Slashdot Mirror


States and DoJ Divided On Microsoft Antitrust Success

Rob writes "Computer Business Review is reporting that the US Department of Justice and five States have declared themselves satisfied with the antitrust enforcement efforts taken against Microsoft despite a further seven States maintaining they have had 'little or no discernible impact in the marketplace.' While the US DoJ and five States — New York, Louisiana, Maryland, Ohio, and Wisconsin (The New York Group) — reported that the final judgments have succeeded in increasing competition to the benefit of consumers, seven States making up the California Group are not convinced."

19 of 123 comments (clear)

  1. The question is simple by BadAnalogyGuy · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Are you more able today to buy a computer without a Microsoft OS than you were 4 years ago?

    1. Re:The question is simple by gatzke · · Score: 5, Insightful


      Your questions is ridiculous.

      You always have had choices. Mac has always been there. There have always been linux shops that sell hardware. More expensive and less support, but you could do it.

      How do you define "more able" to buy something? Price? Availability? Support? Number of vendors?

      MS bundles products, closes interfaces, and forces new version upgrades. This is an abuse of monopoly power.

      IANAL, but MS was declared a monopoly back around 2000. I don't think a judge ever declared them to no longer be a monopoly, so I assume that ruling stands.

      http://www.ecommercetimes.com/story/2479.html

    2. Re:The question is simple by jorghis · · Score: 2, Insightful

      You always could. Apple has been selling PCs since before most slashdotters were born. Noone is forcing you to buy a windows pc. The issue isnt whether or not non-windows computers are avaiable. The issue is whether or not MS is unfairly using its dominant consumer OS position to gain market share in other applications.

    3. Re:The question is simple by nine-times · · Score: 2, Insightful

      That's not the question, though. The question is, is Microsoft still engaging in anti-competitive practices? Are they continuing to leverage their monopoly with Windows and their monopoly with Office to reinforce each other? Are they leveraging those monopolies to force users to adopt other Microsoft products? Do they have APIs in Windows/Office/Exchange that they aren't really making public in order to stifle competition? Are they continuing to use their own proprietary standards, protocols, and file-formats when open alternatives are available, purely in order to reinforce their vendor lock-in?

      There are more questions of that sort to ask, but the question is, as a monopoly, is Microsoft engaging in anti-trust violations? And though it might not legally be the issue, perhaps most important issue in my mind is, is Microsoft harming the software industry and hampering innovation for the purpose of maintaining a dominant market position?

      Basically, is Microsoft causing more harm than good? If so, we should try to change the situation somehow, and antitrust laws seem like a good place to start.

    4. Re:The question is simple by The+Spoonman · · Score: 2, Insightful

      He didn't ask whether it is possible to buy a non-Microsoft PC. Of course it has always been possible. He asked how easy it is. This is a quite legitimate question, even if as you point out it includes several different factors such as price and number of vendors.

      But, the question implies that the "average user" is shopping around to get a Linux PC. As the major vendors have shown, when they offer it as an option, it rarely sells. The price benefit certainly isn't there (an average cost drop of about $50 since OEMs don't pay retail for Windows). So, the question should be: "How easy is it for the average user to purchase a Linux PC?" The reason the question isn't asked like this is simply the answer: "Not very, but they're not looking for it anyway".

      It's documented that Microsoft has entered into restrictive contracts with OEMs so they pay per PC sold, whether or not it includes Windows.

      Well documented, indeed. Now, show me the documentation that it's happened since the 1995 ruling making said contracts illegal? No conspiracy theories, please, actual documentation.

      A simple injunctive remedy IHMO would be to require that Microsoft sell Windows licences at the same price to all vendors, and that the licence be paid for only if Windows is included with the PC.

      The second is already in place and has been since 1995. The first is just the kind of poor thinking that's prevelant on Slashdot. Who sets the price? The courts? How do they determine said price? How often is it revisited? Is it a percentage of cost to produce a profit? Are you going to require that of other OS vendors since you're hampering one for being too successful? See, it's not a "simple" injunction, is it?

      You are quite right about the bundling of products etc. That is another example of monopoly power

      No, it's not, it's an example of providing customers with what they've asked for. Show me a desktop Linux distribution that doesn't come with a web browser. Show me one without some kind of media player. For that matter, show me a Mac with those limitations. Can't, can you? Why do you think that is? Because people use computers these days for connectivity. Without a browser, a machine (and OS) is useless, so MS provides you with one. My question has always been: If they didn't provide you with a browser (or any other kind of "Internet client"), how would you get one? Go to the store and buy a disk with Firefox on it? Have a friend download it for you? The backlash would be immediate and valid. Just because MS provides you with a browser, doesn't mean you have to use it. Just because they provide you a media player, doesn't mean you have to use it. There's nothing stopping anyone from using a Mozilla product on a Windows box and never has been (aside from the tremendously poor coding back when it was still a Netscape product). I don't have a single box that I use IE on. I prefer Media Player to the other options, though. :) Arguments against "bundling" IE are just as valid as "bundling" Notepad. Aren't you concerned about all of the people who make text editors being put out of work?

