Mouse or Trackball?

Loconut1389 writes "I've been an avid mouse user for years, but lately all of the wrist movements have added up and combined with a desire for some added precision when not using my tablet in photoshop, I decided to purchase a large trackball. Logitech makes a few with a small, thumb controlled ball, but it looked like you'd get a tired thumb and have no added precision. After searching around, it seems that the only large one really available is a Kensington for about $90. Only CompUSA seemed to even carry the kensington in-store (and had none in stock). After ordering one online and using it for a few days now, I don't know how I ever lived with a mouse. The trackball has better precision, less wrist movement, and even gaming is pretty cool/easy with it (can spin it to whip around real quick, etc). All that said, it seems like trackballs have all but vanished except in medical fields (sonograms, etc) and perhaps graphic arts. I'm left insanely curious why trackballs haven't resurfaced now that optical technologies have fixed the main problems of old trackballs (and mice). Do you use a trackball? If so, are you in graphic design?"

Comments

Trackball

[BWJones]

My favorite input device has been a Kensington Turbo Mouse. It's a large trackball, a design I have been using for years going back to the original 1.0. They are great in reducing Repetitive Strain Injury (RSI) and allow more precision in control which is important for digital imagery work and image forensics.

For a traditional mouse, Apple's Mighty Mouse is pretty good, but it simply does not have the robust reliability that the Kensington track balls have. For most of the Kensington trackball's history, they used high quality bearings which were nice and robust, but dirt could get trapped in between stalling the cursor movement. Recently with the Expert Mouse however, they have gone to a glass/plastic? bearing with an optical tracking mechanism that is far superior to just about anything else on the market.

It is interesting that the trackball has quite a long history. I first saw them, other than Missile Command ;-) of course, on satellite imagery workstations back in 1990 and had to have one for my Mac systems. Unfortunately I had to endure a mouse with just about all of my SGI systems as the trackballs for those systems were either unavailable or just did not work as well as the mouse of hockey puck and digitizing board.

Re:Trackball

[Kagura]

Long, long ago I tried a trackball at my friend's house, and decided I absolutely must have one. That was a good couple of years, til I switched back to a mouse permanently, and you better believe I never looked back. After experiencing both sides of the fence, using a mouse is far more intuitive and precise for many activities on a PC.

Re:Trackball

[BWJones]

and you better believe I never looked back.

Or what?

After experiencing both sides of the fence, using a mouse is far more intuitive and precise for many activities on a PC.

That may be true for you, but from my experience in navigating image data comprising many gigabytes to terrabytes, having a trackball with a zoom ring on it like the Kensington Expert Mouse is the fastest means of navigating that I have found though I actually use a combination of trackball and Wacom drawing tablet for any work that requires "drawing".

Re:Trackball

[P3NIS_CLEAVER]

Many of the problems with mice went away when optical mice became prevalent. No more wrestling with goopy rollers.

Re:Trackball

[Silver Sloth]

Probably not, but thoughtful husbands buy their wives trackballs as well as flowers

Re:Trackball

[R2.0]

"thoughtful husbands buy their wives trackballs as well as flowers"

My wife own all of my balls already, you insensitive clod!

Re:Trackball

[toad3k]

I've been using logitech trackman marble since I was a pretard (10 years). My first came when my parents bought one of these on a whim for our first computer. I reacted hostile initially because all my experience with trackballs up to that point were crappy wheel based ones.

There are good points and bad points.

Good:
    It has always been as accurate as the best mouse, even before mice went optical.
    The cord never ever gets in the way of your movement, because it doesn't move.
    Doesn't require desk space. My screen is flush with my desk, my keyboard sitting snugly on an open desk drawer.

Bad:
    You can't hope to achieve smooth 360+ degree rotation on an fps. You have to move your thumb at some point.

But the main advantage, and the reason why I will never go back to using a normal mouse is that I can place a trackball anywhere. Before I started this note I was reclined all the way back in my chair with my trackball on my chest navigating slashdot in complete comfort. I tend to use it on my knee alot too.

Also another advantage is no one wants to use it. So no one is using my damned computer when I'm not around. Also the ball is perfect for flinging at your coworker.

Re:Trackball

[SLi]

I switched from mouses to trackballs some 7 years ago and my wrist problems vanished. I had a Logitech Cordless TrackMan Wheel since quite recently, and was fairly happy with it. I chose it because it felt so nice in the store. It took two months however to became used to it, and I think my thumb never got quite as accurate as I was with a mouse. Most importantly I felt it (the thumb, not the device) became less accurate after years of using it.

