Slashdot Mirror
Xandros CEO Doesn�t Agree Linux is Patent Violator
whitehartstag writes with a link to a Network World article about statements from Xandros in the wake of their Microsoft deal. Xandros CEO Andreas Typaldos made a point of stating that they don't believe their product violates any of Microsoft's patents. Nor, he said, did the software giant share with them exactly which patents they believe Linux violates. Just the same, he's disappointed with the reaction they've received from the open source community. "Feedback from the Linux community has been on the order of 'you shouldn't really be talking to the devil.' Linux and open-source advocates believe it is a big issue and say the Xandros deal, and another signed by Novell with Microsoft last year, erodes open source licensing provisions especially around intellectual property issues. Indeed, the Free Software Foundation is rewriting its GNU General Public License (GPL) 3.0 to prohibit such patent deals in the future."
Future submitters, just keep this text on hand the next time some idiot signs a deal with Microshaft:
It's almost beyond belief that these guys keep giving the community a great big "FUCK YOU", and yet are always surprised when we don't welcome them as liberators, with flowers and open wallets.
you had me at #!
Until Microsoft actually reveals the patents that are being "violated" it really can't be judged what patents (if any) do and don't violate Microsoft patents. Until this happens, all we are being fed is hearsay and speculation.
Well, back to rejecting software patent applications.
FTFA: The customer in the market place is dictating what we are doing, not my engineers
You are using a tremendous amount of software your engineers didn't write. I'd say that inevitably, the authors of that software will dictate what you are doing. You and the customers are just enjoying the ride with their permission. Try to remember that the next time you throw dirt in their eyes--assuming you get that chance.
Especially when significant money is involved?
Are you competent to even run this company?
"It's the height of ridiculousness to say for those 9 lines you get hundreds of millions."
It looks like this company is actually helping the community. They're eliminating the fear that if their product is used, they, the customer, won't have to worry about the big bad MS coming after them. After all, wasn't this the exact same issue that kept folks from adopting Linux when the whole SCO thing was just getting started because they were afraid, and rightfully so, that SCO would come after them?
This deal doesn't look like a cut and dried "bend over and take it" type of thing; to me anyway.
I prefer Flambe as apposed flamebait.
IMHO, Microsoft's patent claims lack merit, for several reasons: prior art; obviousness; and limits on patenting math. Let's turn up the volume on our doubt of Microsoft's claims. Please challenge Microsoft to sue you (yes, you AND your company) by signing this list of 1,395 people who doubt Microsoft's patent claims:
l e=SMFM_list_page_11
http://digitaltippingpoint.com/wiki/index.php?tit
From TFA:
"We did not discuss patents [with Microsoft] and we don't think Linux violates any patents and we were not asked about it," Typaldos said. "It is a non-issue for us."
...then...
"Linux says it does not infringe on patents, Microsoft say otherwise. But customers say let me buy some insurance because if there are any flying sparks I don't want to be caught in the middle of that."
Typaldos says that was the genesis of Monday's deal with Microsoft that covered interoperability and IP licensing and included "covenants" to protect customers using Xandros software from any potential patent-infringement claims from Microsoft.
If Microsoft is running around shrieking about patents, and if your customers are demanding you do something because they are feeling vulnerable about patents, and then you strike a deal on that very issue - but don't talk about patents, then you don't know what the hell you're doing.
This chicanery hasn't yet hit a distro that I use, but it's a trend that really should stop.
Running Windows^H^H^H^H^H^H^H OSX and Linux in the home. (I don't have time for Solitaire any more.)
So, in effect, Xandros is making a deal that puts their 'community' above the community at large, whereas I would argue that the intent of the GPL in general, and the open-source developers that use it, is to create something that the wider community (all developers, all users, including Xandros and their customers) will ultimately benefit from.
I think that as long as companies like Novell and Xandros keep thinking of the community of only being made up of their paying customers, they are missing the point of free software and ultimately will be missing out on the crucial developments that they require to maintain profitability.
>No. Ever since SCO first started talking, Linux has never stopped gaining market share.
