Online Reputation Is Hard To Do

Symblized writes "A new article from InformationWeek argues that not only does the Web need ways to verify identity, it also needs better ways to measure reputation . The article uses Digg, Wikipedia, and eBay as examples and muses whether their models could be applied more widely. There's also a profile of Opinity, a company that tried to introduce a reputation system and didn't make it. Choice quote from a source in the article: 'The idea of a transferable, semantic reputation is identity nirvana.'"

Comments

Trust is the currency

[Raindance]

"Trust is the currency of the participation age." -Jonathan Schwartz

This is the $64,000 question. Building a reputation/trust system is very difficult. Honestly, Slashdot is one of the better examples of this (Slashdot's moderation system does alter the flow of the discussion but it does get a downright reasonable signal-to-noise ratio vs other online communities).

I'm volunteering at Citizendium, which is another possible datapoint. We're assuming that real names and respecting verifiable expertise will allow us to benefit in some fashion from existing scholarly reputation systems, and to build a more cohesive community.

Eventually, I think it'll be feasible to layer reputation and credentials (for sites that care) on top of a system like OpenID. People will be able to choose what reputation/credentials to share with which site. Information that you want to follow you (e.g., "I have a BA in Math from UCLA" or "I have excellent karma on Slashdot") will follow you across sites.

But yeah, it's a very difficult problem. Figuring it out is a big, potentially very lucrative issue.

Re:Trust is the currency

[ralphdaugherty]

I have some nasty comments about this, but first let me switch to AC.

Re:Trust is the currency

[zCyl]

Honestly, Slashdot is one of the better examples of this (Slashdot's moderation system does alter the flow of the discussion but it does get a downright reasonable signal-to-noise ratio vs other online communities).

That's because Slashdot's system puts only minimal emphasis on individuals, and very high emphasis on selected adjectives of value. Comments do not simply get moderated up or down, but have to be moderated with a chosen adjective, such as "insightful", "informative", "funny", etc. This really helps keep people's heads on straight, especially with the presence of meta-moderation, because people then have to agree on what these words mean. The end result is that posts are usually moderated in close proximity to these labels.

The karma attribute is used only as an accessory to this content-based moderation, to provide some inertia to the community's character. It's not really a reputation centered system.

Instant Mashed Repuation!

[rueger]

The problem is that everyone wants to know right now who is trustworthy and who is not.

Building a reputation takes time, often a lot of time. Amazon's reputation is built on several years of good service, good web design, and overwhelmingly positive customer experiences.

Facebook and Digg don't have that track record, and until they do will not enjoy the same level of trust.

Any system designed to give a stamp of approval needs only one mistake to become untrustworthy. Unless it can be nearly 100% foolproof it won't be effective. And given the number of supposedly trustworthy businesses who are anything but, I'd say that rating reputation is not likely to happen soon.

And what do you buy with that currency?

[khasim]

It seems that everyone trying to "solve" this "problem" doesn't know what they're trying to achieve.

So what if you can make a perfect pseudonym identification system? What does that achieve for you? What do you accomplish beyond that?

Does it really matter to anyone else if your Slashdot 'nym can be verified to match your 'nym's on a dozen other boards? Who really cares if you have excellent karma on Slashdot?

Re:And what do you buy with that currency?

[gbjbaanb]

it matters because if you have good rep on slashdot, chances are you're not a complete mumpty. On the other hand, if you have a dreadful karma on slashdot, you'll be saying the same old pants on other sites too.

It really ensures that if you post good stuff somewhere you can be trusted to post good stuff on other sites too. What that means to a particular site depends on that site, for something like ebay that can matter quite a lot, at least it would allow good posters to be recognised as such, and then I think sites would start to implement policies on posting that restrict non-recognised 'nyms until they gain a good reputation.

Re:And what do you buy with that currency?

