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The $200 Billion Broadband Rip-Off

Jamie noted that Cringley has a piece about the US Broadband situation. He talks about where we were and where we are: 'not very fast, not very cheap Internet service that is hurting our ability to compete economically with the rest of the world' and about the $200B the phone companies got to make it that way.

38 of 464 comments (clear)

  1. Don't blame Canada by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

    I blame lack of competition. What's needed is laws that lower the entry barrier for ISPs.

    1. Re:Don't blame Canada by viniosity · · Score: 4, Insightful

      What is needed? We need some politicians with ethics who aren't in the pocket of the telcos to actually stand up and hold them to their promises.

      Then end corporate personhood. In fact, why not write your Congressman about it today?

    2. Re:Don't blame Canada by S.O.B. · · Score: 3, Insightful

      We need some politicians with ethics who aren't in the pocket of the telcos to actually stand up and hold them to their promises.


      When it costs in the neighbourhood of $200 million to run a presidential campaign they're going to be in a number of pockets.
      --
      Some of what I say is fact, some is conjecture, the rest I'm just blowing out my ass...you guess.
    3. Re:Don't blame Canada by Captain+Splendid · · Score: 5, Insightful

      When it costs in the neighbourhood of $200 million

      Well, it will do when you make the campaign season last over a freaking year. I always cringe around election time in the US. How much productivity and money is wasted in this regular orgy of popularity contests?

      Go for the British model. Announce elections, campaign 5 weeks, over and done with.

      Forget campaign finance laws and lobbying problems. Just drastically shortening the election season alone would make a huge postive difference in the US.

      --
      Linux, you magnificent bastard, I read the fucking manual!
    4. Re:Don't blame Canada by amRadioHed · · Score: 2, Insightful

      I agree, but I think public financing of campaigns would be the more relevant issue in this context.

      --
      We hope your rules and wisdom choke you / Now we are one in everlasting peace
    5. Re:Don't blame Canada by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

      > There is No Freaking Way that Bumfark, Idaho will ever have broadband, because it's just too freaking far out into the sticks to bother with.

      This is so wrong-headed I can't even begin to comprehend it.

      "There is No Freaking Way that Bumfark, Idaho will ever have electricity, because it's just too freaking far out into the sticks to bother with."
      "There is No Freaking Way that Bumfark, Idaho will ever have telephones, because it's just too freaking far out into the sticks to bother with."
      "There is No Freaking Way that Bumfark, Idaho will ever have indoor plumbing, because it's just too freaking far out into the sticks to bother with."

      Oh, wait-- they have all those things.

    6. Re:Don't blame Canada by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

      We need some politicians with ethics who aren't in the pocket of the telcos to actually stand up and hold them to their promises.

      Wow, you live in fantasy land. Such a breed of politician does not exist, and really never has. corruption and greed has been the backbone of our government here in the USA cince day 1.

      All the founding fathers were the richest men of the land, they got pissed about being taxed on their riches and started the rebellion. That is all it really is. The poor majority did not really give a rats ass.

      not a troll, just speaking the truth as to americas' beginnings. Dont hold it up as some kind of holy event.

    7. Re:Don't blame Canada by TheVelvetFlamebait · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Rather than making employees criminally liable for orders from employers, and employers liable for criminal actions taken by employees, why not bring in the death sentence for corporations who repeatedly misbehave? After three strikes, we could revoke their charter, sell of their assets, and refund the shareholders their share of the sold assets. Unfortunately, this leaves all constituents jobless, but as tragic as that is, they would receive some warning (two previous crimes recently publicly acknowledged), and would possibly work to keep the corporation honest.

      --
      You know, there is a difference between trolling and pointing out the flaws in your reasoning. Just saying.
  2. more evidence by Bombula · · Score: 3, Insightful
    This is just the latest piece of evidence for the case that completely unbridled market capitalism is not without flaws. The biggest shortcoming, in my opinion, is the inherent contradiction between what drives the market economy and how markets work:

    Mainstream economic theory clearly states that free markets only work when they are both competitive and transparent, and yet, just as clearly, the profit motive drives companies to minimize both competition and transparency. Profit itself is therefore inherently at loggerheads with the two prerequisites of free markets. As competition and transparency decline, so does market efficiency, until at some point inefficiency yields to outright market failure. We already have market failure in many industries - oil, diamonds, OS and Office software, telecommunications - and now broadband too, it seems. It's funny this contradiction raises so few eyebrows...

