Slashdot Mirror


States Seek More Oversight of Microsoft

taoman1 writes "A group of states led by California said in a court filing Thursday that ending oversight of Microsoft's business practices in November would not allow enough time to consider the antitrust implications of Windows Vista. The states want oversight extended at least through early next year. 'The justice department said in its report that while Microsoft's operating system market share hasn't dropped because of the consent decree, "it would misapprehend the purpose of the Final Judgments to rely on these facts to argue that the Final Judgments have been ineffective. Microsoft was never found to have acquired or increased its monopoly market share unlawfully." In its report, Microsoft directly countered California's claims and said, the "Final Judgments were never designed to reduce Microsoft's share in any putative market."'"

23 of 155 comments (clear)

  1. Not a good thing by OS24Ever · · Score: 3, Insightful

    I'm all for making the playing field even and all, but federal/state oversight of the operating system is a bad idea. Is it just MS you want to oversite, or is it the computer OS so you can start regulating what people use, or charging taxes because regulation doesn't come free.

    Just seems like a big Pandora's box of things would be opened up.

    --

    As a rock-in-roll Physicist once said, No matter where you go, there you are.

    1. Re:Not a good thing by gfxguy · · Score: 4, Insightful

      I hate MS for what they've done in the past, but the free market is working and I'm getting a little sick of the government interference. Vista's adoption has been really slow, consumers aren't all that hyped for it, more and more people are discovering MacOS and liking it.

      Sure, Windows still has the major share, but I don't think anything the government's done has been what has decreased the overall share. Actually, quite the contrary... while on one side they had all this oversight, on the other the U.S. government has been one of the biggest buyers.

      People are getting sick of MS all on their own. As long as we keep harping about it to our friends and families and keep introducing them to alternatives, and getting our schools and churches and places of business to try alternatives, we're fine.

      --
      Stupid sexy Flanders.
    2. Re:Not a good thing by Byzboy · · Score: 2, Insightful
      >People are getting sick of MS all on their own. As long as we keep harping about it to our friends and families and keep introducing them to alternatives, and getting our schools and churches and places of business to try alternatives, we're fine.

      So? Has anything changed? Linux has been going to take the desktop next year for how many years? So people don't like Vista, well they didn't like XP or win98 or... but they still bought it because all the paths lead to MS products. In high tech once your established all the doors slam shut on your competitors. There are so many barriers to new entrants. Is it any wonder linux took of in the server market where MS didn't dominate. Of course Linux not being a company helps because it can't be bankrupted by questionable MS business practises.

      Like it or not the market has NOT been able to change MS or promote any competitors in its established markets. And MS has been able to continue to grow regardless of quality (lack thereof) in new markets because of its huge cash reserves. The only thing that has come close to stopping the more nefarious MS business practises has been big governments ie US and EU. The bigger the country and thereby government the more clout. Sorry if this upsets all you libertarians but real life has a way of doing that.

    3. Re:Not a good thing by gfxguy · · Score: 3, Insightful

      I am a libertarian, in fact, but that doesn't mean that I completely disagree with government interference in a monopoly.

      So sorry your favorite OS has not taken over the world, but you don't get to use the government to do it. Now look at this topic - they want oversight of Vista, the OS, this doesn't concern anything else MS may be up to, just what it's doing with it's OS.

      And MS HAS lost market share to MacOS (and perhaps fractionally Linux), and it did so because of the free market, not anything the government has done.

      Don't confuse this issue with MS's other business practices unrelated to the OS itself.

      --
      Stupid sexy Flanders.
    4. Re:Not a good thing by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

      Sure, because that worked SO well for AT&T.

    5. Re:Not a good thing by StringBlade · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Linux has been going to take the desktop next year for how many years? So people don't like Vista, well they didn't like XP or win98 or... but they still bought it because all the paths lead to MS products.

      No operating system takes over market share in a day (or even usually in a year). It's a gradual change and what we're seeing now is the beginning of a gradual change away from Microsoft as the only OS. Mac OS X has started to gain momentum but for the past 5 years or so they've been adding a few hundred (probably) new users a year who switched from Windows. Likewise desktop Linux has been gaining perhaps several dozen new desktop users from the Windows market share each year. At times there are bursts of new people (Ubuntu's surprising popularity is one, Apple's "switch" campaign is another) but the growth is steady. People are created every day, but most of the people switching to Linux or Mac OS X are probably not infants and therefore coming from some OS (most likely Windows).

