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Barrier to Web 2.0 — IT Departments

jcatcw writes "Wikis, social networks, and other Web 2.0 technologies are finding resistance inside companies from the very people who should be rolling them out: the IT staff. The National Endowment for Science, Technology and the Arts (NESTA) in London had to bypass IT to get Web 2.0 technologies to end users. Both Morgan Stanley and Pfizer are rolling out Web 2.0 projects, but it took some grass roots organizing to get there."

14 of 328 comments (clear)

  1. Possible Explanation by MightyMartian · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Perhaps it's because IT departments actually know how complicated, messy, potentially insecure and how awful support of such "projects" are going to be. As a general rule of thumb, tech-types don't usually give into the hype about things like Web 2.0 that columnists, marketers and your usual assortment of weirdos do.

    --
    The world's burning. Moped Jesus spotted on I50. Details at 11.
    1. Re:Possible Explanation by garcia · · Score: 5, Informative

      Perhaps it's because IT departments actually know how complicated, messy, potentially insecure and how awful support of such "projects" are going to be. As a general rule of thumb, tech-types don't usually give into the hype about things like Web 2.0 that columnists, marketers and your usual assortment of weirdos do.

      Fuck Web 2.0, IT departments are slow to move on any project except those that somehow benefit IT itself. We have an extraordinarily difficult time getting IT to update broken links on our website (we used to have access via the shitty CMS they were running but they now took that away too) nevermind solutions such as chat, online appointment scheduling, or additional databases to store information captured from web forms.

      We have had to go to third party outfits that specialize in hosting their own web application solutions and paying them yearly sums of money to do for us what IT will not. Not a single department has a decent relationship with IT at any of the last few places I have worked (especially the current) and we're all wasting money because of it.

      So, while Web 2.0 is an example, I can name 100 other issues that are not Web 2.0 that are priority that they also will not support -- and it has nothing to do with those that work in IT not accepting the "fads" that others will.

    2. Re:Possible Explanation by MightyMartian · · Score: 5, Insightful

      It's too bad your IT department won't fix broken links, but jumping into AJAX and related technologies without properly assessing security and maintenance costs is insane. It's the IT guys who are going to have to deal with all of this one way or the other, so they're probably quite happy that some outsider is going to have the pleasure and pain.

      Web 2.0 is about 80% hype, 10% mature technologies and 10% immature technologies. Marketers are pushing hard for this (through their loyal minions the columnist and the tech reporter), but I still think when the guys who maintain all of this are saying "Whoah, let's think real hard about this", someone ought to listen. Blaming IT is simply shooting the messenger.

      --
      The world's burning. Moped Jesus spotted on I50. Details at 11.
    3. Re:Possible Explanation by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Funny

      Your problem is that you need to kill the BOFH. You will need a silver stake, electrical gloves, KCN pills, a SCBA, 20 oz of deionized water blessed by a geek, and The New Testament. Don't enter at night, and don't expect to catch the BOFH by surprise. They don't sleep, they lurk. If you can sabotage the coffee and soda machines you can drive them out of their lair. Otherwise you may have to defeat their army of PFYs. Good luck! And if they capture you and decide to Megger your balls, use the cyanide pills.

    4. Re:Possible Explanation by cHiphead · · Score: 5, Insightful

      In this case, maybe Web developers should be forced to learn about REAL server security and stop blaming the fucking IT departments when we respond with a resounding "no" to their requests that contain little or no concern for their shit quality code (RAILS? ARE YOU KIDDING ME?) they want to put on the front of a site for a fortune 500 company where any hack = negative pr = negative revenues as calculated by point hairs = blame the fucking IT department. At least when you are forced to implement it inside(the horrible, nightmare of a shitfest) Sharepoint, us guys in IT can fall back a little tiny bit on blaming MS for shoddy work and the newness of their product when the CEO and CIO come downstairs to tear off OUR heads. IT is on the line for server security and WE get reamed when a web dev team's work goes south.

      Its frankly laughable that you suggest the IT group shouldn't be running exterior services and suggest an external web group should work 'with them', web dev should be under the oversight of IT managers.