That is a trend I'm sure the market will correct now that Microsoft has begun to assert its' right to protect its' investment in its' intellectual property.
It will be interesting to compare Windows Server market share versus Linux market share a year from now.
...the signal they are sending to customers and (worse yet) potential customers is what matters...
...and that signal is: "Yes we do belive Linux is violating Microsoft's patents."
Do not sign those deals, Microsoft will kill you wheather you sign or not and you are giving them more ammo to kill you with.
It sure will, given that at least up until this whole thing began (I don't have stats for after it) Linux was the only operating system gaining market share, though Windows was mostly holding. This is because Linux takes more seats away from Legacy UNIX than it does from Windows.
Frankly I think that the whole patent flap will have little to no effect on Linux adoption.
"You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
Anything that suggests Microsoft is doing something good is immediately shot down.
I fail to see how "pay us and we won't crush you" qualifies as 'doing something good.'
By that metric, the Mafia must be the best guys ever! All they want is your money, and they'll be ever so nice to you.
"Ladies and gentlemen, my killbot features Lotus Notes and a machine gun. It is the finest available."
Is it me, or do these companies not see that for the majority of distros these are simply an complex form of suicide?
It looks as though they get whispered blandishments from MS that this will make them special and unique, and improve their attractiveness to their customers, but all I can see is that a lot of individuals and SMEs will automatically exclude them from consideration as a distro after the deal is inked.
An alternative interpretation is that the people who sign the deals stand to make $$$ from the deals, and they see that as better than being YALD (Yet Another Linux Distro).
I'm likely missing something, of course...
Call me old fashioned, but I like a dump to be as memorable as it is devastating - Bender
The target that you should be aiming for regarding these patent agreements is not Xandros, or Novell, or even Microsoft. It should be the borked Software Patent laws that you've got in the US. Fix those, and you'll have no need of any patent agreemetns, or any patent clauses in the GPLv3.
/Novell, then you might actually achieve something.
So, where are the details of the letters you're all sending to your Senators / Congress-people? (You ARE sending them aren't you???) Where is the campaign to change the law? If you lot spent half the time trying to amend legislation that you do bitching about Xandros
(I can't do anything, as where I'm from we don't have software patents. Software clauses in the GPLv3, or patent agreements between Xandros / Novell and Microsoft mean nothing to me, as they are irrelevant. However, seeing various parts of the Linux community slag into each other because of the uncertainty caused by a borked patent system pisses me off royally - FIX YOUR PATENT SYSTEM!!!)
Sesostris III
You never know what is enough unless you know what is more than enough. - Blake
When I go to linuxworld at SF in August, I'm going to have so much fun taunting the people running the Novell and Xandros booths.
"...today consumers have been conditioned to think of beer when they see a bullfrog..."
Well, I've not been following this whole thing very closely, but I do recall seeing the frequent complaint that Microsoft refuses to identify which patents are being infringed upon. Given that Microsoft probably holds thousands upon thousands of patents, I expect that it's not reasonable to expect the Linux community to proactively slog through them all and make sure all violations are corrected.
If I understand correctly, at least part of the burden is on Microsoft to defend their patents. I'm sure if they provided a list of the violations, the community would take care of the violations. It just seems to me that not releasing the list means either (1) there's not really any substantial violations, or (2) Microsoft just wants the spectre of patent infringement hanging over Linux as long as possible. Or maybe a little of both.
Just my uninformed two cents, though...take it with a block of salt.
[b.belong('us') for b in bases if b.owner() == 'you']
And you have the list of these patents that are contained in GNU/Linux so that we can remove said code.
Or baring that do you have the Microsoft source codes so that we can look them over and find the infrigments ourselves.
I thought not.
Undetectable Steganography? Yep, there's an app fo
Just the opposite.
Msft wants the public to believe that *only* novell and xandros can be used without fear. Where does that leave redhat, which has about 75% of the enterprise market? Or Debian, or Ubuntu, or Mandrake, or Slackware?
The very fact that these deals are made makes Linux look dirtry - which is of course the idea. These companies take msft fud money to help msft imply that linux is a legal mine-field.
