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Microsoft Games Losses Down, Still Substantial

Even though sales are up on the operating system side of things, Microsoft's games division is still struggling. The Entertainment and Devices division lost $315 million, with sales slipping some 21 percent. That's 22 percent down from last year. The quarter overall saw $929 million, down 21 percent over last year during the same quarter. "Microsoft says the drop in sales came primarily because of decreases in the sale of Xbox 360s. During the quarter, the company shipped a half million consoles, as compared to 1.7 in the third quarter of 2006, that being the first full quarter in which Xbox 360s became available. Sales of Xbox and PC games decreased 44 percent over the company's first three quarters to $393 million, which the company puts hand in hand with the decrease in console sales."

23 of 104 comments (clear)

  1. 1.7 Units Shipped? by VE3OGG · · Score: 3, Funny

    shipped a half million consoles, as compared to 1.7 in the previous quarter


    Man, Japanese sales are really picking up!
    1. Re:1.7 Units Shipped? by CowTipperGore · · Score: 5, Funny

      Those must be metric consoles. Anyone know how to convert this to Asspiles or Shitloads?

    2. Re:1.7 Units Shipped? by misleb · · Score: 2, Funny

      Those must be metric consoles. Anyone know how to convert this to Asspiles or Shitloads?


      The only thing you're going to be measuring in ass piles is physical discomfort.

      -matthew
      --
      "THERE IS NO JUSTICE, THERE IS ONLY ME." -Death
    3. Re:1.7 Units Shipped? by Rolgar · · Score: 2, Interesting
      Forbes posted Japanesse sales numbers for each of the companies for one recent week. The Wii outsold the PS2 & PS3 3:1. It outsold the 360 25:1. The PS3 outsold the 360 almost 4:1.

      Meanwhile, Nintendo has announced an desire to increase production to get the installed base up.

    4. Re:1.7 Units Shipped? by endianx · · Score: 2, Funny

      Whoever only got 70% of his console is probably pissed.

  2. stop the presses! by Judinous · · Score: 2, Informative

    So, the branch that just released a new major product this year is reporting an increase in sales, and the branch that released a new major product last year is reporting a decrease? That's not news, it's common sense.

  3. Umm. by EveryNickIsTaken · · Score: 3, Insightful
    "During the quarter, the company shipped a half million consoles, as compared to 1.7 in the third quarter of 2006, that being the first full quarter in which Xbox 360s became available."

    This console was released in November of 2005, so I'm really not sure how 3rd quarter of 2006 was the first full quarter they became available.

    1. Re:Umm. by fotbr · · Score: 3, Informative

      Fiscal year, not calendar year.

    2. Re:Umm. by peaworth · · Score: 2, Informative

      Uh, yes it does. Micrsoft's fiscal year is defined to run from July 1 - June 30. Therefore, fiscal year 2007 started July 2006 and is July, August, September. For an example of this, see this link:

      tp:wwwmicrosoftmonitorcomarchives200610microsoftfi sca6html
      From the linked article:
      "This afternoon, Microsoft announced results for its fiscal 2007 first quarter, ended September 30."

      So January 1 - March 31, 2006 was their third fiscal quarter for fiscal year 2006.

  4. War of Attrition by Applekid · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Is it normal for game divisions a year+ after their new console is released to still be in the red? Given Nintendo recently just reported record profits and Sony's Playstation division is still hemorraging money, it seems like Nintendo's on track to be the last man standing.

    What's even more nuts to me is that with all the Live Gold subscribers they're still not making enough to offset losses. Are they still hedging all their bets on Halo 3?

    Eggs in 1 basket much?

    --
    More Twoson than Cupertino
    1. Re:War of Attrition by hansamurai · · Score: 5, Informative

      The difference between Nintendo and the other two, is that Nintendo is a games only company. They rely solely on their hardware and software sales. On the other hand, Sony and Microsoft's consoles are just one division of a much larger conglomerate. And that conglomerate can support the other gaming divisions until they finally do get out of the red, or the stock holders, whatever, demand that division to be sold off or folded. Microsoft's gaming/Zune divsion might have lost 300 million dollars, but the company as a whole took in over 14 billion dollars in revenue. I know it can't go on forever, but Microsoft at least, is committed to this industry, for better or worse.

