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Why Are T1 Lines Still Expensive?

badfrog asks: "Over the last 10 years, DSL and cable modem has upped its speed (although in some instances only slightly) and dropped its price. However, the price of a T1 has stayed almost exactly the same. If you had asked me 10 years ago, I would have predicted any geek that wanted to would have fiber or their own T1 line to the house by now. What is with this sad state of affairs that a 'business class' 1.544Mbit connection is hundreds of dollars more than a 6Mbit cable connection? Is it a legitimate case that a high upload rate should increase cost so significantly?"

21 of 556 comments (clear)

  1. Oh, come on! by jawtheshark · · Score: 5, Informative

    Why do you even ask this question?

    The difference is clear. A T1 guarantees you your bandwidth. Both DSL and Cable do not. You usually get it, but that is only because others only use a fraction of what they are "allowed" to. Look in your TOS, you'll see that they do not guarantee the speeds, they are "averages". So essentialy, your ISP pays for 100Mbps and sells 5000Mbps to 1000 customers (Each 5Mbps, but in reality they get only 0.1Mbps). (Numbers pulled out of my you know what). If everyone would start downloading like crazy at the same time you'd get congestions. The fact is that it's not the bandwith that is interesting with DSL/Cable but the fact that it is always-on.

    When DSL started here, it was only 256kbps/64kbps for quite a lot of money. We made the calculation compared to our average ISDN Internet usage (that was per minute) and the price would be the same or slightly higher. Sure, the higher speed was appealing, but the fact that we knew we payed a flat-fee for unlimited interet usage and always-on made it more attractive. That was why we were early adopters, not because it was faster. After all the ISDN 64kbps was plenty of fast back then. It did change our internet habits though: checking the email in business hours was a no-no. We started to check our mail after waking up ;-)

    I heared that in Italy you can get a T1 for cheap, but I'm sure it comes with no guarantee.

    --
    Ahhh...the great dumpster continuum. Many a free computer will be found there. -- sowth (748135)
    1. Re:Oh, come on! by macx666 · · Score: 4, Informative

      I'm not sure when you last looked, but you are not always guaranteed your provider will not oversubscribe you for a T1. In fact, this is regular practice that your ISP does oversubscribe.

      As far as the prices, one reason is that a T1 requres more phone circuits whereas DSL only uses 1. Each circuit gets charged taxes and surcharges, so it is no surprise the cost hasn't come down quite as much.

    2. Re:Oh, come on! by mknewman · · Score: 4, Informative

      There is another issue here, both Cable and DSL are "Internet Connections" where a T1 is a point to point connection, not tied to an ISP. The T1 (T3, SONET, etc) is a telco service, which in many cases is used internally in a business not tied to the Internet at all. That said, most telcos are now running ATM backbones, and all the traffic, be it voice, data or Internet flows through that backbone. You have many choices for connections now. BTW, I have fiber in my house, from the days when I ran an ISP. I had T1, ATM DS3, and lots of analog lines. Bell installed a large blue cabinet to run a SONET to support the ATM DS3 over SONET on fiber.

    3. Re:Oh, come on! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Informative

      Disclaimer: I work in the Telecom industry.

      Pricing is based on two government agencies:
      1) FCC (Federal)
      2) PUC (Local)

      Also please keep in mind that cable and dsl do not guarantee speeds from that connection. In addition; T1's speeds are symmetrical while dsl and cable are asymmetrical; hence the difference in uploading and downloading. One final thought is quality of service; there is are strict SLA's in place for T1's; while cable and dsl get pretty much get away with varying types of service.

      If you want a cheaper T1; look at PUC pricing instead of FCC pricing. Talk to your provider about UNE types of service.