    --
    A-Bomb
    1. Re:more evidence by cyber-vandal · · Score: 2, Insightful

      It's funny this contradiction raises so few eyebrows...

      Dogma is rarely questioned and when it is you get called a heretic/commie

    2. Re:more evidence by FooAtWFU · · Score: 5, Insightful

      This is just the latest piece of evidence for the case that completely unbridled market capitalism is not without flaws. Whether there are flaws in "unbridled market capitalism" or not, blaming it in this case is inappropriate, for this isn't a story of completely unbridled market capitalism! The story, and indeed the telecom industry in general, is positively fraught with government intervention and regulation. And though "The FCC was (and probably still is) managed for the benefit of the companies and their lobbyists, not for you and me," that makes it even less free-market, not more.

      I know an economics professor, incidentally, who noted that regulations on trade are generally put in place by the rich and powerful and act to keep the little people down. This is a textbook example.

      --
      The World Wide Web is dying. Soon, we shall have only the Internet.
    3. Re:more evidence by schnikies79 · · Score: 4, Insightful

      We in way shape or form have "completely unbridled market capitalism." Thats impossible when you have government granted monopolies, the FCC, etc.

      Telecoms are using government regulation in their favor. They don't want capitalism.

      --
      Gone!
    4. Re:more evidence by dal20402 · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Well it negates your point because it's the same thing over and over. For every single example you'll pull up about supposed "unbridled capitalism" quashing competition you'll find that if you actually examine the details, the lack of competition is a direct result of government interference and regulation.

      The irony here is that, despite the heavy-handed government regulation, that's actually not true in telecommunications. The lack of competition would still exist without the regulation, because once one participant has built infrastructure, other participants will usually not find their return on building duplicate infrastructure to be worth the very intensive investment it would take. The regulation simply forestalls the natural solution to this problem: making the capital-intensive infrastructure a public utility and allowing providers to do the much less capital-intensive job of competing on the public infrastructure, which would still provide the benefits of competition to consumers.

    5. Re:more evidence by king-manic · · Score: 4, Insightful

      You are focusing on the tradition way to build a telecom infrastructure. What unregulated competition encourages is "lean and mean" telecom providers that can survive by creating a cost-effective infrastructure... even if it requires them to mountn $10 hubs on telephone poles.

      Since no where on earth (no country I have ever read about) has had a company build the infrastructure from scratch if there is already an existing infrastructure, it strongly suggests that the situation you desire for "true" competition is impossible and this crippled regulatory "competition" is the best we can manage. Idealists (as capitalists are) tend to neglect data and lean heavily on appeals to emotion, authority, or down right repetition. True unbridled capitalism is impossible due entirely to not making the right assumptions about people. Just as Marxist communism is impossible because it fails to account for the same thing. Given the ability to really compete or to bride, cheat, and monopolize all companies would prefer the later.

      --
      "There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, than are dreamt of in your philosophy."
    6. Re:more evidence by wytcld · · Score: 2, Insightful

      HiTF a publicly traded company can be considered a monopoly I would like to know.
      Many publicly traded companies have been considered monopolies. Whether a company is publicly traded, privately held, or government owned is orthogonal to whether it's considered a monopoly. All that's required to be a monopoly is to have effective control of the largest part of the market for a particular good or service.

      Is it your theory that the stockholders would be motivated to have the company they own give up its monopoly advantage?

      The original copper was being put in place in the mid 1800's along with the railways.
      The longest stretches of telegraph line were put alongside the railroads, sure. But much of the mileage of telegraph lines was within and between cities in the East, where the property was not Native American-owned at the time of the wiring. Aside from which, the phone copper was a completely separate build-out, almost entirely through land not Native American-owned at the time.

      Up until the 80's the majority of old folks had their money tied up in phone stocks and government savings bonds.
      Citation? Most old folks had their money in pension funds, which in turn broadly invested across the markets.