Now I'm using a Logitech Cordless TrackMan Optical, and I've been happy with it. I got used to it in a matter of days at most, and I can do more precise work with it.

To a mouse I'm not going back. I don't do graphics design.

Re:Trackball

[Nexx]

I used to use the Logitech Trackman Marble (with the thumb-controlled ball). I used it through college, but near the end of my terms, I began to feel a bit of pain near the base of my thumb. To this day, I still feel that pain, even though it's been a few years since I swapped back to a normal mouse.

It was nice when I used it, but now, I have to use a normal mouse for my hands.

Avoid wrist movements

[Squiffy]

I use my fingers and arm more than my wrist when moving the mouse around. Never have any problems.

Re:Avoid wrist movements

[__aadxzo5882]

Exact opposite here. I have arthritis in my base finger joints and shoulder, and with the track ball, I only have to rotate my wrist slightly, side-to-side to use the buttons. For moving the trackball itself, just a small amount of movement from the shoulder is necessary while I keep the elbow at a 90-degree angle. Whatever works best, eh?

both!

[xhrit]

I have both plugged in to my pc - one trackball and one mouse. I prefer the trackball, but like to switch to reduce strain.

Trackball or Spaceball?

[toolie]

Do you mean a trackball or a spaceball? Spaceballs are used widely with modeling software such as Catia and UniGraphics.

Re:Trackball or Spaceball?

[Osurak]

Spaceballs the pointing device! Spaceballs the T-shirt! Spaceballs the Coloring Book! Spaceballs the Lunch box! Spaceballs the Breakfast Cereal! Spaceballs the Flame Thrower (the kids love this one)

Trackpoint?

[Brian Gordon]

How about the Trackpoint on thinkpads and such? Everyone I know with a thinkpad (including myself :D) swears by the little thing.

Re:Trackpoint?

[Chanc_Gorkon]

I like my little mousy nipple! :D The Trackpoint is awesome.

Re:Trackpoint?

[Mechanik]

I like my little mousy nipple! :D The Trackpoint is awesome.

I prefer to call it the Computer Clit(TM).

Re:Trackpoint?

[Anonymous Coward]

Obligatory xkcd link.

Re:Trackpoint?

[isaac]

I've been using an IBM M13 buckling-spring (clicky) keyboard with built-in trackpoint for years. I carry it from job to job. I have a new-in-box spare in my storage unit in case it ever gets swiped (because it's sure not going to fail on its own. It's built like a tank.)

These regularly show up on ebay, just watch out you don't get a later model without the clicky keys (unless you prefer a membrane keyboard.)

Highly recommended - it's nice not to have to move my hands from the keyboard.

-Isaac

Re:Trackpoint?

[CRC'99]

I like my little mousy nipple! :D The Trackpoint is awesome.

I prefer to call it the Computer Clit(TM). I've always called it a clit stick.... It fits, as everyone always has trouble using them, some people never know where it is, and even if you do get the damn thing working right - it's never any fun for the operator....

Re:Trackpoint?

[RobertM1968]

There is actually a company that licensed the design from IBM and makes them - with and without Windows Keys (none for me thanks), and standard IBM click - or - mushy, crappy, gonna fail in a few years membrane. Havent tried them, but people claim they (the clicky ones) are as durable and well designed as the Mfg'd by Lexmark IBM Model M's (which is to say, slightly less durable, but still damn near indestructible). ( http://pckeyboard.com/ ) On a funny but very entirely true story (stories actually), I actually put that indestructible-ness to the test.

Back in 86 I worked for Valcom Computer (prolly never heard of them unless you were big into buying IBM's in the mid 80's). People would come in and ask "Why is the IBM keyboard $100 and the others $10-40?" So, I'd unplug an IBM from one of our computers, put it on the floor (tossing it tends to pop the overcaps on the keys), and then proceed to step on it, bounce up and down on it, etc... pick it back up and ask "If this was your cheap little $40 keyboard, would you want to plug it back in now and hope you didnt fry your keyboard controller or at the very least hope it still worked?" - then plug the beast back in and load the keyboard test and hit every key.