      I think it's untrue that people didn't like Windows 98. In my experience, that's the version that most people liked the most until XP -- but XP was more or less a forced upgrade and after an initial hesitation people warmed up to it. Conversely, many people I've spoken with who voluntarily tried Vista in its various betas including the final release still do not see any value in "upgrading" from XP. I agree eventually everyone staying with Windows will have to upgrade to Vista because XP will not be supported in software and protection from malicious attacks, but in terms of people disliking Windows I think there are two favorites: 98(SE in particular) and XP

      Lastly, uptake of any new OS really must start with business. Most people probably learned to use Windows at work or school because that's what the computers there ran. If a majority of businesses decided it was more economically feasible to switch to SuSE Linux Enterprise Desktop (SLED) and use OpenOffice.org with ODF instead of Windows Vista with Office 2007 then people would necessarily be required to learn how to use Linux (same goes for Mac OS X as the alternative workplace desktop). Chances are good then that you'd see several things: 1) an increased usage of Linux at home, 2) an increased demand for Linux-compatible software and hardware, 3) more software being written cross-platform (or at least more commercial software offerings for Linux), 4) Microsoft's market share drop sharply within a few years

      The point of all this being, just because Microsoft "always has been" doesn't mean it always will be. There is a tipping point and it need not be sudden, but it exists and it will be reached. After that, it'll be a race for the most fit to fill the gap left by the Microsoft exodus. That's not to say Microsoft will go away. On the contrary, I'm sure Microsoft will always have it's attractors and detractors but it will not always have its market dominance and when it loses that it will need to change from arrogant to meek to win market back.

      --
      ...and that's the way the cookie crumbles.
    6. Re:Not a good thing by Guppy06 · · Score: 2, Insightful

      "Indeed, the better thing to have done would have been to split the damn company up. "

      We split up Standard Oil. How many oil companies do we have now, and how much do they cooperate rather than compete with each other?

      We split up AT&T. How many telephone companies do we have now, and how much do they cooperate rather than compete with each other?

    7. Re:Not a good thing by TheDauthi · · Score: 2, Insightful

      The problem isn't that Linux/MacOS/etc haven't overtaken Windows on the desktop. That hasn't happened because, for various reasons, they're not ready to overtake the Windows monopoly. Apple is aimed at a different market and doesn't really want the beige-box x86 clones - they didn't buy Apple hardware. Linux is still a hacker OS - it's missing little bits of polish and shine, but slowly improving.

      And frankly, that's fine. The market is deciding on that one, and they're gradually deciding to stick with an older version of Windows, MacOS [and not use a beige-box], or even Linux. It sounds like you're missing the purpose that the oversight might be needed for - keeping the arena fair. In all likelihood, Windows will remain the dominant desktop OS for some time. Oversight should not be about removing that monopoly, but about keeping Microsoft from abusing that monopoly to kill off competitors, or entrench itself in another market space.

    8. Re:Not a good thing by Coryoth · · Score: 3, Insightful

      There are so many barriers to new entrants. Is it any wonder linux took of in the server market where MS didn't dominate. It's worth noting that Linux only gets by in the desktop market, where application base is one of the largest barriers to entry, because of its open source nature and the surrounding philosophically motivated developer community. MacOS X gets by via legacy support -- that is, they were once big enough and had a large enough application base, and remained strong enough in niches (such as graphics and design) that they've managed to keep an application base. Newcomers that didn't have either of those advantages (including BeOS and NeXT) got crushed regardless of superior quality. The only way NeXTStep got anywhere was by rebranding as MacOS and dragging the Mac developer community along kicking and screaming.

      Breaking into the desktop market is very hard indeed, and the barriers are ridiculously steep. We're just very lucky that a couple of special cases happened to squeak through -- and note that even having gotten past the barrier to entry and getting onto the field, application base remains an exceptionally powerful obstruction to actually managing to compete. Linux and MacOS may be on the field, but it is still far from level.
    9. Re:Not a good thing by cmacb · · Score: 2, Insightful

      I am a libertarian, in fact, but that doesn't mean that I completely disagree with government interference in a monopoly.


      Same here.

      But this has never been a case of oversight. It's a case of misdirection, the magicians trick of getting you to pay attention to his left hand, while he does something sneaky with his right hand.

      I can't say with certainty that Microsoft's biggest customer is the federal government, but it has to be way up there. Add to that the fact that many many private businesses exist only to service government contracts. Add to that the fact that some federal agencies act as role models for others, especially when it comes to technologies issues.