And exactly what is the Xandros product? Just an FYI, Xandros does not own linux, they distriute linux which is licensed to them by the owners of the copyrights under the GPL. The Novell and Xandros deals are BS because they are linux distributors and at best a small player in the development of linux.
From the base of the kernel source code I ran an egrep -ir "Xandros" * | egrep "Copyright" and came up with nothing, for Novell there was only one. If you try something like "Red Hat" or "IBM" or "Hewlett" you come up with a list of multiple copyrights.
So is Microsoft signing a deal with Xandros to not go after their customers for the services that Xandros provides? Its definitely not for any Xandros intellectual property.
It is the same issue, both are based on posturing rather than facts, linux adoption did not stop, and there was no reason to fear The SCO Group unless you were a previous customer of the original SCO. The SCO Group professed loudly the same threats in the press but in the end they didn't go after a single linux user, they went after their own customers who did business with them in the past.
So if The SCO Group is any hint of what will happen its likely the people who are signing deals with Microsoft are the ones who will get screwed.
We are talking about a company that outright lied the USA-DOJ, and the EU, A company which has been caught red-handed in numerous scams, and outright theft. A company with a very well documented history of numerous mis-information campaigns.
7 229
t ml
- attorney-admits-to-falsifying-emails-in-racketeeri ng-case-266395.php
Msft is funding the scox-scam, stold stacker technology, hires bloggers to post msft propaganda, hires shill journalists like Enderle, files dozens - if not hundreds - of bogus patents, and creates fake think-tanks. Msft is currently running a enormous fud campain against ODF - and ruined the career of Peter Quinn along the way. Msft has been caught secretly sponsoring fake TCO studies, and fake benchmarking studies.
Not to mention tax scams and racketeering.
Msft astroturfing:
http://lxer.com/module/forums/t/24514/
Fake TCO:
http://os.newsforge.com/print.pl?sid=05/06/23/202
Microsoft Tax Scam
http://multinationalmonitor.org/hyper/mm1297.08.h
Bestbuy rackteering
http://consumerist.com/consumer/lawsuits/best-buy
- how many patents does MS have? or how/where to find out? can they be electronically leached somehow?
- how easy are they to turn from legalease technojumbo to english?
- what kind of effort it might take to review each one?
Maybe an MS patent wiki is in order.
Start with (hopefully) an automated dump of all patents into a wiki of some sort where people can read them, and link to prior art, and/or state whether this might be in use by OSS somewhere... that way we can work to invalidate on one side and assess and remove possible risks on the other.
If this becomes a community effort then perhaps it can be dealt with more manageably ... anyone know how to get it started?
If you think imaginary property and real property are the same, when does your house become public domain?
"They're eliminating the fear that if their product is used, they, the customer, won't have to worry about the big bad MS coming after them."
No, they're trying to create fear that Linux contains their IP. They want to eliminate all free as in beer versions of Linux. This is just step two of their plan. The SCO litigation was step one.
The race isn't always to the swift... but that's the way to bet!
And in response to the ceo's statements the linux community responded with "Who the fuck is Xandros? I mean does anyone actually use this distro".
First they came...
First they came and they took Novell
And I said nothing because I did not use SuSE
Then one day they came and they took the people of the Xandros faith
And I said nothing because I had no faith left
One day they came and they took LG Electronics
And I said nothing because I had no Xbox
One day they burned Open Office.org
And I said nothing because I was born to use Emacs
Then one day they came and they took me
And I could say nothing because I was as guilty as they were
For not speaking out and saying that all men have a right to freedom
On any land
I was as guilty of genocide
As you
All of you
For you know when a man is free
And when to set him free from his slavery
So I charge you all with genocide
The same as I
One of the 18 million dead Jews
18 million dead people
-- from Charles Mingus, after Martin Niemöller
People should not fear their government. Governments should fear their people.
Or something like that?
From the article: "Indeed, the Free Software Foundation is rewriting its GNU General Public License (GPL) 3.0 to prohibit such patent deals in the future." GLP 3.0 does no such thing. What it does is extend any such patent protection deals to all users of the GPL 3.0 software, not just the group that made the deal.