A number of years later, at a different job, after doing something similar with coworkers, we decided to see just how indestructible they were... so, after (obviously) passing the stop on it test, we took it out back and parked an Isuzu Trooper on it... then hit the gas... they keyboard went flying across the asphalt about 30 feet... was scuffed on the bottom, and of course worked fine. By that time, we were getting kinda desparate in our attempts to destroy it under something that resembled normal use, and were standing in the front of the stoor - where we saw a city bus stop at the corner (our storefront was 2 doors down from the light)... we ran out, put the Model M right in front of the big back wheels, and waited... the bus slowly crawled up (like people tend to do while waiting for a light) which put the wheel right on top of the keyboard. Finally the light changed, the bus took off, we ran out, grabbed the keyboard, waved to the guy behind the bus who was watching us with a mixture of amusement and "I think they are crazy" look on his face, and plugged it in...

So, having passed that test (yes, of course it still worked - it was only a city bus)... we decided to go upstairs and launch it off the roof (3 story drop). We threw it as far outward as possible adding to the distance travelled considerably. The keyboard must have went in total 150 feet between it's downward drop of 3 stories and the distance we launched it horizontally.

The ancient Model M's casing cracked or split in a number of places, the keycaps flew everywhere, it looked horrendous - but STILL worked.

We took a blowtorch (propane pipe welding torch like what a plumber uses) and took that to the outer casing... the weird stuff they use kinda smoldered on the outside, turning brown and black, but didnt burn through. Looked more like a bad scare from a surface burn on a human (like a cigarette burn).

Finally, we "destroyed" it with a sledge hammer. Mostly though, the hammer just ended up crushing the round key holders that rise up from the inner plastic cover - and probably a few of the keyswitches.

Neat thing is it was still easily fixable since we could have just replaced the inner and upper cover and a few keyswitches and been done (for far cheaper than a new Model M)... but we had a couple dozen at the time, so it didnt really matter and we just kept it as a conversation piece. Somewhere I have shards of the outer casing still...

Years and years ago, I gave my mom one of them... (Model M) ancient one, metal IBM logo and all... she still uses it and refuses to give it up - begging, offering to buy it, whatever... doesnt work.

And me, I have 2 Model M-13s, and slowly acquiring more... and will keep them till they die (if I dont die of old age first)... my M/M13 keyboards have outlasted every computer I have had - and will continue to do so.

Re:Trackpoint?

[GodfatherofSoul]

What's a clit?

Re:Trackpoint?

[zm]

You must be very intelligent....

For a really big trackball...

[jnaujok]

...try looking at HAPP controls http://www.happcontrols.com/trackballs/trackballs. htm.

Admittedly, they make them for the video gaming world, but they are just USB (or PS2) trackballs. You can mount them directly into a table top. Nothing like a 3" trackball to work from.

Re:For a really big trackball...

[stewbidasso]

I have a happ 3" trackball in my MAME arcade which uses WinXP and Mame32 as it's front end, so the trackball gets plenty of use as a mouse in that machine. The only real problem with it is that it's not very handy to use it one handed (the precision and feel is great, they are super quality track balls, much heavier feeling than most so you can get "momentum" going on a roll). With the buttons mounted above it, you pretty much have to have one hand on the trackball and one hand on the buttons. It works good in my arcade, but I wouldn't want to have to work like that...

Wacom

[madjalapeno]

I use pointers more than keyboard as part of my job being a CAD monkey.

About 5 years ago I started getting RSI in my wrist, and purchased a Wacom tablet. I'm now on my third, a widescreen one to match the set-up I have with 2 widescreen LCD monitors, and would never go back to using a mouse most of the time.

The ability to move the pad about to change the way you hold the pen is fantastic, and my wrist has been fine ever since. It takes a while to get used to the pad having an absolute relationship to the screen, but it's worth it.

Excercise

[Stringer Bell]

I'm a professional programmer, and spend about 50 hours a week typing, between work and home. I've found the best way to keep from having hand/wrist problems is to get regular exercise. I haul my ass to the gym 2-3 times a week like clockwork to lift weights and run. Since I've started, my hand problems have cleared up completely.

I like trackballs too. It's a mystery to me as well why they're not more widely available.

Re:Excercise

[exhilaration]

I've found the best way to keep from having hand/wrist problems is to get regular exercise.

Mod parent up! Curls, tricep extensions, and especially wrist curls completely eliminate my wrist and elbow pain. I'm sure everything else helps, but arm exercises undo the damage I do my joints each week.

