Linus Responds To Microsoft Patent Claims

An anonymous reader writes "Linus Torvalds has a sharp retort to Microsoft executives' statements in a Fortune article that Linux violates 235 Microsoft patents. In an emailed response to InformationWeek's Charlie Babcock, Torvalds writes: 'It's certainly a lot more likely that Microsoft violates patents than Linux does.' He added: 'Basic operating system theory was pretty much done by the end of the 1960s. IBM probably owned thousand of really "fundamental" patents... The fundamental stuff... has long, long since lost any patent protection.'" Torvalds also commented on Microsoft's stated intention not to sue Linux users: "They'd have to name the patents then, and they're probably happier with the FUD than with any lawsuit."

Comments

Sad or Telling?

[u-bend]

Is it kind of sad that such retorts are necessary? Or is it telling, that M$ is continues to resort to such SCO-like tactics?

Re:Sad or Telling?

[cyphercell]

I hope that it's telling, after all Microsoft is essentially following tactics from IBM a company that is not, primarily in the software industry. They have essentially hired IBM's patent lawyer, Marshall Phelps

Re:Sad or Telling?

[MightyMartian]

I think we all know that the kernel is probably safe; except for some of the drivers. I'll wager that Microsoft is eying FAT and NTFS. Still, it's awfully easy to fix that. Just distribute a kernel without those drivers in the source, and just let someone outside the US distribute the patches, compiled modules, as well as compiled kernels. Is Microsoft seriously going to demand that everyone turn over their kernels to check whether the FAT file system support is compiled into it?

The problem here is not that MS would ever dream of going to court, it's that the FUD could be very effective at slowing adoption. I suspect that if anything, it's OpenOffice that would feel the wrath of being dragged into court. Going after the kernel is ludicrous, and would likely turn up absolutely nothing.

Re:Sad or Telling?

[Anonymous Coward]

Is it kind of sad that such retorts are necessary?

Unfortunately, the damage is done. I work for a large financial organization that was *just* venturing outside of Microsoft operating systems and the lawyers sent out a notice today that we are to remove all traces of "open source" software, effective immediately.

I suspect that lots of organizations were in such a boat and Microsoft played their cards accordingly.

Re:Sad or Telling?

[cayenne8]

"Is Microsoft seriously going to demand that everyone turn over their kernels to check whether the FAT file system support is compiled into it?"

Is compatibility even an issue here? I thought you could reverse engineer or the equivalent thereof, to make systems compatible. Isn't this even one of the tennents of the DMCA? I know that isn't really patent related, but, is it against the patent law to interoperate with another system?

Re:Sad or Telling?

[Dan Ost]

Why not take some time to write a well reasoned response that you can send up the management chain and to the legal department. Point out how your company is currently benefiting from open source and how painful it would be to replace the open source currently in your infrastructure.

This is an opportunity to educate. Don't waste it.

Linus, Linux, IBM, and patents

[symbolic]

I'm not clear how IBM could own thousands of patents back in the 1960s- at that time it was clearly understood that software is a non-patentable "invention". Oh how I wish this common sense would be restored.

Why not start debunking FUD now?

[digitalderbs]

This is an innocent question. If the OSS community is ready to debunk these patents, do we really need Microsoft to reveal which of the 235 patents/infringements they're talking about? Couldn't we start a site/database that organizes all of Microsoft's patents and start documenting prior art and such for each. The patents themselves aren't hidden :

Microsoft's patents (6723 patents)
Microsoft's UI patent (155 patents)
(for example)

Why not start debunking the FUD to prove how spurious their claims are? Is it because this would be too much work? (Admittedly, 6723 >> 235)

If it could it would

[Recovering Hater]

But Microsoft can't actually bring the heat on any of the claims. For example: Gutierrez also said Microsoft is not likely to publicly list which specific patents it believes are infringed upon by open source software. "We're not going to have a discussion publicly with that level of detail," he said.

It seems to me that it is just more noise from a blowhard company that is losing steam in the arena of operating systems. Sound and fury signifying nothing. Too bad the general public won't recognize it for what it is.

Past infringement?

