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Wikileaks Breaks $3 Billion Corruption Story

James Hardine writes Wikileaks, the website for whistleblowers, has broken one of the world's biggest corruption stories in the international press (Guardian, BBC, Forbes, Sydney Morning Herald). The site has leaked a secret report on looting by ex-president Moi of Kenya — and possibly altered the outcome of an impending national election. Moi has become a key player in political life in Kenya, and is now an essential pillar in President Kibaki's campaign for re-election in December 2007. From the Wikileaks page: 'The suppressed auditor's report reveals that currency worth billions of US dollars was looted from Kenya by President Moi and his associates. The money was laundered across the world and includes properties and shell companies in London, New York and South Africa and even a 10,000 hectare ranch in Australia.'"

16 of 206 comments (clear)

  1. this is the result of socialism by backslashdot · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Socialism which centralizes all p;power in the government, causes this. When the same government that is responsible for policing, is repsonsible for economic activity such as providing electricity and even news to the public .. seriously fucked up shit like this can happen. It irreverasbly fucks a country hard.

    Show me where socialism and government control over business activity has brought about prosperity and lifted a country out of poverty? I can show examples for capitalism: China, Singapore, South Korea (contrast with North Korea which was considered richer than S. Korea before the split -- and S. Korea was as poor as any African country).

    1. Re:this is the result of socialism by Crazy+Taco · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Agreed. And just take a look at the countries of Eastern Europe as long as we are citing examples. They are doing FAR better than they ever were under the socialist/communist policies they followed throughout the cold war. Japan is another example of an Asian country that is no longer in poverty either. They got their buts kicked in WWII and didn't have anything, but now are one of the wealthiest countries in the world.

      Now lets look at countries that are following socialism. I'm betting heavilly that we aren't going to see Venezuela becoming an economic powerhouse under Hugo Chavez. They might stay afloat economically, but that will be almost entirely thanks to oil and nothing else. It certainly won't propel them into having any sort of real, diversified economy in which the vast majority of the population gets out of poverty.

      --
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    2. Re:this is the result of socialism by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

      Bullshit.
      If you examined those countries you mentioned they are social, in that they care about the people and involve in statewide programs, exactly what you said is bad.
      Pure capitalism is as bad as pure socialism.

    3. Re:this is the result of socialism by McDutchie · · Score: 1, Insightful

      Show me where socialism and government control over business activity has brought about prosperity and lifted a country out of poverty?

      Germany. The Netherlands. Belgium. France. The UK. The Scandinavian countries. And even Canada. Need I go on?

      Of course, after privatizing essential facilities such as electricity and railways, some of these countries are now significantly more fscked up than they were ten or twenty years ago.

    4. Re:this is the result of socialism by GreyWolf3000 · · Score: 5, Insightful

      I gotta say, when I read reports like this, it's not 'capitalism' or 'socialism' that I end up blaming...

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    5. Re:this is the result of socialism by localman · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Agreed: pure socialism doesn't work well. But neither does pure capitalism. What is interesting to me is trying to find the balance. I tend far towards the capitalist side myself, even sympathizing with Libertarian ideas. But then I realize that all ideals are subject to their limitations when implemented in reality.

      For example: welfare. In a perfect world there would be no such thing and everyone would make their own way or pay the price. So we abolish welfare. Problem is, there will always be a percentage of people who don't make it and who cause those who do to pay the price through theft and violence and being a general nuisance. So it is better for the people who make it to set aside some amount of their income to keep these people living at least at a level where crime upon others is minimized but so is freeloading. Make living at the bottom of the barrel nice enough to prevent crime yet uncomfortable enough that only the most serious hard cases would put up with it. There's no perfect solution, but there is an optimal balance point.

      Call it extortion by the poor, but in a pragmatic sense your money that goes towards welfare stabilizes things in a way that benefits you more than just holding on to that money would. There are countries that go too far in that direction, redistributing wealth, and have serious problems. There are countries that don't do any wealth redistribution, and they have different serious problems. Finding that balance... which few talk about... is really the puzzle. But we just get caught up in arguing about which extreme is correct, holding on to impractical ideals.

