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Spirited Exchange Over Net Neutrality

LukeCage sends us to The Register for a rabble-rousing account of a US Commerce Department official's talk at Supernova 2007. The article is headlined Bush official goes nuclear in New Neut row, and points out that the speaker, John Kneuer, is a former telecom lobbyist. To figure out what really went on in that session — whether it was a shouting match as El Reg reports — be sure to read Suw Charman's notes from the floor and Kevin Werbach's note (Werbach is the conference organizer).

19 of 176 comments (clear)

  1. The power of debate by MosesJones · · Score: 5, Insightful

    One of the worst things about the last 7 years of US government has been the destruction of rational debate. Everything is now about opinion rather than about facts and its become perfectly okay to have a firm opinion, no matter how insane it is (Cheney and his "I'm not in the executive" for starters).

    Its hard to see this changing in the next few years because it is actively supported by the media who much prefer a strong opinion to some dull and boring facts.

    At least he didn't claim everyone against him was supporting terrorists......

    --
    An Eye for an Eye will make the whole world blind - Gandhi
    1. Re:The power of debate by WilliamSChips · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Truthiness, not facts!

      --
      Please, for the good of Humanity, vote Obama.
    2. Re:The power of debate by stuntpope · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Related to this is the annoying habit of the most zealous ideologues who post their opinions on web forums to end their unsupported, often ludicrous, assertions with

      FACT!

      as if that settles it. Oh, it has the "Fact Seal of Approval", I guess he's right.

    3. Re:The power of debate by tjstork · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Last 7 years? I'd say more like the last 30. What's been happening is a gradual escalation in political demagoguery since Reagan won in 1980s. Back then, the left went absolutely nuts and started throwing out all sorts of ridiculous charges. The right reciprocated when Clinton got elected by trying to impeach him essentially because he was a Democrat. The left, obviously ticked off, racheted up their assaults on the right to a high new level. These assaults are bleeding into lawmaking.

      You saw Clinton go after the right by using the IRS to attack right wing think tanks. Then, Bush matched that by trying to get loser pays tort reform, a proposition which would bankrupt the plaintiff lawyers that drive the Democrats. And you see Republicans also proposing to allow members to opt out of union dues for political purposes, another union defunder and Democrat breaker. Now Democrats are trying to retaliate by going after right wing media - by basically banning free speech in radio.

      The bottom line is, that anyone that thinks their guys, Democrat or Republican, is a fool, and anyone that goes onto a board and parrots the latest propaganda from the likes of MoveOn or National Review are even bigger fools, because they let themselves get used as puppets.

      Distortions, flat out lies, go around on both sides, as if, it is settled that the truth can be sacrificed for the greater good of political victory. If you really want to take our country back, we need to realize that the people that are trying to whip up support for their own causes. People like Kos and Rush are in it to cash in, and gain personal power. They are damaged, all of these "talking heads", and they need more a good bullet to the head than to be taken as anything more as the demagoguing power mongering traitors to the American ideal that they are.

      --
      This is my sig.
    4. Re:The power of debate by jc42 · · Score: 5, Insightful

      At least he didn't claim everyone against him was supporting terrorists......

      Maybe he didn't, but those of us paying attention ahve already seen this argument used. The "reasoning" is obvious: Allowing everyone (who pays for service) equal access to the Net clearly does allow terrorists the same access. It also allows politicians, pedophiles, librarians, garbage collectors, and left-handed people the same access.

      But one of the lessons of history is that if ISPs and other comm companies are allowed to block "terrorists" (or pedophiles or politicians), they will first use it to block their own economic competitors by slowing down their packets to uselessness. The real issue here isn't whether people we don't like can be blocked.

      The issue is whether single corporations set up as legal monopolies (or duopolies in some neighborhoods) can be allowed to control who can communicate and who can't. Their main concern will be with maintaining their control, not implementing the public policies used to justify giving them control.

      Communication is an important right. There's reason that it was the very first thing written into the US Bill of Rights. Without the right to communicate, our other rights don't mean very much. And the recent tendency in the US for those in power to label just about anyone as a "terrorist" without any evidence at all should give us all pause.