      (Utilities were always considered a safe sector for investment - but largely consisted of electrical utilities which were exactly the same sort of local monopolies the AT&T breakup created for phone service. Investment in government bonds is exactly how we get our money back from the Chinese; and the government of course uses that money, it's not out of circulation.)
      --
      "with their freedom lost all virtue lose" - Milton
  3. For A Start by JamesRose · · Score: 5, Insightful

    These companies can sell you an 8 meg broadband connection, they'll sell it to 100 people and the line they're selling this on is an 80meg connection (example, not right numbers but right point). Any industry that can do this legally (or just get away with it) is clearly going to screw any consumer they can.

    1. Re:For A Start by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Every industry does this legally.

      Go outside and look at the electric lines leading into your house. How much current can you draw over them? It's probably a hefty amount. Now go look at all your neighbors and add it up. Then look at the distribution system. Guess what will happen if you all start drawing the maximum amount of current at the same time.

      Go into your bathroom and turn on your shower full blast. Guess what will happen if everyone in your neighborhood did the same thing at the same time.

      Go to your local grocery store and buy some bread. Look at how much bread they have on the shelves. Guess what will happen if every single person who patronizes this store decides to buy bread at the same time.

      Get in your car and get on the roads. Guess what will happen if everyone in your neighborhood did the same thing at the same time.

      Overselling is a fact of life and a necessity of economics. The problem is not overselling, the problem is when it's squeezed too much. It would be unreasonable for all bandwidth to be enough to simultaneously serve every single customer at the maximum rate, it simply can't work. But the problem is that the current ISPs often push things too far so that you lose performance during peak hours. That, not overselling, is the real problem here.

    2. Re:For A Start by the+grace+of+R'hllor · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Meh, that's not really a good point. I don't need my 8Mbit (which I actually have) all the time. If my ISP can juggle usage patterns to ensure I get my 8Mbit when I need it, why should I care? It's the main way to actually turn a profit on this internet business. At least, when there's some competition. In the Netherlands, low-end internet connections are provided at a net loss to the major ISP's.

      Think of it as insurance, or banks. If we all needed our insurance to pay up, we'd get nothing and the insurance company would go belly up. Same with banks. Aggregating resources and parcelling them out according to need is a pretty standard way of doing business.

    3. Re:For A Start by kimvette · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Every industry does this legally.


      No, they don't. A grocery store doesn't charge you for a full loaf of bread and then tell you sorry, you can have only two slices because they sold that same loaf to 9 other people.

      The gas company doesn't charge you for 10,000 cubic feet of gas and then come back and tell you that you can use only 1,000 cubic feet because they oversold.

      A law company doesn't work for 3 hours and charge you for 30.

      That would be called "fraud" in any industry other than telecom.
      --
      The Christian Right is Neither (Christian nor right). See: Matthew 23, Matthew 25, Ezekiel 16:48-50
    4. Re:For A Start by jrumney · · Score: 3, Insightful

      You seem to be making a case here for paying by the megabyte. Do you really want that?

  4. The State of Broadband Today? by morari · · Score: 5, Insightful

    'not very fast, not very cheap Internet[..] And not very available either. Much more of the country is without than is with, I can assure you. The telecoms and cable companies don't care though. For some reason putting out a bit of money for a long-term payoff just doesn't register with corporations.
    --
    "He who can destroy a thing, controls a thing." --Paul Atreides, Dune
  5. Broadband in Holland by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Let me tell you 'bout my friend in Holland. And, no, I don't mean Holland, Michigan. I mean Holland, Holland.

    He pays some ridiculous amount of money monthly, 10 or 20 Euros, and gets high speed broadband, TV (including the porn channels) and phone. His mortgage is 3.8%. Sex of any kind is not against the law and he can travel to any country in the EU without even slowing down as he drives across the border. At the risk of going off topic, do I need to add that health care and education are free.

    Could it be that there's something not quite right here in America?

    1. Re:Broadband in Holland by ShaneThePain · · Score: 1, Insightful

      America has its fair share of problems, but we arn't going to fix them with socialism.

      --
      Fascism is the greatest political ideology ever conceived. Sorry.
    2. Re:Broadband in Holland by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

      i bet you his mortgage and his taxes are more then my mortgage and my taxes. you're being selective about what he has and what he pays. lay out his bank statements and tax statements and we will start to do comparisons.

