1 + a_2*b_2 + a_3*b_3 = 0 Mathematics in Advanced Level can actually be very involved. Integration by substitution involve trigonometric identities. The article talks about Chemistry students and a lack of maths knowledge. I think the problem may lie, judging from my Chemistry advanced level classes, in the fact that a lot of my class mates expect to be spoon fed right answers to questions. They don't like to think on the subject. They become deceived into thinking that Chemistry is just learning reagents and conditions and what goes where, and then subsequently move onto Uni thinking that there will be more of the same when in fact there is more inductive/deductive reasoning. More maths. In terms of maths skills needed in the sciences, Physics > Chemistry > Biology

Re:It's than the Summary makes out

[VendettaMF]

As a teacher in China (private school, the only time I got into the public schools is when I was training the Chinese teachers) I can safely and solidly say that the Chinese education system "sucks".

No time is given to thought or creation. Everything (Really, everything!) is rote memorization. If Chinese students from the same high school are asked to write an essay on a topic then you get back multiple exact copies of an essay that almost (but not quite) fits the designated title, with varying opening and closing sentences used to shoehorn the text into compliance. Parents and students are often angry and puzzled when I grade such items lowly as the essay is one of the approved ones issued by the schools. Exceptional cases aside the students are usually unable to summarize, explain or answer questions on the essay they have just handed in.

This is not even a matter of bad teachers or bad textbooks. It is a cultural belief that knowledge comes from studying the past. That new is lesser and that all answers can be (must be) learned from the legendary sages of the deep past.

Mathematics is marginally more progressive in that textbooks are updated, but even so the students are given proofs to memorize and regurgitate on the test papers.

I am no longer asked to give training sessions for the English teachers of the local schools ever since I flatly refused to acknowledge any benefit in their efforts to teach students English by giving them phonetic books of (badly written, unattributed, incoherent) English short stories and poems to memorize, interspersed with the recitation of English grammar rules in Chinese.

Re:It's than the Summary makes out

[wongn]

Sorry, but I abhor this article, and using these two questions to judge the quality of their respective country's education systems is just stupid. There are no specifics there whatsoever about how hard the respective questions are seen to be. The question from a first year British University course is a low end question which would be set to check a baseline of mathematical knowledge in the undergrads, something that the examiner fully expect everyone to correctly answer. Because it's a University diagnostic question, I also doubt that cost saving when it comes to marking was ever a deciding factor. Equally, we don't know if the pre-entry question from China was aimed at the brightest or dumbest of students, though I'd guess closer to the top end. My point is that it would have taken only a different spin and different questions (say, from the STEP papers, which are also pre-entry examination papers for Cambridge/Warwick maths applicants) to make a story about how British education was much better than maths schooling in China - only it wouldn't make as good a story.