A Windows-Based Packaging Mechanism

FishWithAHammer writes "As part of my Google Summer of Code project, I'm working with WinLibre to develop a Debian-like software download system for free/open source software on the Windows platform. My reasoning is that open source software suffers from poor presentation. Most computer laymen, even those aware of open source software, often don't have any idea how to go about looking for it, but would use it if it were easier to access. What I have proposed is both a Debian-style packaging mechanism (capable of using Windows Installer MSIs or not, as the user wishes) and a software 'catalog' that takes the best aspects of Synaptic and Linspire's Click-N-Run system. Seamless, simple installation and removal of programs in as straightforward a way as apt-get (there will be a command-line tool as well). I'm posting to Slashdot to get the ideas of you lot who, while you may not be the target audience, can certainly provide insights that can be of value." Read on for more of this reader's ideas and questions.

There are areas that I'm personally not familiar with, and while I have done some research I would like the opinions of Slashdotters on some others. While at first I intend to set it up so that WinLibre (and I) run only one repository, I am curious as to how this sort of tool could be most useful to network administrators. Customizable repositories will be available; the code will be under the GPL, after all, so it'd be a little hard for them not to be available.

I'm also interested in the ideas of those who might be in a position to roll together packages. I intend to package a number of open-source language interpreters with the core software to allow special pre- and post-install scripts, as well as removal scripts. C#Script, Perl, and Python are definites, as is a Cygwin sh interpreter. We will have some program requirements — chief among them that no registry changes may be made by the program — but some of them, I fear, will require some flexibility; some programs really do require a way to edit the registry, for example, and I am considering offering some sort of tracked way to make registry changes so they can be rolled back on uninstallation of the program.

I'd love to hear what Slashdotters think of this. Think of it as a wishlist, but you don't get any damn ponies.

Ed Ropple (FishWithAHammer)"

Comments

It's the package selection process

[zedman]

That's great of course, but it's the community and a selection of packages with mutually consistent packaging metadata which make systems like Debian and their derivatives so popular. The packaging system itself is an enabling technology.

Re:It's the package selection process

[babbling]

Why are you kidding? That's actually a very good point, I think.

If GNU/Linux was the only operating system that had applications like Firefox, OpenOffice, VLC, and so on, I think it would be a much more attractive option than Windows is. Yet, we've ported some of our best applications to the proprietary Windows platform, and as a consequence of this there is less incentive for Windows users to become users of Free Software operating systems.

I'm not necessarily saying that these ports shouldn't take place, but I think we should be aware of the fact that porting a great application to Windows does lessen the incentive for Windows users to make the switch.

Re:It's the package selection process

[maxwell demon]

If the explicit goal of an application programmer was to move people to Linux, the ideal strategy would probably be as follows:

1. Port the application to Windows
2. Get people addicted to it (that's the hardest part).
3. Make sure that new developments are always available on Linux first (so that there's a real incentive to switch to Linux).
4. At some time, introduce Linux-only features.
5. After enough users have switched to Linux, drop Windows support.
6. ???
7. Profit!

(Sorry, the last two lines just had to come! :-))

Of course the problem with this plan is that starting from step 4 on, it's virtually impossible to do with FOSS: If you don't implement those features on Windows, likely someone else will do. And if you drop Windows support, probably someone else will take over (remember, as of step 2, it's a popular application).

Re:It's the package selection process

[Rakishi]

The biggest barrier to switching for many users is that they won't be able to use their old apps on the new OS. This solves that problem.

Re:It's the package selection process

[Anonymous Coward]

why do we have to push Linux on people? I'm a massive Linux fan, but I use windows as my main desktop mainly due to games but I use a lot of open source tools on my windows machine. main two being audacity and Firefox and if I was forced to use linux as my main desktop because I couldn't get these apps on windows frankly would annoy me as much as Microsoft does with there windows only programs.

That type of mentally will do more damage to the open source movement then anything else.