      --
      Those who do study history are doomed to stand helplessly by while everyone else repeats it.
    5. Re:The power of debate by cayenne8 · · Score: 4, Insightful
      "A friend of mine told me about this Cheney episode the other day and my first thought was that perhaps Ol' Dick is in need of some help from the nice men and women in the white coats? And he'll get his own little room, bright and airy, with lovely thick, soft wallpaper too. If he isn't part of the executive he's a trespasser in the halls of government and, as such, should be tried for his trespass."

      I'm not saying "I" agree with Dick, but, some legal analysts say he 'might' indeed have a bit of a leg to stand on here. The office of the Vice President is I think fairly unique in that it might have to be considered a hybrid office, due to the fact that the VP is head of the Senate. That would make his office at least half legislative, and there are some rules about searching those (see the hubub about the searches of congressman Jefferson's office).

      From what I can tell, the VP's office is unique in this, that it is partially executive, and partially legislative.....so, someone may have to rule on this.

      Apparently this issue isn't as cut and dried as it appears at first. I'd have assumed it was executive right off to bat too.

      --
      Light travels faster than sound. This is why some people appear bright until you hear them speak.........
    6. Re:The power of debate by Elemenope · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Uh, hmm. No way does he have a leg to stand on, and it has nothing to do with the 'hybrid nature of his office'. It very well may be true that the Vice-president can in some circumstances be treated as both a legislative and executive office...but that's not the issue. The issue is that Cheney is claiming that because he is in both, he doesn't have to follow the rules of either. And that is just patently stupid. If he is in both, he has to follow the rules of both.

      For the vast majority (i.e. up until four years ago) of the time this republic has existed, the Vice-president, despite his cursory senatorial duties, has always been considered a member of the Executive. More importantly, all the rules, laws, and regs are written as if that were the case. So, there is a heavy precedental weight against even the theoretical contention that the VP should be considered legislative, even if he might for the sake of argument considered to be so.

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      All the techniques ever used to make men moral have been themselves thoroughly immoral... (Nietzsche)
    7. Re:The power of debate by OECD · · Score: 2, Insightful

      From what I can tell, the VP's office is unique in this, that it is partially executive, and partially legislative.....

      ...and partially judicial. The Senate tries impeachment cases. Yup, he'd preside over his own trial. Seriously. He's exempted if the President is impeached, but apparently it never occured to anybody that the VP could do anything to warrant impeachment.

      --
      One man's -1 Flamebait is another man's +5 Funny.
  2. 700mhz by Aranykai · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Identifying delegates as "application providers", he said it was their responsibility to compete with broadband incumbents by offering their own service, founded initially on portions of the 700Mhz spectrum. This spectrum will be sold under auction once terrestrial TV providers complete their move to digital in February 2009. What the hell does that have to do with the ramifications of ending net neutrality? "Oh, we're screwing the consumer over be letting these monopolistic behaviors continue. But don't worry, heres some old shit that the cable industry doesn't use. Have fun!"
    --
    If sharing a song makes you a pirate, what do I have to share to be a ninja?
  3. Re:Net neutrality is not a concern -- regulation i by profplump · · Score: 3, Insightful

    While I understand most of your concerns, somehow I don't think consolidating power to the federal government will improve any of the things you'd like to see fixed. What makes you think it would be easier to change the problems at a federal level, rather than at a state level? Even if you only fix it in one state, that's plenty of market for people interested in setting up wireless ISPs or pulling new cable.

    It's also worth noting that, while many ISPs are chartered as telcos for various reasons (like the ability to install their own DSLAMs) and therefore subject to the regulation of state utility boards, simply becoming a wireless ISP does not require such regulation in places -- it's a matter between you, the FCC, and whatever body regulates radio towers in your area (usually the city).

  4. Not surprising by TheWoozle · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Since the FTC doesn't think there's a problem.

    I don't get it... why do we have to wait for the telecomm industry to screw us before we can do something? What happened to "an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure?"