Re:Logitech's Marble F/X

[gardyloo]

Forgot to mention that Logitech's driver for them, though, is a piece of shit. Consistently crashes Windows XP, and is outrageously huge. If you look carefully, you can find their old driver versions posted here and there on the web (which actually work, and aren't 45MB downloads).

      In linux, though, I just have

                InputDevice "LogitechMarble" "CorePointer"

    and

  # The following is for the Logitech Marble Trackball:

Section "InputDevice"
        Identifier "LogitechMarble"
        Driver "mouse"
# Option "CorePointer"
        Option "Protocol" "ExplorerPS/2"
        Option "Device" "/dev/input/mice"
        Option "Buttons" "9"
# Option "SendCoreEvents" "true"
        Option "Emulate3Buttons" "true"
        Option "EmulateWheel" "1"
        Option "EmulateWheelButton" "8"
        Option "EmulateWheelInertia" "5"
        Option "Emulate3Timeout" "50"
        Option "ChordMiddle"
        Option "XAxisMapping" "6 7"
        Option "YAxisMapping" "4 5"

in my xorg.conf file. Works perfectly. Wish I could get the Windows behavior to be the same!

You speak my mind on this issue.

[seebs]

I use the Kensington Expert Mouse (4-button, spinny wheel for scrolling, big ball) for nearly everything at home. My travel device is a Logitech Trackman Marble; it has the bonus that the ball stays in it at odd angles and you can put it nearly anywhere. Either is unequviocally and totally superior to any mouse I've ever used.

My Expert Mouse developed a minor nuisance, I forget what, and I asked Kensington about it. They sent me a new one as a replacement, free. Right there, we see the price difference between the Expert Mouse and cheap crap mice evaporate.

I hate mice. I love trackballs.

If you're doing a lot of graphics, you might also pick up a tablet.

Re:You speak my mind on this issue.

[cusco]

I learned typing and computer usage under DOS, so really don't like to take my hands off the keyboard. Mice just slow me down. I can get along with a touchpad, but my all-time favorite keyboard was a Keytronics with an integrated trackball in just the perfect place to be operated by either thumb. Had to leave it behind when I changed jobs, and have never seen them since.

MS can do something right

[Genevish]

Although I would have to consider myself a "Mac fanboy", Microsoft does occasionally get something right. I'm very happy with the MS optical trackball ("Microsoft TrackBall Explorer Optical Mouse") I've been using for several years. The layout is very odd (you use your thumb to right and left click, on the left side of the mouse), but works fine once you're used to it. I used to use a Kensington trackball and liked it too. Can't really remember why I went with the MS one when I replaced it.

Try one of these

[BigGar']

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N8 2E16826141001&Tpk=evoluent
I started using a vertical mouse and its helped a lot.
I've had inflammation in my mouse arm for several years now.
Since I've started using this mouse my symptoms have started to subside.
I also take more breaks, do stretches, etc to help alleviate the symptoms.
The vertical mouse helps by keeping the arm from being twisted when using the mouse.
It does take some getting used to, but its worth the effort.

Also look closely at your work environment from an ergonomic point of view. Most IT professionals I've met don't pay any attention to the ergonomics of their work station, at work or at home. I didn't for years and I've now had bilateral carpal tunnel releases, repeated tendinitis and other problems related to poor ergonomics and repetitive stress issues. I'm only 39.

Re:Also Trackball

[Constantine XVI]

Then why, may I ask, are there so many Bluetooth mice? It's not like mice, trackballs, touchpads, and trackpoints speak a fundementally different language.

KENSINGTON ROCKS, ROCKS, ROCKS!!

[EWAdams]

And yes, I *am* a fanboy, and no, I don't work for them.

Smooth as silk, baby. And with great drivers that let you control the speed and acceleration -- you can even draw your own acceleration curve.

I've used one version or another of the Kensington Expert Mouse (PC version of the Turbo Mouse) for years. I recently switched from the mechano-optical version to the purely optical. The former had the very slight disadvantage that it used to get enough cat hair in it every 9 or 10 months that it would block the sensors. But their own website had a step-by-step diagram of how to take it apart and clean it -- how cool is that? How many hardware companies actually encourage you to open the case?

I love my new four-button mouse with the sliding ring that mimics a mousewheel.

All Kensington's gear is really solid and comes with a great warranty. I only wish they made clothes and computers and cars...

Re:Logitech's Marble F/X

[advocate_one]

I have a six year old Logitech TrackMan Marble FX... It has a "drag" button on it (the small red one just by the middle button) I have never been able to get it to "drag". Does yours have a working "drag" button?