Re:It's the package selection process

[suv4x4]

If GNU/Linux was the only operating system that had applications like Firefox, OpenOffice, VLC, and so on, I think it would be a much more attractive option than Windows is. Yet, we've ported some of our best applications to the proprietary Windows platform, and as a consequence of this there is less incentive for Windows users to become users of Free Software operating systems.

"We've ported to Windows"? Who the heck are ya?

Firefox, based on the XUL platform, which from the very beginning was designed to be multi-platform.
It has evolved from the proprietary Netscape before were also inherently multi-platform from the very start.

OpenOffice, evolved from the proprietary StarOffice, inherently multiplatform.

As for VLC, why exactly not having this one on Windows makes Linux any better. Can't Windows play Windows Media files? Does it lack a hundred of other players?

And I have another question for you: who do you think make products like Firefox popular. It's Windows users. The majority of people out there run Windows. It's when people started installing Firefox on their Windows machines, that the stats went up, and Firefox started to matter.

If Firefox never existed on Windows, do you think anyone but geeks would care for it? If you're thinking what answer might be, look no further from Konqueror: who the hell (but geeks) cared about this one browser which was only available on Linux, BEFORE Apple took their code and turned it in WebKit/Safari?

Re:It's the package selection process

[morgan_greywolf]

why do we have to push Linux on people? I'm a massive Linux fan, but I use windows as my main desktop mainly due to games but I use a lot of open source tools on my windows machine. main two being audacity and Firefox.

Actually, this brings up a very good point. For some applications like Audacity, the preferred platform may actually be Linux, or more specifically, distros that are aimed at being a professional audio/video workstation like Ubuntu Studio, which includes a low-latency kernel tuned for A/V work and dozens of audio tools that are only available on *nix. Audacity may work on Windows, but I've used it on both platforms and I much prefer to work with it on a low-latency-optimized Linux setup, right beside applications like Ardour with a plugin architecture like JACK.

Re:It's the package selection process

[westlake]

Windows' shaky foundations constitute the main incentive for Windows users to make the switch

The Microsoft platform can't be that shaky if Apple hasn't been able to get and hold 10% of the market in damn near twenty-five years.

Registry

[VE3OGG]

I would say the big thing that I would look for in such a product would be a consistent (or even better, non-existent) use/removal of registry entries. I have dealt with so many so-called "professionally" done software pieces that upon uninstallation would leave several dozen registry entries. This seems terribly unnecessary, and if the so-called apt-get method could circumvent the registry (much like the run from USB flash drive programs) altogether, or at least make it a sure-fire thing to remove, instead of wipe-and-pray.

Good on you for trying to better the system man, I wish you the best of luck!

Re:Security, security, security.

[KiloByte]

Uhm, let's compare signed repositories with grabbing those programs you need from websites, and quite a few of them use random services like download.com.
Quite a step forward in my book.

Cygwin packaging

[julesh]

I hope you're planning on making it interoperate with the cygwin packaging system. Cygwin's a great piece of software which is, IMO, let down by its obscure and difficult-to-use setup program. A new, friendlier way of installing and updating cygwin components would be a great asset. And if it worked with other OSS stuff as well, that would be a huge asset.

One thing I would suggest is that you make it easy for somebody to package a standalone .exe that doesn't require your system, but which can interoperate with your system easily -- perhaps by having a version of your system that can wrap up a package with a copy of the relevant parts of itself in a .exe file.

Re:A lot of work, but simple, conceptually...

[Rakishi]

Uhh, lets see now. With a linux type package manager I could:
-Actually install MySQL, PHP and Apache easily without having to use a third party package that holds them all. Yeah, windows is sure free of dependencies. Just great especially when your programs are inherently dependent on each other, oh wait no its a pain in the ass.
-Download whatever packages I need without needing to deal with searching the web for the place to download this from. The whole find, download install file, run install file thing gets annoying pretty quickly. Especially when you have a bunch of software to download.
-Queue uninstalls, god damn do I hate the fucking windows uninstaller where you need to uninstall, wait,uninstall next item. Thats not even counting how it fucking breaks in one way or another after a while on most systems I've used.