      Which federal agencies are the leaders and which are the followers? I know a couple, but I'd be guessing at the rest. Some people at Microsoft know the exact pecking order though.

      In the early and mid nineties there was a big push to eliminate the inefficiencies of rooms and rooms of file cabinets filled with paper. The intentions were good, even though the technology hadn't quite got up to speed in making electronic alternatives better in every sense.

      It was during this time when the feds mandated that proposals for work and other official documents submitted to it be in Word format rather than WordPerfect. It should have never been WordPerfect in the first place, it should have been a selection of popular formats, and to reduce the impact of conversions, flat file (txt) format with separate (jpg or gif) graphics should have been acceptable too. But the feds wanted to make things easy on themselves and not have to bother with multiple formats, so they picked one (WP) and then a few years later picked another (Word).

      That sealed the fate of any word processing program or archival program, or *operating system* that wasn't compatible with Word. This linkage between Word (and subsequently Excel) and OSs, hardware, and other applications has of course been the centerpiece of this anti-trust debate, but it would have been mostly moot were it not for the feds dependency on one or two Microsoft applications.

      Ask any federal worker you know why they are not only supporting, but guaranteeing a monopoly by transferring and storing information in a single vendor's formats. When that changes, the monopoly will end, and I agree that no further action will be required.
    10. Re:Not a good thing by bigpat · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Sorry if this upsets all you libertarians but real life has a way of doing that. A free market is one that has rules that everyone has to follow. A thoughtful libertarian understands that government has an important and proper role in setting rules for the marketplace and enforcing them on everyone equally. I think it is right that government authority should be imposed when any company or individual has achieved a monopoly of control over the market and it is good that elected representatives should make sure that a monopolist doesn't use that market control to keep others from competing or to prevent others from getting goods and services at a fair price.

      Liberty and Freedom are not equivalent to anarchy, and you do a disservice to everyone by perpetuating that falsehood.

    11. Re:Not a good thing by ajs · · Score: 2, Insightful

      I am a libertarian, in fact At first, I read that as "I am a librarian..." I was wondering why that had anything to do with the discussion. ;-)

      And MS HAS lost market share to MacOS (and perhaps fractionally Linux), and it did so because of the free market, not anything the government has done. All politics aside, this is clearly false (though that should say "the governments," plural.

      Microsoft has had to tone down their anti-competitive practices substantially over the course of the last 10 years. They have been fighting a long and painful battle in the EU over their practices there, and they have had to relinquish tremendous control over the deployment of their operating system in the U.S. The anti-trust suit may have been eviscerated by the Bush administration when they took over, but the damage was substantially done, and a direct return to their previous practices would have forced the hand of a now-friendly Justice Department, not to mention civil suits.

      The U.S. States also had something to do with this. Their constant efforts to push MS into adopting and supporting broader standards has changed the way MS has handled many of their data decisions.

      Microsoft's current market position simply cannot be separated from the efforts of governments over the last decade to control their trade practices.
  2. Re:Oops by BlueStrat · · Score: 2, Insightful

    It looks like M$ didn't grease the Governator's palm thoroughly enough...

    It seems they *did* do a thorough job on the DOJ and congress, though.

    --
    Progressivism (aka US 'Liberalism'): Ideas so good they need a police/surveillance-state to enforce.
  3. market share drop by ohearn · · Score: 3, Insightful

    "The justice department said in its report that while Microsoft's operating system market share hasn't dropped because of the consent decree,"

    No, but it might drop because Vista has been the best advertizing that OS X and Linux could ask for.

  4. Likely modded into oblivion by Pojut · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Because of a seemingly "pro-microsoft" stance this may show, but why are people and the government so up in arms about the monopoly that Microsoft has when absolutely NOTHING is being done about broadband ISPs, phone companies, oil companies (well we all know the answer to that one) and the RIAA/MPAA?

    1. Re:Likely modded into oblivion by nine-times · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Two wrongs don't make a right. Nothing has been done about a lot of bad situations, but why does that mean that nothing should be done about a particular bad situation?

  5. Market Share is unlikely to drop for a long time by JeremyGNJ · · Score: 2, Insightful

    The OS market "wants" a near monopoly. It's very good for a lot of reasons.

    The advantages are more toward business IT and developers, and less toward home-users....but the former are the ones who drive the market.