    3. Re:Broadband in Holland by FooAtWFU · · Score: 2, Insightful

      At the risk of going off topic, do I need to add that health care and education are free. Free. Right. Yeah. That's cute.

      Just because someone else (or, really, everyone else) pays for it doesn't mean it's free.

      --
      The World Wide Web is dying. Soon, we shall have only the Internet.
  6. You coulnd not be more wrong... by BarnabyWilde · · Score: 2, Insightful

    ...about "completely unbridled market capitalism".

    What we have here is the exact opposite: Central-planning. And it has gone haywire, as it usually does.

    Throw in a touch of the corruption that centralized power allows, add a little protective legislation, and you get what we have today.

    Methinks you tend toward Marxist-style central control.

    1. Re:You coulnd not be more wrong... by enrevanche · · Score: 3, Insightful
      This is not government central planning, but corporate central planning. This really has nothing to do with the regulation causing this fiasco, but that the regulation was pointless, that the major telcos just did whatever they wanted anyway.

      What you don't understand, is that effective regulation is required to have any kind of long-term competitive market, especially when the product is not a commodity.

  7. Re:Umm... have a look at their taxes.... by dal20402 · · Score: 4, Insightful

    I would happily pay double my existing taxes to get a country with effective universal health care, a modern and well-maintained infrastructure, a people-focused government, and the financial condition of the Netherlands. Instead, I get low taxes and... nothing at all to show for those low taxes, because the people are so ignorant and apathetic that the government long ago stopped bothering with trying to serve them.

  8. Re:Not cheap? by dal20402 · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Because in several other countries your $15 a month would get you between 20-100 Mb/s both down and up.

  9. Let's see by zoomshorts · · Score: 4, Insightful

    I got ADSL In 1996 , back when it was 1.5 Mb download and 120Kb upload, today, eleven years later
    I get 8 Mb download and 385 Kb upload, at about 30 percent higher pricing.

    Basically broadband in the US is crap. If those various companies mentioned in the article
    were forced to refund the money they got for giving us nothing, and I agree we got nothing,
    they would be singing a different tune. I say send them a bill for the money they received, but did
    not spend on actually providing that which they said they would, PLUS interest.

    Broadband should be defined at 20Mb down and 20 Mb up. Period. Too much time has elapsed
    with basically zero quality or quantity increases.

  10. Re:How exactly non-competitive? by dal20402 · · Score: 4, Insightful

    You can't watch live video of any quality; you can't use any sort of interactive video link; you can't use any remote desktop solution with any level of fluidity; you can only participate in collaborative development with a very limited number of participants; you can't participate in e-commerce of any significant volume; you can't download software updates or revisions without tying up your connection entirely for minutes or hours; and, perhaps most significantly for the economy, you can't consume new, bandwidth-intensive applications such as sophisticated online gaming.

  11. Re:Simple question by Dunbal · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Rural areas don't drive the American economy, and particularly high-speed Internet at the home is not a driving economic force, mostly it's useful for pirating movies. How is lower-quality broadband out in the middle of Bumfuck, Iowa, hurting the American economy?

          OK everyone in rural areas stop working, and let's see what happens when kamapuaa realizes that his food is not grown in the supermarket. Rural areas DO drive the economy - just not the part YOU think is important.

    --
    Seven puppies were harmed during the making of this post.
  12. Re:Well, what did you expect? by Courageous · · Score: 2, Insightful

    In most of America, only two companies are allowed to run wires into your home, the local telco monopoly and the local cable monopoly.

    Not true. In California (and many other states), there is no dejure cable monopoly. All cable companies are "allowed" to run cable if they so elect. The nature of the problem isn't that they aren't allowed, but rather that they'd rather not. I.e., they are indeed a natural monopoly. Alas, they are not regulated as one.

    C//

  13. Re:Umm... have a look at their taxes.... by Creepy+Crawler · · Score: 3, Insightful

    I really think you have to live in the USA to understand where we come from.

    Our country was founded that government is evil. The tradeoff here is that no government is worse, so it's a lesser of 2 evils choice.