      It doesn't make the complaint about Microsoft preventing OEMs from offering Windows-free PCs any less valid.

      No, reality already does a good enough job of that.

      --
      Which is more painful? Going to work or gouging your eye out with a spoon? Find out!
      http://www.workorspoon.com
  2. Ah ha! by morgan_greywolf · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Well, now we know which states Microsoft has the most paid lobbyists in.

    Seriously, I don't see how the antitrust suit has had much bearing on Microsoft's behavior. They continue to act like a monopolist. Prices for Microsoft operating systems have actually gone UP, not down (despite prices for virtually everything else in their industry dropping) and their market share hasn't changed significantly in anyway -- when it has changed, it's been due to superior and/or cheaper products, such as all-in-one file servers with embedded OS, Linux, or improvements in Apple's Mac OS X.

    1. Re:Ah ha! by elrous0 · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Not exactly shocking to hear that California (where Apple is based) is not satisfied with the Washington-based MS's anti-trust efforts. Sad to be that cynical, but these things almost always boil down to politics over substance.

      --
      SJW: Someone who has run out of real oppression, and has to fake it.
  3. Actually, it's quite simple... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Insightful

    For Microsoft it's just a business decision. If the fines for not complying are smaller than the loss they would face by complying, then they won't change anything and just pay the fine. This has happened in Europe, where they had to pay hundreds of million of dollars and elsewhere.

    This is just another example how much power they wield and how _corrupt_ some states in the US (and ofc elsewhere) are.

  4. Re:Oddly enough... by speaker+of+the+truth · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Yes they still do certain things, but many things have changed. And yet you haven't mentioned what they do differently.
    --
    Using openSUSE instead of Windows since 9th of October, 2007 and liking it.
  5. Web standards noncompliance by wombatmobile · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Microsoft's continued abuse of its monopoly for operating systems is clearly apparent in its failure to implement web standards in IE.

    Smaller browser vendors with vastly less funding have made giant strides in their implementations of CSS, SVG, mathml and DOM. Microsoft has done as little as possible to implement those standards, but somehow has found the resources and the rationalization to implement SilVerliGht, which is a stolen, bastardized clone of SVG.

    Unlike 10 years ago, the world has moved past its reliance on Microsoft to embrace other vendors products willingly. No wonder IE's market share continues to fall precipitously.

    1. Re:Web standards noncompliance by speaker+of+the+truth · · Score: 2, Insightful

      The option is obvious of course. To adhere to standards they haven't stolen. Or are you trying to claim that Microsoft hasn't been tampering with the standard approval process?

      --
      Using openSUSE instead of Windows since 9th of October, 2007 and liking it.
    2. Re:Web standards noncompliance by MikkoIkonen · · Score: 2, Insightful

      "First, it criticizes Microsoft for ignoring or failing to implement standards. Then, it criticizes Microsoft for participating in the standards process and implementing standards."

      Nowhere does anyone criticize Microsoft for implementing standards because they simply haven't implemented standards .

      The OP criticizes Microsoft for implementing a "bastardized clone" of a standard, which is not the same thing as a standard. It is the obverse of a standard.

      When browser vendors all implement the same standard markup, designers and developers only have to write web pages *once*. Designs and web applications can *flourish* because they are cheap to make and quick to appear.

      When browser vendors each implement different markup languages, designers and developers suffer the nightmare of having to write and debug web pages and web applications again and again and again and again. Consumers miss out on new designs and new applications. The world is stuck in 1997, which suits Microsoft just fine since 1997 was a very profitable year for that company.

      Meanwhile, for consumers, 2007 is a choice between buying Vista for more than they payed for an operating system in 1997, and buying five year old XP for the same price as they would pay for Vista! Do you get excited by that kind of choice?

  6. The DoJ has to say it worked by tbannist · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Really the Department of Justice deliberately bungled the law suit, and now they have no choice but to claim it's a success till the bitter end. The last thing they want is yet another investigation into official mismanagement and White House interference in a anti-trust case. Immediately after Bush was elected they pulled all senior DoJ staff off of the case and left only a few inexperienced lawyers (from that Bible School they're so fond of hiring from) on the case.

    They had Microsoft up against a wall, and then suddenly they were best buddies with Microsoft and nothing had ever really been wrong in the first place. It was sickening and another black eye for the United States, but if at any point the DoJ admits that it's unsastisfied with the results, it opens up an old can worms for the house or the senate to investigate.

    --
    Fanatically anti-fanatical
    1. Re:The DoJ has to say it worked by DragonWriter · · Score: 2, Insightful

      They had Microsoft up against a wall, and then suddenly they were best buddies with Microsoft


      Elections have consequences.
  7. Re:Oddly enough... by Eponymous+Bastard · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Would you count tampering with ISO approval process for OOXML to standardize something only they can implement as furthering their monopoly? Suddenly they can keep locking in documents from government bodies that require an ISO standard file format

    Seriously, this has been on /. all week

  8. Re:Oddly enough... by monkville · · Score: 1, Insightful

    Apart for 2b and 8 ( which are debatable at best), the rest seem to be normal business activites which any other for-profit organisation would undertake.