    2. Re:War of Attrition by EMeta · · Score: 2, Insightful
      I think you forget how many PS2's Sony is still selling. 200k a month, easy. PS2 games are still selling like mad too (for evidence: they still hold the plurality of space on game shelves). And they're making a lot of profit on the PS2's since R&D has long been paid off. Their games division hasn't had a bad quarter yet. Now this may yet happen, but they can afford to wait--even without help from the larger company--for a couple more holiday seasons befoer the PS3 itself turns a profit. They're betting that with the decade long tenure of the PS2 that these early years don't matter.

      My silly pointless prediction is that in 3 years we'll still have 3 strong game systems, with perhaps some systems (Wii) winning more than others, but all three being quite profitable. Between there just being more gamers (think China and India's developing middle class) and Wii expanding the market to previously non-gamers (Wiis in retirement homes), I think there's enough market for all three. And I think we, as gamers, are better for it.

    3. Re:War of Attrition by gstoddart · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Is it normal for game divisions a year+ after their new console is released to still be in the red?

      If you're Microsoft, yes. New offerings from them are always cash sinks initally.

      They have routinely used their huge cash reserves to get into a new market -- they lose money for several years until they can climb out and make it profitable (or drop the business).

      You can't compete with a company that has more cash reserves than some countries. For them, it's worth it to burn off money and ride out the competitors. Doesn't seem to make much sense on the surface, but when you can eventually crush your competition, it's been working for them for over a decade.

      However, with Nintendo making an actual profit, MS's strategy of out-waiting the competition might continue to hurt for a while.

      Cheers
      --
      Lost at C:>. Found at C.
    4. Re:War of Attrition by MeanderingMind · · Score: 2, Insightful

      It does indeed sound like Nintendo might be the only winner this generation. That scares me.

      What if they conclude that gamers only want gimmicky games? The next generation would be filled with crazy controllers and half-assed games to play them with.


      You needn't be scared.

      The only companies that might make your assumption are shovelware companies. Few other companies are stupid enough to think that "gimmicky" is good.

      Even if we make the assumption that just about every studio decides that gimmicky is the way of things, that doesn't imply a generation "filled with crazy controllers". At most, we'd see three (one from Sony, one from Microsoft, and one from Nintendo). There might be smoe others (ala Guitar Hero) but the industry certainly wouldn't be "filled".

      If Super Smash Bros: Brawl is any evidence, even Nintendo isn't completely ditching the old modes. The industry is going to change, but it is for the better. Everyone will benefit, whether hardcore or anything else.

      If the Wii had a standard controller as an option, my thoughts might be different, though. I don't need the hyper-realistic graphics on my console. My PC handles that readily. But the Wiimote sucks at standard games. only 2 buttons, placed funny, and the controller is no fun to hold sideways. (I had my doubts before Super Paper Mario, and now I know it's not much fun to hold that way.)


      1) You can use Gamecube controllers with the Wii. If you don't have Gamecube controllers, you can buy the "Classic" controllers.

      2) I've had a lot of fun holding the controller sideways for Super Paper Mario and Excite Truck. I've also had fun playing the original Mario brothers. To each their own I guess.
      --
      Thunderclone: ONE MAN ENTERS! TWO MEN LEAVE! ONE MAN ENTERS! TWO MEN LEAVE!
    5. Re:War of Attrition by aplusjimages · · Score: 2, Funny

      "Are they still hedging all their bets on Halo 3?"

      Yes.

      Which is so sad. Microsoft's BIG first party game, Halo 3, that is supposed to be their key to winning the console market:

      * Only supports 16 players per game - pathetic compared to the current best console online game Resistance with 40

      * No dedicated servers - Sony and PS3 developers have free dedicated servers for games

      * An archaic P2P networking setup that leads to laggy online play

      * Looks like a slightly upgraded version of Halo 2 on the Xbox

      * And to make things even worse you are forced to pay 60 bucks a year just to play the game online

      Microsoft isn't banking on Halo 3 alone. Plus none of the stuff you stated is confirmed yet. Bungie is known for lying about what will be in their next game. They even lied about working on a Halo 3 game. The P2P networking is obviously not a deterrent because on average about 40,000 people play Halo 2 each day. Let's see resistance pull those numbers 2 years from now.
      --
      Can I bum a sig?
    6. Re:War of Attrition by badasscat · · Score: 5, Interesting

      The difference between Nintendo and the other two, is that Nintendo is a games only company. They rely solely on their hardware and software sales. On the other hand, Sony and Microsoft's consoles are just one division of a much larger conglomerate. And that conglomerate can support the other gaming divisions until they finally do get out of the red, or the stock holders, whatever, demand that division to be sold off or folded.