    Politicians (and the telecomm lobbyists who pay their bills) like to bloviate about the "free market"; can someone please point out what they're talking about? I've been looking for competition between broadband providers for a decade now, and the only thing I've come across is phone companies complaining that cable operators are horning in.

    --
    Insisting on "correct" English is like saying that there is only one, definitive recipe for chili.
  5. Re:You're kidding, right? by QMO · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Why anyone bothers to read that piece-of-trash site is far beyond me...
    BOFH
    --
    Exam 4/C again. Maybe I'll do better this time.
  6. The talk is on line by isdnip · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Why take somebody else's word for it when you can watch the actual talk? Thanks to conference organizer Kevin Werbach:

    http://conversationhub.com/2007/06/27/video-john-k neuer-on-spectrum-policy-and-network-neutrality/

    Summary: Kneuer makes a total idiot of himself, but remains generally calm. He is reciting Cheney-Rove talking points, not actually discussing the issue in any meaningful way. He declares American broadband policy to be a success. He also sets up a straw man argument, that any kind of network neutrality rule would be regulating the "rates, terms and conditions" of Internet access. And he simply assumes that regulating "rates, terms and conditions" (a phrase he repeats over and over) is Bad. This is to be taken on faith, and when the crowd doesn't get it his way (because they're not members of the Orthodox Chicago School of Economics Church of Untrammeled Monopoly Power), he just repeats himself.

    He has to leave for the airport by the end of his talk. I wish the taxi had followed his model of deregulation. "Me and my boy Tiny here gotta inspect yer luggage. We have to take care of it, you know, so nothing happens between here and the airport. Hmmm, nice computer you have. You wouldn't want that to fall and have an accident. Let's see, that'll be $100. for safe passage. And gee, your plane leaves in an hour and a half. You do want to make that plane, right? That'll be a $50 fee for rapid delivery. And no, don't get off the taxi, because Tiny and I are going to Deliver this stuff, whether it's to you or not. We gotta pay for this nice taxi, you know. It ain't cheap maintaining a 1994 Plymouth on these streets." Yep, that's what he wants, the transport operator to take a cut of the goods. To (his term) "encourage investment".

    1. Re:The talk is on line by It+doesn't+come+easy · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Heh, I like your example. For my own soapbox:

      The US broadband marketplace is very much closed.

      The US broadband definition itself is brain dead. Defining broadband as anything over 200k in one direction is like describing a puddle of water in your driveway as a major inland sea. At best, any given place in the US has two choices for broadband (usually large cities), at worst no choice. Where you have choice, the best price always requires purchasing a bundled deal. Bundling by definition is not optimal for the consumer (less competition between the same service from different vendors and the act of bundling itself raises the entry barrier for smaller players).

      No major infrastructure player (i.e. cable TV or phone provider) is required to allow competitors access to their hardware (as is the case for most electricity providers). Phone companies used public funds to build their infrastructure and yet still have NOT delivered on their promises of true broadband they used to secure that funding; now they want to charge their customers AGAIN for that increased bandwidth that we already paid for.

      All of these issues and more can be traced back to the corruption in our political system. John Kneuer says that new government regulation would interfere with the marketplace. That is a misdirection. We already have government regulation; the problem is current regulation favors the established players and eliminates competition. In other words, our current regulation ALREADY interferes with the marketplace. What we need is regulation that levels the playing field. And that is what the established players are fighting tooth and nail to stop.

      --
      The NSA: The only part of the US government that actually listens.
  7. Yeah, leave EVERYTHING to the marketplace... by dpbsmith · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Hurricanes? They provide opportunities for entrepreneurs to start up businesses rescuing flood victims for profit.

    Local roads? Contract 'em out to private businesses. Let the incentive of tolls release entrepreneurial creativity. Hey, you could put an RFID chip in every car and charge a nickel every time drive down Main Street and a penny when you cruise down Mockingbird Lane.

    Wars? Contract 'em out to Halliburton and Blackwater. (Oh, wait... we do, and look how well it works).