  9. A possible remedial solution.... by jkrise · · Score: 2, Insightful

    I think extreme situations require extreme measures, and it is clear that the anti-trust control measures are not only ineffective; they are actually a suit of armour for Microsoft to further abuse their monopoly power. The world has close to a billion PCs now; that's a huge number given there's about 6 billion people. If the US will not act, and the EU will not be allowed to act... bodies like the ECMA and ISO will be subverted; then someone else has to take up the fight to bring justice.

    More worrying than the monopoly is the fact that the PC burns much more power and is inferior as a platform compared to even small devices like cellphones, game devices and appliances. The failure of the OOXML fast track process shows that there is still hope, if only the whole world can act in concert. I suggest some measures to bring speedy correction in the PC industry:

    1. Any component of the PC that does not conform to published, patent unencumbered standards must be taxed - this includes processors, video cards, winprinters, winmodems, audio devices, DRM chips, TCPA engines, kernels, hypervisors, operating systems, word processors etc. etc. The tax must be high enough to deter unscrupulous mfrs. to dictate their 'default' standards and abuse their positions to the detriment of the platform, the consumer and the market. A 30% tax should be levied for starters, and the corpus must be used to fund devleopment of 'free' alternatives in each segment above.

    The recent network 'penalty' while playing system sounds in Vista is a case in point. Could Microsoft have got away with a 'published' audio device and driver architecture under a transparent benchmarking system? Who will compensate for the 'defective' protected media path architecture? Will the h/w mfrs freely replace their buggy cards with better performing ones? Countries other than the US must force them to do so.

    2. Patents must be abolished in the PC industry - it is clear from the unholy MS - Novell alliance that even the biggest firms cannot enforce their patents, and they actually hinder innovation; and encourage cartels. The EU and several other nations do not still recognise s/w patents; the 15 year lifespan for a patent is absurd even in the h/w industry where monopolies can be built up in undre 5 years.

    3. International standards need to be evolved that govern the use of the internet - it is too big and valuable to be subject to the machincations of a toothless US commerce agency. Companies that actively or passively contribute to the abuse of the internet must be punished and / or taxed. For instance, is a particular OS is the platform of choice for botnets, then the mfr. of the OS must fix the problem within a reasonable timeframe, or else open the source so the community will fix it themselves.

    The proceedings in some of the standards bodies on the OOXML vote shows that they can govern the IT industry better than the anti-trust agencies. I tihnk they must be allowed to have a say, now that the US bodies have failed.

    --
    If you keep throwing chairs, one day you'll break windows....
  10. Linux on the desktop (Dell, HP, Lenovo) by Dark+Fire · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Is it possible that the reason that Dell, HP, and Lenovo are now offering desktop PCs with Linux has little to do with Linux and it's merits and more to do with the fact that the antitrust enforcement against Microsoft is about to expire and is up for review/renewal. OEM bullying to lockout competitors was one of the biggest complaints against Microsoft. But since the big 3 desktop PC vendors are selling Linux, the measures slapped on Microsoft have obviously worked and are no longer needed.

  11. OEM Madness by organgtool · · Score: 2, Insightful

    What annoys me is how most organizations focus on the inclusion of Windows Media Player and Internet Explorer in Windows despite the bigger antitrust violations that Microsoft has been commiting for years. Probably the worst antitrust offense Microsoft is commiting lies in its OEM license terms for Windows. Companies large and small rely on the huge discount that comes from selling OEM versions of Windows on their hardware, but the license terms prevent those vendors from selling PC's with no operating systems installed on them as well as PC's set up to dual boot Windows along with any other operating system. Yes, I know that FreeDOS has been used to work around the former of those problems, but regardless of the effectiveness of these tactics is the fact that Microsoft attempts to use such anti-competitive practices and the fact that they are always overlooked.

    And on a slightly different note, could the fact that Windows is the only operating system that doesn't have a boot loader with the capability to load other operating systems be considered anti-competitive? Linux has had this feature for many years and even OS X supports dual-booting Windows, but Windows simply overwrites the MBR and renders all other installed operating systems to be unbootable until a recovery disk is used to repair the boot loader.

    And finally, my biggest complaint about the EU and the US DOJ is that they fined Microsoft for including WMP and IE in Windows, but they have made little to no effort to "vote with their wallets" and use other operating systems. If they really found Microsoft's tactics to be anti-competitive, they could back up their statements by at least considering the use one of the many viable alternatives to Windows. Instead, they issue a fine while continuing to use Windows (hypocrites?) and make themselves look like a bunch of greedy grab-asses out to get a piece of the Microsoft pie. EU and US DOJ: actions speak louder than cheap (relative to Microsoft) fines.