      What you say is true, but it didn't answer the question that was asked, which is whether or not it's normal for a console to be in the red at this point in its lifespan.

      The short answer is no, it is not normal. And despite your true statement above, that's important. Why?

      MS and Sony both got into video gaming in the first place both because they saw how profitable it was and because they saw the potential for even greater profit through using their systems as a trojan horse for other entertainment and software possibilities. Do you think that either company would have launched a console in the first place if they saw the industry as a money-losing business? Obviously not. They did it because they wanted a piece of the action, and they wanted to define where the action was in the future.

      The issue is that neither Sony nor MS has figured out how to make a consistent profit in the video games business. MS has never done it, to my knowledge (possibly one quarter with the original Xbox) and Sony does it about half the time. Nintendo always makes a profit. The only question is how big.

      If this keeps up, eventually Sony and MS could drag the industry so far down that it's not going to seem worth it to their shareholders or to any of their potential partners, be they publishers or peripheral makers or whatever. Nobody's going to want to be involved in the game business if it seems obvious that it's a money-losing business.

      I actually own all 4 previous-gen consoles and would like to own a PS3, but I honestly think that without Nintendo, we would have had another game industry crash by now. They're single-handedly defining the industry right now, in both home and portable systems, and they're proving to everybody how much money there is to be made at it. Without them, you'd have a money-losing industry that would look to anybody on the outside like the industry itself was no longer viable.

  5. It's not about the money - except when it is by Dark+Paladin · · Score: 5, Interesting

    This is an interesting problem for Microsoft. Yes, we know - they can burn through this money and not lose it, they can take billion dollar losses every year on the Xbox and not care, blah, blah, blah - but sooner or later, profits *do* matter to your bottom line.

    What I'm curious about is how the long run of Microsoft's console wars might end up hurting the company overall. It used to be that people stayed on Windows for 3 reasons:

    1. It's what the office uses/proprietary apps I need
    2. I need Microsoft Office
    3. Games

    Of all of these reasons, the #1 thing I heard from tech people for why they stayed on Windows - or at least kept a dual booting system - was for the games. Once consoles started on their rise, MS realized that this was a serious long term threat to the monopoly. Hence, the Xbox was born. This way, even if techie people go "Well, I stay with Windows for the games", at least MS would have a console of their own to ply.

    Now, they're trying to tie in Windows into this gaming concept. Look at Vista, and the "won't run without an ESRB rating" issue some games have had a problem with - a "safety" issue says Microsoft, but a lock-in system says I. Now their Windows Live, which is the Xbox Live system on Windows - again, another method to try to tie in Windows and consoles, and establish a lock in. Or the "Halo 2 (a game made using Windows 2000 computer hardware level technology) can't run on your computer unless you run Vista with Windows Live", a move that I don't see a whole lot of gamers going "OOooo - I get to pay $200 for an OS to run a 3/4 year old game when I could buy the original Xbox version with a new Xbox from a store for the same price". It's an expensive move that so far, hasn't caught on. They're now trying to tie Vista in the Xbox, hoping to shore up both.

    It seems a lot of money spent that, so far, is only costing them more. They lose more money with each Xbox sold. So how to make it up? Charge more on the Microtransactions, which leads to expensive "horse armor" and gamers who rebel against the cost of Guitar Hero II downloads for being way overpriced.

    I can give credit to Microsoft for making a decent console (when it doesn't "red ring of death" on people - is that the equivalent of a blue screen of death?), but it seems like they're fighting for a Pyhrric victory. If this is their idea of success, then the rest of the Microsoft company had better hope that this brand of billion-dollar-per-year losing "success" doesn't infiltrate the rest of the company.

    Of course, that's just my opinion. I could be wrong.

    1. Re:It's not about the money - except when it is by suv4x4 · · Score: 3, Insightful

      This is an interesting problem for Microsoft. Yes, we know - they can burn through this money and not lose it, they can take billion dollar losses every year on the Xbox and not care, blah, blah, blah - but sooner or later, profits *do* matter to your bottom line.

      You don't really know how it affects their bottom line until you see the whole picture. All of their side business - how much money it made them in.. Windows sales? It's not so obvious is it.