      PS: UNE = Unbundled Network Element.
      Regards

    4. Re:Oh, come on! by v1 · · Score: 4, Informative

      A T1 doesn't guarantee anything... it isn't anything. It's just a pipe. Typically a T goes either between offices in your business, or between you and your ISP. You still have to pay someone to fill the pipe if you want internet. The big difference appears to be the scale. When a cable co moves in, they run cable all over the place, and when someone subscribes they just jack into their already installed network and there you go. T's require a bit more setup, both on the poles and at the central office. Where they send out Bubba to install your cable modem (drill a 1/4" hole in your floor usually, so much for "professional installation") then they tap a few keys at the office and bam you have cable. It's getting easier now with T1's but it's still not that simple. The T itself does have some guaranteed service though, but that's not so much for the bandwidth it will carry, but for whether or not it will be UP. (uptime for most Ts is well over 95%) Businesses usually are last on the list when a pole gets hit, even after residential customers. Where I worked our pole got nailed and it took us down for about 5 hours, but houses in the area were back up in less than 50 minutes.

      Once you get the T to your ISP you have to pay them to fill the pipe. This can be any amount you are willing to pay for, both upstream and downstream, up to the limit of the line.

      Upstream is the killer though. I run my own web server and mailserver etc so I need upstream, and I pay dearly for it. I have a "business class" DSL line that is 936/1536, compared to the consumer grade 256/1536. For that I pay over three times the cost per month. If they offered 2mbit upstream for more I would probably get it but they don't offer it here. I suspect the upstream is expensive because it is a much more limited resource. To save costs, service providers probably buy only so much upstream and so much downstream. Typical users use what, 92% down and 8% up. Me it's almost the other way around. Because of that they lease say 2000 units of downstream and 250 units of upstream from their provider. If everyone fires up bittorrent etc on their network it kills their upstream and that 250 goes real fast and their customers complain. So they either have to pay for a fatter upstream, or charge more and start capping. Obviously they cap. They go from 95% of their customers being unhappy (slow, long ping times, timeouts) to 5% of their customers being unhappy. (upstream sucks, try emailing mom your new home movie!) Obviously they choose to upset 5% rather than 95%.

      I heared that in Italy you can get a T1 for cheap, but I'm sure it comes with no guarantee.

      well, the T is guaranteed. If you get a 24 (26?) channel digital line you are gonna get 1536 up and down, period. Now what's on the other end of that line, that could be anything. If your ISP has not overbooked its bandwidth and has a sane network arrangement, you can expect 1450 or so both ways in most cases, downloads topping out around 1520'ish. I have not had the displeasure of using an ISP that overbooks yet, but they're out there, I'm sure of it. In that case you might get lower speeds up, down, or both - hard to say. I have never heard an ISP guarantee anything though. If they did, the next flashmob that occurred on CNN with half the country downloading video of the latest terrorist attack, sure enough everyone's download would suck at once and their phone would be ringing demanding a comp'd week of service or something. So I guess you can't blame them for not being able to handle flashmobs.

      Checking my line now,
      Connection Status: Speed (down/up): 1536 / 992 Kbps

      mmm 992 that's faster than last I looked. It's gone up slowly over the last several months, no idea why but I'm not complaining. Rather surprised to see I am only sending about 2x as many packets as I am receiving. But I'm sure the send packets are quite a bit larger than the received ones.

      None of this explains the cost of the functional digital line. I believe

      --
      I work for the Department of Redundancy Department.
    5. Re:Oh, come on! by kalvyn · · Score: 4, Informative

      "Your actual T1 won't go down because of things like rain, nearby lightning, electrical interference, etc."

      That's not entirely true. I worked as a WAN manager for a while and maintained our WAN links (as the title would suggest ;-) to over 60 different sites spread across the state of MO (we're in the middle of the US :). Everytime we had a severe storm, flash floods, or what-have-you, I would spend the next 24 - 48 hours contacting Sprint Long Distance, MCI, Southwestern Bell, Verizon, and/or CenturyTel trying to get our network links back up. We would always run through the same routine of making sure our sites had power, the equipment was on, etc. Then one phone company would blame it on another because it was a local POP issue, not the overall circuit problem.