Trackball = more tendonitis for me

[spineboy]

I had the large 3" ball from Kensington with 4 buttons. I used it for a year, but kept on getting wrist tendonitis, even after trying many different positions and or supports. My wrist and fingers went back to normal after switchiiiing back to a mouse.

I've been using a mouse for computer work, with a fair amount of gaming for 13 years now with no problems.

I suspect that there will be a subset of the population that does better with trackball devices, but the market has shown which device people prefer - the mouse.

Giant Crayola Trackball

[GWBasic]

Once, when I first had wrist pain, I bought a giant Crayola trackball. It was 5-6" in diameter. Overall, it was very comfortable to use, but because it was designed for children, the buttons were on the top of the trackball instead of the bottom. Also, it required a serial port.

I ended up hooking it up to my Fraternity's jukebox computer. The drunks loved it.

Re:Once upon a time

[Cyrano de Maniac]

Simply wrong.

Take a look at the (out of production) Microsoft Trackball Explorer. The trackball movement is sensed optically, just like an optical mouse. Other than dimension and shape of the device, it's pretty much exactly the same set of components as an optical mouse (but with three bearings instead of a few Teflon glide strips).

"I'm left-handed, you ignorant clod!"

[trolltalk.com]

Using a right-handed trackball is like using right-handed scissors - awkward as all hell.

I bought a keyboard with a built-in trackball. It was nice for 15 minutes - then I gave it away because its useless!

Instead, I have 2 mice plugged into the computer - one on each side of the keyboard. I grab whichever one is convenient (dual monitors, etc). I'm thinking that for my triple-monitor setup at home I should configure X so that each monitor has a captive mouse - having to go all the way from the left side to the right side when you've got an effective horizontal resolution of 4,000 pixels is a bit much. Even with "googley eyes" it gets hard to find the mouse.

Re:Also Trackball

[UncleTogie]

Bluetooth wasn't meant for real-time communications...
Call me crazy, but don't many cell phones allow for Bluetooth headsets? T'would seem to be real-time enough...

Re:optical mice have their own issues.

[COMON$]

Try using a laser mouse instead, optical mice are good and cheap but if you want control and accuracy get a high res laser mouse and put it on whatever surface you want.

Re:My thumb isn't tired

[kwalker]

I've also got a Logitech TrackMan, and maybe it's just me, but I'm better at FPS games with it than I am with a mouse, by far. I keep the ball-stand-offs clean and can whip around faster than anyone I play with who uses a mouse. Plus I hate playing "mouse hockey" when in the middle of a firefight like others have to. A flick of the thumb and I'm facing a different direction. But yeah, I can't write my name or anything with it, though it is great for precision work in The GIMP. It's also really nice being able to just lift my thumb and have the pointer completely stop moving for any length of time.

I agree with you about the Bluetooth aspect. I won't buy their "wireless" model, but if they had a BlueTooth HID model, I'd buy five of them.

Re:optical mice have their own issues.

[lahi]

OK, your method ensures a clean desk, which is neat, but perhaps you should try lifting the mouse and reposition it at the opposite edge of the mousepad when you reach the edge and the pointer isn't "there yet". It won't hurt anything, if that's what worries you. I am curious: what would you do if you added another monitor? Upgrade to an A2 sheet?

-Lasse

Outta my yard

[Bandman]

I know you're not going to believe this, but way back in the 80s and 90s, there used to be these little rubber mats that you could, get this, pay for, to put your mouse on. Is that crazy or what? "Mouse Pads" they called them, and you used to be able to get them with pretty much anything you wanted on them, it was a hoot I tell ya. The crazy stuff we did when we were kids.

Re:Outta my yard

[Oliver Wendell Jones]

And almost every one of those "mouse pads" had a fabric surface that, get this, collected dead skins cells, dust, food crumbs, etc. and transferred them into the moving parts of the mouse and built up residual crud around the "feet" of the mouse (those little slippery plastic dots on the bottom of the mouse that it slides around on).

There were very few mouse pads that were actually good for your mouse, and often times you were better off using a flat, smooth, clean surface of your desk.

I think it was 3M that made a mouse pad that was paper thin, had one of those "tacky but not sticky" backs and a very finely textured surface that was perfect for use with a traditional "ball mouse" and the printed pattern even made it suitable for use with an optical mouse... too bad they didn't catch on with more people...