    Because of the belief that government (and direct influence, like govt provided health) is evil, we should keep as much as we can away from it. Also, most have a deep distrust against government.

    Nations like Denmark are not evil, or disgusting because they have socialized medicine, or they provide subsidized university degrees, but we distrust it. Quite a few people don't understand why they do "hate" it, but many do understand that government will screw it up. That's just our culture.

    I'd say it probably also has to do with Randian-like beliefs within one of our ruling parties (Republicans). However, due to Bush, 2006 congressional elections swayed to strong Democrat, and we will most likely have a Democrat ruler at 2008.

    USA is a 2-party election with very small 3rd parties that have little/no sway. We have an election every 2 years, changing all of the House and 1/3 of senate. The House and Senate are a bicameral Legislative body. House terms are 2 years, while Senate terms are 6. Every 4 years is a presidential election.

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  14. Re:I want broadband/DSL... by kb7oeb · · Score: 3, Insightful

    They do owe, we all pay into something called the universal service fund that subsidizes the cost to connect distant and otherwise unprofitable customers.

  15. Re: "... physical network be a public utility" by macraig · · Score: 4, Insightful

    This is exactly what I argued at the CPUC hearings for the AT&T-SBC merger. I started off by saying that a mistake was made thirty years ago, when AT&T was forced to divide itself King-Solomon-like. What should have happened, instead, is that AT&T should been forced to become a nonprofit corporation or pseudo-governmental agency, similar to the Postal Service.

    Our postal network and roads and highways are generally recognized as common shared infrastructure; we don't allow the construction companies that build and maintain them to OWN the sections upon which they work, do we? Given that telecom and data networks are every bit as much shared public infrastructure, why then have we allowed the corporations that built those to own the pieces?

    We fucked up many decades ago, perhaps as far back as the first telegraph lines, when we failed to recognize that the components that make up electronic (and now digital) public networks are common infrastructure, of the same sort as highways, and thus infrastructure which should be publicly owned. This is one instance where MORE socialism, not less, would be an enormously good thing.

  16. Re:People in the US are used to playing the victim by Cadallin · · Score: 2, Insightful
    I'm not so sure about those sub-prime mortgages. Mostly because there are vast, vast forces aligned at keeping that from happening. One of the interesting phenomena about the ongoing situation is how it threatens to trigger a "readjustment" (and I'm using the term as a euphemism for "collapse") in the valuation of the US dollar. Despite Nixon's nuking of Bretton Woods in '71, the US dollar is still used as a reserve currency throughout the world. A revaluation of the dollar would cause a loss of untold trillions of (present day) dollars of value overnight (or call it untold metric tonnes of gold evaporating). Such an event might very well make the great depression look like a whimper. Which is why we saw governments around the world spend billions to buy up US dollars (basically any government sufficiently stable to do so, did.) in order to avert just such a disaster.

    I see this situation as even more precarious than you do, because the minute a major power decides they don't need to keep funding the homes, SUV's and Big Macs in the United States, it's all going to go down the tubes. The USA is an incredible drain on the world economy. I'm terrified of the day that dries up, because it is not going to be pretty. What exactly happens when the USA's economy grinds to a screeching halt, with the only thing the USA has to its name is a few hundred ICBMs, with China being the major industrial superpower? I'm not really convinced anything has changed to keep such volatilities from erupting in the same way they did in the first half of the 20th century.

  17. Re:Just look at your examples though by macraig · · Score: 2, Insightful

    You're quibbling over trivial crap and missing the Big Picture: we wouldn't now be having huge battles over 'Net neutrality if disparate pieces of the infrastructure weren't privately owned. The same goes for cable companies: we wouldn't have had to endure channel "bundling" and other evil tactics if we hadn't allowed them little monopolistic fiefdoms of privately owned infrastructure.

    Back to the Big Telecoms, need I remind you that cities and counties can't even manage to create their own publicly owned wireless infrastructure, because every single time they try they get sued by the local telecom, claiming "anti-competitive practices"?

    Big Telecom wants to keep the infrastructure private, because that is their means of control of their fiefdoms, in the same way that drug and genetics patents enable Big Pharma to maintain control of their fiefdoms. That right there is the strongest argument in favor of making all such public infrastructures publicly owned.