      Also, with the ISP's over-subscribing the T1s: those are called shared or fractional T1s. If you're paying for a full T1, then you are getting all 24 channels (or 30 if it's an E1).

    6. Re:Oh, come on! by galenoftheshadows · · Score: 5, Informative

      I sell circuits. Here are the reasons.

      Contrary to popular belief, T-1s are not oversubscribed. A T-1 is guaranteed bandwidth. As well, you're not really paying much for the bandwidth itself, you're paying for the Service Level Agreement (SLA). What that means is that if your circuit goes down, someone's head usually rolls. In other words, you get a reimbursement for your down time, or at least someone who tries to get you back running as soon as possible. As for your DSL/Cable, it really doesn't matter if you're God, you're down for as long as they feel like ignoring your problem.

      T-1s also do not require more "phone circuits" (whatever those are), rather simply a second pair. This does not affect the price, however, it does affect availability. Taxes and surcharges are not on a "per line" basis, but on a "per service" basis. If you're using your T-1 for digital phone, you do pay extra taxes and fees for each active channel. This doesn't really affect IP stuff, since all your channels are bonded in order to provide you your total bandwidth.

      All in all, the difference really boils down to the fact that one is a "business class" service, and one is not, businesses can justify more expense for their IP service if it makes them money, and therefore, providers figure that they can make more money off it, so they charge more.

    7. Re:Oh, come on! by Cramer · · Score: 4, Informative

      Negative. A T1 is two pairs. ("balanced pairs") One TX (+/-) and one RX (+/-). Anything else... Is. Not. A. T1. That said, there are a lot of toys out there to convert a T1 to a "single pair". Everyone I've even seen or heard of was, in fact, a DSL bridge; usually VHDSL, but not always. There's one at both ends in order to provide a true T1 interface. (via either an RJ45 or DB15 connector.)

      Such technology has been popular for about a decade. Copper is expensive realestate. And only so many T1's can be on the same trunk before crosstalk starts screwing up POTS and the other T1's.

    8. Re:Oh, come on! by ivan256 · · Score: 4, Informative

      All in all, the difference really boils down to the fact that one is a "business class" service, and one is not, businesses can justify more expense for their IP service if it makes them money, and therefore, providers figure that they can make more money off it, so they charge more.


      Amazingly, you managed to write that sentence, the first half of which is false, and the second half of which is exactly correct.

      "Businesses can justify more expense for their IP service if it makes them money, and therefore, providers figure that they can make more money off it, so they charge more."

      That's the whole story.

      Some phone companies have figured out that the can actually make more money (sell more circuits) by lowering the price without increasing their costs all that much. Check out Verizon's business Fios. Half the cost of a T1, rapid downtime response, and four times the upstream bandwidth. They've been available in the town I live & work in for just over a year, and they've already installed more than four times the number of them than they had T1s before. Many businesses upgraded from (much cheaper) business DSL, and the cost is now in the range justifiable for a home office. When a tree hits the lines they've got to splice all the wires anyway, so maintenance of the system as a whole is a fixed expense, and the fiber is more reliable than the copper was. The only variable cost is bandwidth.
    9. Re:Oh, come on! by Tmack · · Score: 4, Informative

      Does DSL even use a classic phone circuit? My understanding was that DSL used frequencies unused by voice and was pulled off the line by separate hardware that had nothing to do with a phone circuit. You can get DSL without phone service... Well, sometimes.

      How else does that signal go from the DSL modem to the CO? Yeh, it travels the phonelines. At least from your modem to the nearest DSLAM. The DSLAM filters out that signal and sends it on on a seperate path back through the data circuits.