      The same balancing act applies to many areas; health care, government mitigating the tragedy of the commons, copyright. How much should the governement get involved in things? For a healthy society the answer is close to "none", but it's not "none".

      Cheers.

    6. Re:this is the result of socialism by gowen · · Score: 2, Insightful

      I'm betting heavilly that we aren't going to see Venezuela becoming an economic powerhouse under Hugo Chavez. They might stay afloat economically, but that will be almost entirely thanks to oil and nothing else. It certainly won't propel them into having any sort of real, diversified economy in which the vast majority of the population gets out of poverty.
      And how is this different from beacon-of-capitalism and friend-of-America, Saudi Arabia? Except that Chavez is elected and the House of Saud isn't?
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    7. Re:this is the result of socialism by mike2R · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Germany. The Netherlands. Belgium. France. The UK. The Scandinavian countries. And even Canada. Need I go on?

      Of course, after privatizing essential facilities such as electricity and railways, some of these countries are now significantly more fscked up than they were ten or twenty years ago.

      The only way I can describe that is Bollocks.

      I'm not supporting grandparent's idea that socialism is the cause of corruption in Kenya, but to see socialism in Britain as an economic success story is just plain wrong.

      What was the economic legacy of socialist governments in Britain? Rampant unions, unemployment, loss making state-owned manufacturing industries that were decades out of date.

      caricaturisation
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    8. Re:this is the result of socialism by clang_jangle · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Thanks for posting that, it's a fascinating account. If you write a history book I will buy it.
      However I must take exception to attributing the horrors and abuses of the Soviet government to socialism or communism. The USSR was about as true an example of "socialism" as the US is of "democracy".
      Socialism didn't cause the problems, just as democracy didn't cause the oil war. The bastards who succeed at politics always promote an ideology, but they do not follow it. Whether it's socialism or capitalism, it's always the same kind of crooks doing the exact same things.
      Some of the Scandinavian countries are doing very well blending socialism and capitalism, BTW. Something we are sadly still too brainwashed to do here in the US. :(

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    9. Re:this is the result of socialism by PPH · · Score: 2, Insightful

      And how is this different from beacon-of-capitalism and friend-of-America, Saudi Arabia? Except that Chavez is elected and the House of Saud isn't?
      Same problems, different labels. The neocons still suffer from knee-jerk reactions against anything labeled 'Socialist' due to our experiences during the Cold War.

      One other factor to consider is whether US interests are given a cut of the profits. The Saudis throw some business to American contractors, so they must be benign.

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    10. Re:this is the result of socialism by Scrameustache · · Score: 2, Insightful

      the first man in space was Yuri Gagarin Corerction: The first man in space that survived the landing in good enough shape to be paraded in public afterwards was Yuri Gagarin.
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      You can't take the sky from me...

  2. Re:What about legal looting? by krou · · Score: 5, Insightful

    I've been following the Wikileaks idea for a bit, every since Cryptome published a bunch of info about it.

    I'm in two minds about Wikileaks. On the one hand, the idea is kind of cool - I'm all for whistle-blowers, and think they perform a vital function. It's sometimes important for the public to see information that could be blocked from public release due to legal pressures.

    But on the other hand, maybe that information should not be in the public domain, as it could put lives at risk (as was argued in the previous link).

    Also, it's ultimately flawed in the same way that business Web 2.0 review-type sites are flawed: you can't trust the information worth a damn. People have a terrible habit of trying to set up someone they feel disgruntled about, or wish to slander a company that they feel treated them unfairly. Or, of course, they could just be out to rubbish a competitor.

    Wikileaks is likely to become a stomping ground of disinformation, misinformation, and vendettas, and if they think the wisdom of the crowds is going to be able to judge that a piece of information is, in fact, a forgery, they're fools.

    Also, who exactly will be held accountable when it's used, say, to swing an election, only for us to discover that the information in question was bogus? Wikileaks? Will they hand over the leaker?