    Because big, bureaucratic, oligopolistic, greedy megacorporations are always better at everything than big, bureaucratic, patronage-ridden government agencies. And the profit motive always automatically aligns itself perfectly with American moral values. As Engline Charlie Wilson said, "I always thought that what was good for our country was good for General Motors and vice versa."

  8. Quoting Facts is Good by twitter · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Related to this is the annoying habit of the most zealous ideologues who post their opinions on web forums to end their unsupported, often ludicrous, assertions with FACT!

    It's a fact that the word zealous and zealot are insulting terms used by astroturfers and PR flacks to smear people opposed to them. It's namecalling and people dip to it when the facts are not in their favor.

    In this case, the Bush administration intentended to create a "marketplace" of two vendors. Each person is supposed to be able to chose between a cable company and a phone company for broadband and market pressures will make each behave. The most obvious flaw is that the policy has failed to provide even that level of competition. It's performance is poor, even by the FCC's convoluted "broadband" collection statistics, where everyone in a zip code has access to broadband if a single person there does. The second problem is that both parties all obviously collaborating with the powerful entertainment industry, where government "protection" has also led to a catastrophic lack of competition. Finally, the position is not even philosophically sound - if you believe in market forces you will open up the public servitude and spectrum to real competition. They can't have it both ways, you either regulate for the public good or you allow the public to mind it's own business. After a century of regulation, the former monopolies have a tremendous advantage that was built at everyone's expense, and should be as carefully watched as former Soviet companies until real competition emerges. What the impartial observer finds in Bush policy that it's designed to protect select private business, a private-public cooperation favoring few at the expense of all others. There are plenty of names for that kind of thing, Fascism, cronies, but the lables don't do it justice. The contraditions and poor performance are evident on their own, despite the Bush administration's best ability to eliminate facts from the picture. The contry that invented the internet should have the best public network in the world.

    --

    Friends don't help friends install M$ junk.

  9. Follow the money by athloi · · Score: 3, Insightful

    The chairman of the Federal Trade Commission on Wednesday recommended against additional regulation of high-speed Internet traffic.

    http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070628/ap_on_hi_te/in ternet_neutrality_ftc

    Looks to me like the Federal Trade Commission is enforcing some lack of regulation in the name of economic competition. This may have influenced the fear shown in the Bush guy's rant. They may be right, economically-speaking, but from an information perspective it's a terrible loss if net neutrality goes.

  10. Re:Net neutrality is not a concern -- regulation i by phlinn · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Where, precisely, did the GP suggest consolidating power to the federal government? If anything, he argued for removing power from government across the board. I believe 'State' in "...mess of State intervention..." was used in a more general sense, not to refer to the states in the US. It's any easy habit to slip into reading political materials, but it can be confusing for people in the US who aren't as interested in political theory.

    --
    "Pulling together is the aim of despotism and tyranny! Free men pull in all sorts of directions" -- Havelock Vetinari
  11. Mmmmm...reasonably uninformed cynicism. by fluxrad · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Last 7 years? I'd say more like the last 30.

    This statement is true, if all you've studied is the history of the U.S. for the past 30 years.

    Political theater is as old as time and it's not worse now than at any time in the past. You'd do well to take a look at some of the political "cartoons" from elections around the beginning of the 19th century. Also take a look at some of the political deals that were being done.

    With each new generation (in this case the post-gen-X crowd), people hit their late twenties (for some it's later) and become alarmed at what they see going on in capital hill. Why? Because they finally own houses, pay more taxes, have kids to worry about, etc. etc. They think their congress is the worst its ever been and SOMETHING MUST BE DONE! It was the same in the late 60's when the draft was on (as they say, all politics is local).

    A cliffs notes version of the political history of the U.S. won't show you that it's always been the same - but a thorough study of the stuff will. Personally, the only productive consequence of this new-found political outrage I see from folks is that maybe, and I mean maybe, they'll haul their asses off to the ballot box next election rather than talking about how bad things are inside the beltway, and then changing the channel to whatever staged "reality show" they're following for the time being.

    --
    "It is seldom that liberty of any kind is lost all at once." -David Hume