      T1 Also uses phone lines, though the originating and terminating equipment on the segment from the remote terminal to the customer site are changed to stuff to handle T1 (or HDSL, depending on which is actually used to carry the signal). At the customer end, a box much larger than your standard telco dmarc box is installed containing a "smartjack". Basically it holds a card (Adtran H2TUR normally, with space for 2) that takes the signal from the telco and changes the output to T1. Sometimes it doesnt do anything but strip out the line power as the telco signal is T1 (also called "4wire" or "True" T1), the line power is for the card/repeaters to function. Usually, they send the T1 via some flavor of HDSL and use the smartjack to change it back to T1 signaling. This is a "2wire" T1, which uses only a single pair of copper, same as your standard POTs phone line. Normally, the telco tech will just move the pairs on each end to the new equipment to change it from POTs to T1. If they cant, or the trunk line for that segment has no pairs good enough to carry the signal, they might have to pull a new line... which isnt cheap. T1s are also notorious for wreaking havok on DSL subscribers that happen to share a trunk ;) .

      tm

      --
      Support TBI Research: http://www.raisinhope.org
  2. It's not the speed by Alioth · · Score: 4, Informative

    It's not the speed.

    With a cable modem or ADSL line you'll have no SLA. It'll be "if it breaks, we'll fix it when we get around to it, possibly within three working days". With a T1 or similar line you'll get a service level agreement for a guaranteed rapid fix. If you get DOSsed, you won't just get thrown off the service, they'll work with you to stop the DOS attack etc.

    Also, contention - with ADSL or cable you'll be sharing that bandwidth with perhaps as many as 50 other users. A T1 will be uncontended.

    It's also expected that T1 users will be heavy bandwidth users, which is reflected in the price.

  3. Re:What? by iPaul · · Score: 4, Informative

    Most people in the US are stunned to realize that broadband access is often cheaper and faster in "foreign countries" with greater penetration. Most of my fellow Americans don't realize that compared to not just the UK, France, and Japan, but places like South Korea, we're getting rooked.

    --
    Leave the gun, take the cannoli -- Clemenza, The Godfather
  4. Dedication by David+E.+Smith · · Score: 4, Informative

    I have a few customers with T1s, and they're paying about six times what they'd pay for my company's wireless service (which would be a faster connection to boot). Part of that is the fact that I have to pay the telco for that T1, obviously, but even without that they're still paying a LOT more than they would otherwise.

    However, it's a dedicated connection from us to them. It's not a shared connection at any point (as most cable modem and wireless networks, and some weird DSL networks, are). Until it leaves my network entirely, I do my darnedest to ensure their traffic gets high priority within my network (with QOS and other similar voodoo). There's a dedicated router here, just for them, with a spare ready to be swapped over in about five minutes if the hardware should fail. (Cisco 2500s are down to about twenty bucks on eBay, why NOT have spares?)

    As an aside, every T1 comes with my cell number, which means you get pretty much the best service I'm able to provide. Because I really don't want to be bugged after hours.

    It's not the upload capacity, at least for my customers; they follow normal "small-business" traffic patterns where uploads are about 10% or so of their traffic.

    Maybe some of it is just the novelty/prestige of saying "I have a T1," which sounds impressive because, hey, a lot of folks don't even know what that means. But most of it, I'd wager, is the fact that it's a dedicated, reliable connection (my customers' T1s have about two hours of downtime in the last four years), and sometimes that extra nine is worth it.

  5. Faulty Premise by Tjp($)pjT · · Score: 5, Informative

    The T1 I purchased in 1996 was $2000 roughly from Sprint. Of that $600 was GTE/Verizon's charge for the loop (2 pair). In 1999 I upgraded to a pair of T1 circuits (bonded) the cost was $2300 total, with $300 per loop to Verizon roughly. Then we split our connection and the Sprint T1 of 2002 cost $975 with $180 of that for the Verizon local loop. So the T1 cost has been dropping. But now the product is not in as much demand. In 2005 when we were moving our ISP to a place where bandwidth was cheap (10-60 USD per megabit/sec depending on the provider we'd chose, we reneted space plus got bandwidth and lost the overhead for the redundant power and HVAC (bundled with the space)), then Sprint offered $655 for a T1.