[Original Replica]

In this anonymous online world, this would be an attempt to establish character. So in the future, acting like an asshat for fun in formus would relfect on you elsewhere. Just like if you act like an asshat at the company picnic, it effects you back in the office and possibly gets back to your friends at home. And yes, I think if someone is a carebear in WoW then they are a more trustworthy eBay seller, and someone with intelligent /. posts is more likely to contribute intelligently to Wikipedia.

Re:And what do you buy with that currency?

[Simon80]

Regardless of what kind of eBay seller you'd be, this system would let people shun you for being an asshat somewhere if you used an important identity to be an asshat with. This would relegate most asshattery to anonymous identities, which would mean that sites that want to eliminate asshattery would simply require that all participation come from an identity with a decent reputation. I'm not sure if this is a good thing or not.

Re:And what do you buy with that currency?

[Sigma 7]

In this anonymous online world, this would be an attempt to establish character. So in the future, acting like an asshat for fun in formus would relfect on you elsewhere. I'll play devil's advocate here...

Let's say you comment on the theory concerning the use of demolition explosives on one of the world trade centers - pointing out that the collapse of the WTC doesn't look like other building demolitions, or that the "symettric demolition" claim is incorrect.

However, the conspiracy theorists on the site are extremely fanatic about their theory (as opposed to a more moderate site that tries to investigate properly.) As a result, you receive a large quantity of negative feedback that attaches itself to your online reputation.

Other things that can affect you would be playing RTCW:ET, where you get kicked from a server for n00bism as you didn't dodge the three panzers that get fired into your local area (because another player thought you should have.)

And my personal favourite - just claim you support Bush. Your reputation would instantly tank.

Re:And what do you buy with that currency?

[Eivind]

Yes it matters. A lot.

Online, a lot of clues that are present in the real world are absent. We instinctively assign some level of trust to people we meet, for different purposes, based on a lot of variables, some of them we're aware of, others are subconscious.

You let your neighbour have your house-key to water the flower. But you wouldn't do that with *ANY* kind of neighbour.

You let someone babysite your kids. You let a friend borrow $50 'cos his credit-card is broken. You wouldn't to everyone, it's a matter of trust.

You trust someones judgement on some issue -- because you know that they are experts in the field and have a track-record of good judgement.

Being able to build trust in a pseudonym, and being able to prove that you are that pseudonym is very useful. It allows people to trust you who wouldn't otherwise.

To avoid abuse, it is nessecary that *you* have complete control over what aspects of your trust you share with which people and which companies.

So, what do you want to achieve ? World Domination offcourse ! *grin* No seriously, a million little small things, each of which may be unimportant, but the sum could be huge. Some examples used *today* include:

• If you've got excellent reputation, Ebay-buyers generally won't mind paying first, getting the item(s) afterwards. This would be quite risky -- except you know that the seller has sold 471 things before on similar terms, and -zero- of his customers complained.
• Hospitality-club use a trust-system to allow you to let complete strangers sleep over at your house, or vice versa, with a much reduced risk of any unwanted problems. Sure, *you* may not know this person, but it helps if 50 other people do -- especially if 5 of those are your friends.
• Slashdot use a trust-metric to let people with a track-record of sane comments be sligthly more visible.

In a universally networked world (which we're rapidly approaching anyway) with strong trust-systems, you could stop a complete stranger on the street and ask to borrow his car -- and he'd actually consider it. He wouldn't know *you* but, he'd be able to know a lot *about* you -- if you choose to share it with him.

What about well-prepared people?

[CPE1704TKS]

I haven't used my name for posting on the Internet since 1997 when I realized that dejanews.com would keep my newsgroup postings forever (even that was with a somewhat random e-mail address). I literally don't have any internet presence with my real name unless it's inadvertent (ie. a news release from my employer) but the good thing is that my name is so common I would be hard to find anyway.

So in it's place, I created a whole shitload of false identities that I post under, one of them about 10 years old now. Mainly on forums and newsgroups for work purposes, etc. If you searched for this particular identity, you would probably fine hundreds of posts (including many on slashdot) some of them truthful, some of them fake, with various opinions of topics.