      Integration and convenience provides a natural lock-in effect. Microsoft knows that the way the industry is going, its Windows application lock-in is weaking last few years, and it's a trend that'll continue in the future.

      What they do, all the time, is create plenty and plenty of auxiliary businesses that act like pathways leading in one way or another, to Windows. They can lose billions from XBox 360 every year and not care, but NOT because they've got money to waste, but because it helps them support their Windows market share.

      It's similar to what Google, is doing last few years too. In lots of their free offerings they don't serve ads, Gmail pop3 access, Google News, Google Desktop Search, Picassa etc. So they don't turn profit there, they lose, because there's development and deployment cost for all this. But one way or another, indirectly, it brings you back to searching in Google more often, or watching their ads, which helps their bottom line.

    2. Re:It's not about the money - except when it is by grumbel · · Score: 3, Insightful

      One thing to keep in mind is that the Xbox360 is not just a game console, but basically the PC for the living room. You already can buy movies via XBoxLive and things might expand quite a bit in that area in the future. So the thing goes beyond games and that might be why Microsoft is willing to take some loss on the thing, since the "living room PC" is still a mostly unconquered market waiting for somebody to take it.

    3. Re:It's not about the money - except when it is by Frag-A-Muffin · · Score: 4, Insightful

      since the "living room PC" is still a mostly unconquered market waiting for somebody to take it.

      Who says there is a market? Small niche market so far, what happens if it stays that way? HP has already stopped making their "living room PC". Maybe they have better foresight than others? I know from an anecdotal stand point, there's no market for such a device in my home :) I want appliances that just do their thing, and do it well, and for a reasonable cost. There's a reason why so many people have DVD players. a) It's cheap and accessible. b) it's dead simple to use. c) There's easily accessible content that can be purchased or rented

      --

      AirSpeak - http://itunes.com/apps/AirSpeak
  6. So do people still think MS sells the 360 4profit? by bestinshow · · Score: 4, Insightful

    How, in this day and age, can a website have such a short limit on the subject line for a post?

    Anyway, nearly a year ago iSupply claimed that Microsoft were making a profit on each console sold. This figure has been repeated ever since then, especially in relation to the PS3's huge loss per console. Yet the figures were weird, the console hadn't changed, no cost reductions applied, and iSupply thought it had gone from a $150 loss per console to a $70 gain. But people were very happy to accept this figure.

    Now Microsoft's gaming (and music) division has made a $300+m loss for 500k sold, and presumably they're getting profits from online use, the games themselves (the attach rate is rising), and add-ons. Of course the Zune and other products are dragging them down too, and there's wages and future developments and all that...

    Also 500k sold in a quarter, albeit a quiet quarter, is appalling at this stage in the game. You would think that if Microsoft COULD drop the price, they would have, to stimulate demand. But they didn't.

    So in conclusion, I suspect Microsoft are still making losses on the 360 console, probably in the $100 per console ballpark. 65nm shrinks are really required - cheaper chips, cheaper cooling, cheaper power supply. I expect the 65nm introduction to coincide with a $50 pricedrop, and a static loss/console rate.

  7. Re:So do people still think MS sells the 360 4prof by iainl · · Score: 3, Insightful

    The 360 is supposed to be making a profit. If the estimates for the frequency they would need replacing had been correct. It's that, and the lower-than-expected sales numbers that caused the problem for the machine.

    But yes, a dead-in-the-water Zune and associated marketplace are a big factor, too.

    --
    "I Know You Are But What Am I?"
  8. Xbox is the ammo, not the war by Alzheimers · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Microsoft is embattled in a war for the entertainment market. They've won the office, but they're getting their asses handed to them in the living room and bedrooms of the world. Companies like Sony, Nintendo and Apple are vying for a huge chunk of change that's spent on music, movies and games. A chunk Microsoft wants a piece of.

    The XBox is their foot in the door. It's not going to make Microsoft the dominant force in our living rooms, but with consoles taking on a more PC-esque feel they have every indication that their being left behind in a big way. If they don't do something, anything, to get themselves into the market now then when the tide turns and the choice for a home computer isn't between Dell or HP but a PS3 or a AppleTV, Microsoft needs to have their chips in place to have any stake at all in the new landscape.

    And for that, they're willing to lose the few hundred million a quarter in the short term.