    So T1s have been steadily dropping in price. The local loop charges however are moving upwards as clean copper is getting scarcer in some regions and the install of the box to take fiber and supply a T1 has to be accounted for in the local loop charges now. I have seen deals for $395 all in on the web however. And in the case of Sprint with had a committed information rate of the full T1. The CIR clause will cost a bit on your contract as well.

    --
    - Tjp

    I am in wallow with my inner money grubbing capitalistic pig. ... Oink!

  6. T1 Prices not Changing in 10 Years????? Wrong! by uberzip · · Score: 4, Informative

    Saying that T1 prices haven't changed is crazy. Of course they have changed! 7 years ago my company was paying over $1000 per month for half a t1 (before broadband was really available). Since then we've gone to full T1 for $800 and now a dual bonded T1 at 3mb up and down is at that price. Speakeasy has full T1 for $300 per month. Of course its more expensive as its a guaranteed service , a loop must be brought to your location, and equipment like the dsu is spendy. But saying that the price hasn't changed is ridiculous. The price has changed more than broadband prices in my opinion.

  7. Another major problem by Sycraft-fu · · Score: 5, Informative

    Is that DS-1s are highly flexible. You can provision a DS-1 a number of different ways. For example you could do 4 channels for data (256k) 12 for voice, and 6 as a private link to another office. Well, the hardware on the back end for all that costs money. That's there regardless of if you want it or not. If not, it's not a DS-1 line. Same reason ISDN is expensive. It's not the exact same and isn't as many channels, but it is a similar technology. Even if all you want an ISDN line for is 128k Internet, you are still getting everything else that one implies, which is quite a lot (a BRI ISDN line is two digital phone lines with all the features).

    The old circuit switched digital phone shit is expensive. That's the reason we are moving to all packet switched technologies like VoIP. Much less is needed to run voice, net, video, and VPN over a single link if it is all done over IP. However DS-1 allows all that stuff, but can do it at a lower level. You can break out individual channels and use them for different things.

    If that sounds like it's kinda useless, well, it is these days. It's legacy technology more or less. In 50 years, we'll probably see very little if any of it left. Everything will come over an IP connection, and the lower level will be a simply point-to-point with an ISP. However at this point, if you get DS-1, you are paying for all the other shit. Better to find another technology for the physical and datalink.

  8. Not sure where you buy them, but they're cheap now by jht · · Score: 5, Informative

    When I bought my first T1 back in '99, it was about $1200 per month. It was from Shore.Net (now Primus), and it replaced a more expensive 256k circuit from UUnet. In 2001, I bought a second T1 from Sprint for about $950. Nowadays, I buy them for my clients (usually from Speakeasy) for around $400 or less. I'd say that's a pretty big price drop. A dual bonded T1 (as another poster mentioned) is under $800 - well lower than a single T1 cost a few years ago.

    Sure, DSL is cheaper, but you get what you pay for to a certain point. Most importantly, ADSL is typically restricted to 768k max upload speed (I can get commercial cable Internet with 1.1 upload around here) unless you get SDSL (much pricier), and then you basically have a T1 without the service guarantees.

    --
    -- Josh Turiel
    "2. Do not eat iPod Shuffle."
  9. Re:USE GOOGLE... by AK+Marc · · Score: 4, Informative

    The point of this forum is to generate advertising clicks/views for the owners of this forum.

  10. No telecomm geeks on hand? That's disappointing. by scgops · · Score: 5, Informative

    First, a technical detail. T1 lines send their digital signals over lines with high-current, constant DC power. Without a correspondingly high load resistance, the net effect can send hundreds of DC volts through whatever gets plugged in. Don't believe me? Feel free to stop by my data center, lick your finger, and run it across some T1 cross-connects. That's how a lot of old phone company techs look for vacant pairs on trunk lines. It's a lot faster than busting out a multi-tester.

    Meanwhile, the equipment that phone companies use for T1 lines is, as someone said, expensive. It's also on a 30-year depreciation cycle. Until that cycle is up, don't expect prices to come down much. Some companies, like MCI, have already gone through a bankruptcy and written off a big chunk of that depreciation, so they might be able to do better, but only if they own the gear they're using. Any telco buying capacity from a baby Bell is going to have to pay (and charge you) the going rate.