  6. One thing I'll never understand ... by BrianRoach · · Score: 4, Insightful


    There is one main thing that maintains microsoft's illegal monopoly: interoperability.

    If the settlement had said "You (M$) must make your file formats and server protocols (exchange) available", there would be a whole lot more folks not needing to buy MS products because there would be other viable* alternatives.

    * Yes, I know about (and use) OpenOffice, Evolution, etc ... but none of these offer 100% interoperability which is really important when it comes to business. And people use their home computers for work at least on some level. I can't rely on Oo to properly format an important word doc - I always email it to myself, open it at work, and often need to tweak the formatting a bit.

    - Roach

    1. Re:One thing I'll never understand ... by BrianRoach · · Score: 4, Insightful

      MS Office doesn't offer 100% interoperability. Funnily enough. Similar amounts of tweaking required there between versions.

      And you don't think this is by design?

      Why else would everyone need the latest version?

      - Roach

  7. It's not the OS, it's the business practice... by tjstork · · Score: 2, Insightful

    It's not bundling software, it's not embrace and extend, that gets Microsoft into hot water. That's all authoring of software, and rivals all bundle, and all would embrace and extend if they could.

    It's when Microsoft calls up hardware vendors such as Dell and tells them that they will have their Windows license revoked if they sell another OS, that's where you need the Feds to step in. At that point, Microsoft is not investing to add features, but is really working to the detrminent of consumers.

    That Microsoft engages in such behavior is already proven. During the OS/2 vs Windows days, Microsoft threatened IBM with license termination if they continued to promote and develop OS/2. IBM withdrew. During the Netscape wars, Microsoft strong armed vendors to bundle the inferior IE2.0 with Windows 95, which confused the market long enough to deny Netscape needed funding for a future release, AND, bought Microsoft time to make an IE 4.0 which really was a better product. In the former case, Microsoft was engaging in restraint of trade, and in the second case, they were tying, both of which are illegal under the Sherman Anti-Trust Act.

    The only thing that saved them in the USA is that what constitutes tying in the software business is entirely up in the air. In general, the government under any modern administration wants to give businesses as free as a hand as possible to arrange their product offerings. In Europe, however, this is not nearly so much the case, and geopolitical concerns play as well. The EU is something of an economic rival to the USA, and thus they have absolutely no problem slamming Microsoft in any number of ways, and they have.

    --
    This is my sig.
  8. About The Best Thing The Fed And States Could Do by Greyfox · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Rather than saddling Microsoft with some sort of corporate herpes, they should make it easier (or possible) to consider non-Microsoft operating systems for federal and state contracts. They could also mandate that all state and federal business be done using open file formats and open protocols. That would go a long way toward encouraging alternatives right there.

    --

    I'm trying to teach myself to set people on fire with my mind... Is it hot in here?

  9. Re:Novel Solution by RightSaidFred99 · · Score: 1, Insightful
    How exactly have they abused their position, again? I'm geniunely curious about what forms of illegal coersion they've used. Surely they've been proven to have used goons to physically force OEMS or customers to purchase. No? Hmm... I get it, maybe they've bribed government officials and been convicted. Not that either?

    They haven't abused anything. They're a business, barring fraud, assault, corruption of government officials they haven't done shit wrong under the decree or in fact even before it. I know the old argument the socialist scum in "true capitalist" clothing will use, the free market doesn't work right without some rules. And of course, that's a load of shit but they seem so intelligent and reasonable when they say it.

    The fact is that the free market only needs to be open to scrutiny and regulated, not controlled. The only reasonable use for antitrust law is against open collusion between multiple companies and against companies with government granted monopolies over physically limited resources. This whole witch hunt against Microsoft has been silly, and nobody but MS's competitors (who Antitrust is not designed to protect - it's for consumers) and you bunch of filthy nerds has any problem with MS.

  10. Re:Market Share is unlikely to drop for a long tim by AJWM · · Score: 2, Insightful

    The OS market "wants" a near monopoly.

    Nonsense. It wants a standard (for portability), that doesn't have to be provided by a monopoly. In fact there already is a standard for operating systems, ISO/IEC 9945, and most IT vendors support it (or something very close).

    Microsoft (and some uninformed natterers not clear on the point) call their products "standard", but they're confusing that term with "ubiquitous". Heck, given that there are so many not very compatible versions of Microsofts own products, they can hardly be considered standard. (Is "standard Windows" Vista or XP or ???)

    --
    -- Alastair