Every few years I will discard an identity or create a new one, for various reasons. I even have a fake lj blog that I've created just for the purpose of having that sense of "credibility", just in case I need it. I usually update that every few weeks, with something that I read on someone else's blog, but changing the words around just enough so that I can't be googled and exposed as a fake. I make sure each identity has a different way of typing, different levels of typos or capitalization, etc. I don't think you would be able to properly gauge the "credibility" of this person at all.

I doubt I'm unique and there are probably scores of people doing the same thing. As internet users get more and more sophisticated, how will internet credibility really be gauged unless you actually meet someone face-to-face? I was even contemplating getting a pay-as-you-go cellphone with no traceability (paid with cash at a store in a different city than where I live) just in case I needed to talk with someone offline. I'm doubtful you can really establish credibility to the point where it's better to just assume that everyone is lying and be on the guard all the time.

Hear, hear!

[mangu]

I think Wikipedia is a site that really needs to somehow integrate the reputation of it's contributors into the articles.

Indeed! Here's my own anecdote on that: I recently tried editing an article on a certain Posada Carriles, a man whom the Cuban government and Wikipedia call a "terrorist".

I was browsing the Cuban government site Granma where they had a list of what they called evidence against Posada. One item was an AK-47 rifle, another item was a box of 5.56mm ammo for that rifle. It doesn't take much of gun expertise to know that NATO ammo doesn't go into an AK-47, and I tried to put that in a paragraph criticizing the accusations against Posada. I don't know the guy, for all I know he could really be a terrorist, but you aren't going to convict anyone in a civilized court of law with that kind of "evidence".

I was thoroughly flamed by someone about that. It seems that Cuban government sympathizers are carefully patrolling any critical statements about the dictatorship. If Wikipedia had a reputation system, the commies would mod me down for presenting a balanced view in their rant against Posada, but I would recover my karma through my other contributions. OTOH, fanatics would find it too troublesome to fake an interest in subjects other than their favorite and their karma would suffer from that.

Online reputation? All reputation is hard to do

[Colin Smith]

It's why we have exams, professional organisations, CVs, brands, social networking etc etc etc.

We use reputation all the time and no-one has come up with a single reliable, coherent way of measuring it. You just try to get a decent builder.

Re:To clarify that ...

[dkf]

What would be considered "good stuff" on one site (or even by one moderator) would be considered ignorant drivel on another site (or by a different moderator).

You achieve all the same benefits without the problems just by having your own reputation/moderation system.

I suspect that there will be a lot of correlation between sites, as people who act like asses in one place are more likely to do so elsewhere. On the other hand, I also think that what will actually emerge is that the sites that correlate cluster in groups: if you have a good rep on site A, you're more likely to have a good rep on site B and a bad rep on site C, and you probably won't frequent D at all. Given all that, someone with a good search engine and a lot of cleverness will be able to start mapping out what these virtual communities actually look like and other sociological/anthropological stuff like that.

But will sharing reputation systems help sites? I think so, eventually, but not for many years yet. Until the reputation clusters have been found, sharing is as likely to introduce needless pollution of reputation systems as it is to enable reputations to be built up quickly. (Could there be a single reputation cluster? Maybe, but I suspect not; people are too inclined to divide the world into "us" and "them" for it to work out.)

One thing that might come out of reputation research is that it might become possible to use the reputation clusters to predict, from someone's interests and interactions, which sorts of sites they'd like to visit. OK, that does sound backwards, but it should guide people to where they won't want to make a total fool of themselves on a regular basis (yes, even the griefing pranksters; after all, when amongst the fools the foolish are sages and the wise foolish.) It may also eventually be possible to join the reputation clusters up, but using negative links (so reputations on sites for followers of Xenu who believe in ID and the supremacy of feng shui of placement of feeding bowls for their chihuahua will negatively reinforce reputations here) but I doubt that will help any time soon. There's a revolution waiting to happen here, but since it really involves lots of people, it'll take time to brew.