    Which brings me to the biggest reason for high T1 costs. The price is regulated. T1 lines get billed based on tariff schedules maintained by each state's public utilities commission. That way, small telcos (competitive local exchange carriers, to use the technical term) can theoretically compete with the big guys by selling you comparable service at a comparable price, often by reselling services actually being provided by the baby Bell, with them simply acting as a middle-man.

    For the most part, the price isn't the result of supply and demand, or bandwidth guarantees, or idiots who pay more than they should. It's the result of lobbying by the telco industry. And, being regulated by the government, the price is unlikely to ever go down much. The only real competitive pressure on price is coming from MCI and other telcos that are able to give you a heftier discount because of owning their own infrastructure and having a lower cost burden. The tariff schedules are the same for every T1 within any given geography, regardless of who sells it to you, but some telcos can offer bigger discounts off of the tariffed rate if they have lower overhead costs. The effect of that lower cost structure is most noticeable in "lit" buildings, where telcos have large, SONET multiplexer units inside office buildings aggregating all of the data and voice traffic onto fiber and ensuring it stays on their own network rather than a competitor's. In those locations, the equipment is new, with much more capacity at a much lower cost than the gear used for buildouts in the 1990's. There also aren't any third parties involved insisting on a cut of the action.

  11. difficulty in providing T1 by green1 · · Score: 5, Informative

    I work for a telco, and while I'm not privy to the marketing decisions that go in to the whole thing, I can give the reasoning as I've always seen it.

    T1s do an amazing job, they are rock solid, and work at distances that DSL simply can't, they have guaranteed bandwidth and service level agreements that involve penalties to the telco if they go down. For companies that truly NEED that connection they're irreplaceable.
    All that said, for an awful lot of businesses our DSL packages at 4meg down and 1 meg up are plenty, and a fraction of the cost.

    Now for the reasoning, T1s are a royal pain from the telco side of things, they work so well because they use such high powers to make sure that they are heard (close to 300V instead of 52 for telephone) but this causes all sorts of trouble, due to the crosstalk these things put out every T1 line that's installed reduces the number of ADSL customers we can put in the same cable, one T1 line can easily destroy the ability to carry DSL in the same binder group (25 pairs) and over longer distances or with several T1 lines can wipe out the whole cable for DSL. This is a major problem for us, so if we're going to have to work around these sorts of issues, we want it to be worth our while. that doesn't even go in to factors such as the equipment, a DSL modem costs about $50 or less these days, but a T1 "modem" is in the thousands, same deal with the equipment at the other end of the line, then you add the line conditioning that has to be done on longer lines when provisioning a T1, and the list goes on.

    DSL is a great product, if you don't absolutely need a T1, then by all means take advantage of the fact that DSL lines are dirt cheap these days.
    but when you need a T1 and nothing else will do, don't complain about the cost, it is after all your choice.

  12. Informative? Hah by shadow_slicer · · Score: 5, Informative
    Actually your technical details are somewhat inaccurate:

    T1 lines send digital signals with almost NO current. This is due to the balanced encoding used on the line. There are two primary encodings used in North America (Europe has their own standard): B8ZS and AMI. These encodings ensure that the number of positive signals sent are roughly the same as number of the negative signals sent, resulting in an average DC voltage close to zero. While I don't doubt your anecdote about techs using their fingers to test if a line is live, the signal they experience has more in common with AC than DC.

    The electrical specifications of a T1 show that it uses {-12, 0 12}V DC as the signaling alphabet. This is not the "hundreds of DC volts" you claim (maybe you were confused with the POTS system which uses 90V RMS ringer signal).

    I don't know much about the politics of the system (I've only designed endpoint equipment and had little interaction with customers), but I know your technical details were rather specious. Do you have any evidence to back your other claims?