[KarmaMB84]

Assuming MS really does have valid patents, how could just rewriting the code prevent Microsoft from seeking royalties for past infringement? Why does Linus think that Microsoft can't have patented anything that might be in the Linux kernel now just because basic operating system theory was done in the 1960s? Surely Linux 2.6.x is more modern than 1960s technology, right?

Re:Past infringement?

[MightyMartian]

Software developers do not read patents.

And that's the saddest thing about software patents. I'll wager you won't find any non-trivial code that doesn't trample on some software patent. I doubt you could write anything over a few thousand lines long that wouldn't violate some software patent by somebody. If this continues too much longer, law schools will have to start turning out lawyers who can read C, C++, Java, C# and x86 assembly.

Comment removed

[account_deleted]

Comment removed based on user account deletion

Re:constitutional lawyers?

[whoever57]

- Science must be making progress in order to be promoted. DRM is regression of rights, thus it cannot be protected. - Arts must be useful to be protected. I doubt entertainment can be considered "useful" in the way that was meant when the Constitution was written.

You are applying logic to laws. Never works. In this case, I think you will find that the sole judge of how the laws meet the goal is Congress. I think this came out in the challenge to the Sonny Bono/Mickey Mouse copyright extention. The SCOTUS decided that it was up to Congress to decide how best to promote the "useful arts", and if Congress felt that it was best achieved by locking up our cultural heritage, then so be it. One would also expect that SCOTUS would hold that it was up to Congress to decide what constitutes a "Useful Art", since that it a preamble to the actual phrase that authorizes Congress to create copyright laws.

Essentially what I am saying is that the part "To promote the progress of science and useful arts" is meaningless and the only important part of that section is: "by securing for limited times to authors and inventors the exclusive right to their respective writings and discoveries;"

Re:Heavens, the breaking news!

[MightyMartian]

The problem is that Linus's comments hold no more weight with XYZ Inc.'s legal department, who are by now recommending that the IT department's move to transfer file sharing from an expensive Server 2003 farm to license-free Samba network be suspended indefinitely. Sure, the guys in the IT department know as well as Linus, you or I that Microsoft is playing a dirty game, but Microsoft doesn't give a shit about Linus, you or I, but about the lawyers and officers of the companies that are actually considering Linux boxes with Samba and OpenOffice running on them.

Do you think it's an accident that OpenOffice was the only OSS project specifically named? Put this in the perspective of MS fighting various governments to stop OpenOffice file formats from becoming the defacto document standards. Hey hey Mr. Massachussetts, that document standard your talking about, well the baseline software that produces it violates a bunch of our patents. Now the talking heads that get into public meetings will have a new and very potent tool in the arsenal, the threat of legal repurcussions if a switch to open software is made.

Accusation - substantiation = slander

[KFury]

If Microsoft publicly declares that Linux violates patents but won't disclose those patents it seems Microsoft would be guilty of slander. Clearly they're trying to make businesses think twice about buying into OSS solutions by giving the perception that those OSS solutions could be illegal.

Just raising the threat is enough to swing business into MS's camp. Without a single company to take point and sue MS for slander they'll get away with it.

Re GoodWay:Sad or Telling?

[OldHawk777]

Also, M$ is possibly seeking mutual indemnification from theft of property prosecution. If M$ can press the Linux Foundation and FSF-GPL+ to provide such a settlement, then they are safe from being financially raped, forced to release M$ products to F/LOSS-GPL, or destroyed by forcing removal of all OSS-GPL copyrights protected code from M$ products.

So, who will be the first to flinch in this obvious game of chicken/standoff. I suspect, that M$ is looking to be another dickless empty SCOrotum.

I ain't good enough with code, but I will continue to put some loss money on the Linux Foundation, FSF-GPL, EFF .... It is a very good idea to start loading the evidence weapon that will put a through&through hole in M$. I mean we may as well help them commit economic suicide. Work with the Linux Foundation folks ... I will be sending them a couple hundred more $ this year for the TEK-War. I hope I can get a hat that says I supported the F/LOSS troops in battle against the M$techno-fascist.

!HAVEFUN!