On the other hand, it is sensible to start working out what technological steps are required to enable specific bipartite reputation sharing, as well as looking at how to build sane single-site reputation systems. For example, slashdot's is pretty good in that it isn't easy to totally game the system while being mostly self-regulating, but can it be bettered without input of data from outside sites? If it can't be greatly improved, how difficult will it be to export the system to other sites? (It's late: I'm sure you can think of other aspects, but I can't right now.)

and...so what?

[Wabbit Wabbit]

I've got mod points, but I think I'd rather participate.

it matters because if you have good rep on slashdot, chances are you're not a complete mumpty. On the other hand, if you have a dreadful karma on slashdot, you'll be saying the same old pants on other sites too.

And so what? Is all of this really so important? I find it fascinating that so many people on so many sites care more about their "reputations" than what they post.

It really ensures that if you post good stuff somewhere you can be trusted to post good stuff on other sites too.

Does it? Sometimes I don't WANT my "good" reputation to follow me. I like acting like a goon on something awful and like a lolcat-loving ding-dong on fark and like a...well...never-you-mind-like-what on consumptionjunction and 4chan.

When (and where) I want to be serious, I am. Others see it quickly enough too. It doesn't take long at each site I join for people to realize that I'm a "good poster". Honestly, it isn't complicated. Stay on topic, write well, be helpful, and the rest follows. Such has been my pattern over the years at sitepoint, namepros, webhostingtalk, and even here.

\Perhaps it's because I'm old
\\And still use slashies
\\\(reversed because slashdot doesn't like 'em forward for some reason)

Exactly

[Moraelin]

I was going to post much the same thing, so it's refreshing to see someone else thinking that way.

The thing about Slashdot's karma is that it creates groupthink. As you've said, too many people care about it instead of just posting what they think. So they post what they perceive to be the popular opinion, even if that's not what they really think, or even if it's contrary to what they really think.

Frankly, I think groupthink is a bigger problem than even the goatse links. Groupthink is where rational information exchange dies. If you look at the worst bible-thumping communities, or at rabid theocracies, or at the worst excesses of history, and some of its biggest mistakes too, almost all were based on groupthink. Take a million people who individually think "jeez, X is stupid and evil" and put them in a big group where they think that everyone else is fundamentally and rabidly pro-X... and watch them all start chest-thumping for the very thing they secretly despise. Just to get brownie points with the rest of the gang.

When a whole village went and cheered about one of them being burned at the stake as a witch (for bonus points when everyone knew it's a bogus charge and the real reason is something like: widow without sons inherits some land, some rich guy wants her land), that was groupthink. "OMG, I can't let the other ones even think I'm not a rabid fundie. Why, my popularity would go down."

At the risk of tempting Goodwin's law (although it's not a comparison): when a few million Germans cheered about invading the USSR, that was groupthink too. "OMG, I can't let the others think I'm not patriotic."

And in our own times, when you look at such things as bible-thumping communities, or at the broken high-school culture where being smart is uncool and being an airhead is the apex of fashion... guess what? That's groupthink too. Once the ball got rolling, even kids who do understand that their future job does depend on it... still go and insult the nerd, because that's what brings them karma points with the rest of the group.

So, to cut a long story short, I actually _don't_ want that kind of global karma. I actually _want_ people to come forth and say what they think, and not what they think would be popular in that community. I want people to actually come forth and say stuff like "this war is bogus" or "the PATRIOT act is unconstitutional" and not devolve into sheep thinking "OMG, I can't have it follow me for the rest of my life that I'm not patriotic or that maybe I have something to hide". Even if it's something as unimportant as a games forum, I actually want people to come forth and tell me the bad parts about it, so I can make an informed decision. I don't want more of them to think "OMG, if I say anything bad, I'll come out as a troll." Etc.