    I can't help but feel that Wikileaks may, in fact, do more harm than good. A few bad incidents at Wikileaks, and it's highly likely that the law (and government, business etc.) is going to come down hard to silence legitimate whistle-blowers under the pretext of protecting themselves from slander and libel.

    What's really needed is a system of legal mechanisms to encourage and protect leakers in the real world, as well as allow a system of accountability. The incidents described by leakers who stepped forward regarding corruption in Iraq indicates that there are simply not enough legal avenues open to help and protect whistle-blowers.

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  3. Re:Google knows all by eli+pabst · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Wait, I though the meme this week was to crucify Bush for *not* engaging in foreign affairs? I hate Bush as much as the next person, but it's like he's the freakin' boogieman or something...don't look under the bed or W will git ya!

  4. What do I win? by Kadin2048 · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Bonus points for pic with Bush! You mean, like this one? No Halliburton sign, or pile of dead Iraqi babies to stand on (at least not that we can see), but a little Photoshop can fix that right up.
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  5. It's the corruption, not the ideology by wytcld · · Score: 3, Insightful

    All this discussion about "capitalism" versus "socialism" - as if worshiping the correct ideology could ward off the corrupt, who will take anything and everything, given the chance. It isn't the ism. There's no magic ism that make all your children beautiful and virtuous, and all of some competing ism's children ugly thieves. That mistake is the one Cheney's people made: that if we just give corrupt foreign lands democracy-ism they'll become virtuous paradises of freedom.

    Not that the isms make no difference. But the difference is of style, not virtue. It's like the difference between rock-n-roll-ism and jazz-ism. Most rock-n-roll, and most jazz, is a faint and corrupted echo of the truly great exemplars. Virtue in a musician isn't a matter of which ism they've pursued, but of how they've pursued it. There are great jazz bands, and lousy ones; great rock bands, and lousy ones; great socialist countries (e.g. Sweden), and lousy ones (e.g. Burma); great capitalist countries (e.g. Taiwan), and lousy oness (e.g. Nigeria). Your taste in examples my differ; the point remains that its not what you do (socialist, capitalist, whatever), it's how you do it.

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    "with their freedom lost all virtue lose" - Milton
  6. Free speech by DerangedAlchemist · · Score: 2, Insightful
    Your arguments for and against Wikileaks are very, very similar to arguments for and against free speech. Although many people think they believe in free speech, in practice many say they believe in free speech except for THAT. In other words, they don't believe in free speech but think they do because they don't understand the concept but have been told it is a good thing.

    Also, who exactly will be held accountable when it's used, say, to swing an election, only for us to discover that the information in question was bogus? Wikileaks? Will they hand over the leaker?

    Who is called accountable as it is? Say a presidential candidate lied/carefully misinformed using half-truths for his own ends. Now say major news agencies collaborate the lies/misinformation. Who gets held accountable? If dissenting views are presented somewhere, even somewhere less reputable and sometimes full of crackpots, is that worse than not having them at all?

    I can't help but feel that Wikileaks may, in fact, do more harm than good. A few bad incidents at Wikileaks, and it's highly likely that the law (and government, business etc.) is going to come down hard to silence legitimate whistle-blowers under the pretext of protecting themselves from slander and libel.

    If they do, it's only to attack freedom to express non-controlled views. These kinds of abuses would destroy the credibility of Wikileaks, which makes slander and libel impossible.

    Wikileaks allow starting points for more credible investigations that would not be explored if no one thought anything was wrong.

    News could be censored so only the truth is aired. This would be more accurate as long as the censor only edited out false and misleading information. Just like a benign dictator can do more good for the people of his country with his greater power than the leader of a democracy. But dictatorships have a nasty habit of not retaining benign leader and censors have a nasty habit of blocking information they shouldn't even when they are full of good intentions.

    Despite all the crap that comes out of free speech, very important ideas that would have been suppressed emerged too. Some societies have decided that suppressing these important ideas causes more damage than allowing bad ideas be expressed.