Hello, it only helps to prove that Bill is starting to worry a little more about Linux Now that it is becoming competitive. Also, they are using a well known strategy by attempting to coerce and subdue and enemy they can't beat outright. Rome wasn't deposed by any mighty army but instead consumed from within by people who didn't care about Rome at all. All Microsoft has to do is screw Linux up enough to make the average desktop user sensitive to FUD and they will have snuffed the Linux revolution from within.
It was nice knowing you. Too bad that a single bad management decision killed you. Bye bye now.
Meh.
Yeah I agree. These guys don't see the damage that they are doing by signing such a deal. They are giving Microsoft legitimacy to bully people in the community. The companies of Xandros, Novell and LG will never be free of Microsoft who provides them with no benefit when it comes to the Linux Community if they keep doing this. I guess they don't realize that what the community is fighting for is ultimately better for them then what Microsoft is offering.
The reality is that software patents are bad for the Software industry as a whole. It will be the undoing of the industry creating a situation that even Microsoft won't be able to afford to operate in. What benefit will they have when they have to pay company X for one patent and then company Y for another patent and company Z for another patent and company Q for another patent. Its a situation that will bring even Microsoft down. I wouldn't be surprised if Windows already violates thousands of patents today while they are professing their fictitious patents against Linux. The way the US Patent office has been filing such patents has probably already created such a situation. Pretty soon the only places where people will be able to innovate is places like Canada where Software patents are not recognized by the Legal System.
That's what insurance is.
The difference between insurance and protection money is that the insurance company isn't threatening to burn down your store.
My God, it's Full of Source!
OUTSIDE_IP=$(dig +short my.ip @outsideip.net)
They're pretty popular for people who run computer labs full of Macs (schools, for example). The netboot and ARD stuff makes it much easier to install new machines, distribute cloned images to their drives remotely (or remove the hard drives entirely and netboot them all), set up network home directories and domain-wide login accounts, etc.
That said, you're right that Apple has never really pushed the enterprise server market.
Check out my sci-fi/humor trilogy at PatriotsBooks.
It's not quite that simple. What Microsoft is doing is establishing a base of transactions for the underlying concepts used in FOSS projects, so they can take the projects from the community.
The free software community works on a non-transactional basis. There's an expectation of delayed gratification from many contributors. For example, I write tools for my field, but I'm a poor coder. I taught myself programming out of desperation, because there were so few suitable programs available. Because I release those tools under the GPL, I have an expectation that they will be improved by coders with greater skills (but less knowledge of my niche field), and the improvements will be available to me. That's the strength of the GPL, if it weren't for the copyleft provision, unscrupulous developers could simply take my code and commercialise it, and I'd see no benefit from my work.
This works with software like no other product because with software, there's no cost of duplication, and the cost of developing the tool for myself is a sunk cost. Releasing it to the community is no additional burden for me, and there's a chance I might benefit if I do release it.
Microsoft wants to create that additional burden. They're scared of a mass of developers all contributing, but not participating in a transaction for each contribution. It's why they're paying money to competitors with these agreements. They want to create a web of transactions to demonstrate there is commercial value in the ideas people like myself are contributing to the community.
They'll succeed this time too, because the business in general - not just Microsoft - doesn't like non-transactional effort. There's no opportunity to pry themselves a piece of it. That's why Microsoft is being received with open arms by so many of the Linux business community - they've found a way to introduce transactions where business can leverage value from what used to be a process that was closed to them.
In the end, it won't be Microsoft that sues someone who contributes an idea to the community, and runs foul of some undisclosed patent. It'll be a Linux business, someone like Xandros or Novell, and it'll only take a few lawsuits to take away that incentive for me (or anyone like me) to have to think twice before releasing that useful tool.
In many ways, it's another version of the embrace, extend, extinguish model, but it's starting to become clear just how long Microsoft has been planning this, and how determined they are to are to commercialise software freedom. I think it'll work for them too. They'll have a lot more support from business and government this time.
"I've got more toys than Teruhisa Kitahara."
I must admit I kind of think you're high. But then maybe it's just me.
Please stop stalking me, bro.