      "IT" does not mean HELP DESK.

      Cheers.

      --

      This is my sig. There are many like it, but this one is mine.
  2. Duh.. by TBerben · · Score: 5, Funny

    Of course the IT 1.0 staff is causing trouble, companies need to upgrade them to 2.0 first!

  3. Spin by Rycross · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Am I the only one who read this as:

    "IT departments are wisely refusing to spend uneeded man hours and money on technological buzzwords that will not help, and will likely hurt, the business. Management foolishly decided to override them instead of listening."

    Maybe I'm just jaded.

  4. Absolutely true by hobo+sapiens · · Score: 5, Interesting

    The company I work for is a VERY large tech company. We are JUST NOW starting to roll out things like Wiki and forum based support for applications, social networking software, etc. It's quite sad. I am sure this is the case in most IT departments in most large corporations. I have some theories as to why:

    1) the obvious, resistance from upper management. Upper management is afraid of being "bleeding edge". New stuff, and especially open source stuff, is scary. PHBs fail to realize that the F/OSS community operates on a different set of values than corporations. Corporations only offer free stuff if it gets them good PR or creates a bunch of indentured customers. There is much FOSS that is quite viable, but it usually gets turned down in favor of proprietary crap.

    2) complacent IT staff. In many large companies, the people who make decisions have promoted to their level of incompetence. In turn, they just phone it in, just do the minimum they need to do to get by. This precludes their actually learning anything new. When the decision makers are victims of FUD, what do you want?

    3) red tape. Where I work, if you want to use non-standard software you have submit an exception, which then has to get approved by the people in bullet point number 2 above. It also has to get sent to upper management. Some supervisors are afraid of that and so strongly discourage you from submitting these exceptions. So people just use the same old software in the same old ways and nobody actually keeps up with the industry.

    Case in point: on my intranet, AJAX use is still pretty small scale. Maybe for certain internet sites, AJAX isn't always appropriate, but on the intranet, where you can ensure that everyone is using a somewhat modern browser, it's an obvious choice for certain things. Yet, you still have people developing sites the same way sites have been developed for ten years. I use AJAX heavily, and you'd be surprised how people are still amazed by it. But now there is a push to call libraries like prototype "software" and thus make them subject to regulation and corporate standards. Standards committees cannot keep up with the industry, so you have a situation where you cannot, by decree, use anything *too* new. I can see disallowing joe service rep from installing webshots on his PC, but disallowing a developer from using his software of choice is pretty shortsighted.

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    blah blah blah
  5. Re:Too bad! by hobo+sapiens · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Web 2.0 is a slippery term. If by web 2.0 you mean user-generated content, then I have to disagree.

    One example: wiki based support. I find that people are, for many reasons, willing to help others. Some may like showing how much they know. Some are altruistic. And so on. Now, let's say you have an application that gets used by 25000 people and a development team of 15 people. You probably don't have time to support the application to the extent it needs. Enter a wiki. If you have a wiki, that can at least minimize the questions / requests sent to your team, leaving you to focus on enhancements, future looking stuff, etc. Using a wiki, you can actually get your user base to at least partially support itself.

    Sure, a social networking site *might* not be the right thing for you F500 company's intranet. But a wiki might be just what you need.

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    blah blah blah
  6. Who works for whom? by oatworm · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Wow. I know this is Slashdot, but this is getting ridiculous. IT departments have one job and one job only:

    Support the elements of the company that make money.

    That's it. That's our job. If the elements of whatever company we're working for wants a "Web 2.0" app, instead of immediately jumping on our pedestals and saying, "Whoa there, mister! That's insecure and NEW! Put that thing away," we should instead be asking ourselves, "Hey, what problem are they trying to solve with this, and can we find a better solution?" When the employees are using Gmail or Facebook for inter-office communication, it means we're not doing our jobs, not because we're not locking down outside communication paths but because the communication paths we're providing are inadequate. When our customers start firing up MSN Messenger without our permission, we should be asking ourselves what we can use that's better, more secure, and easier to manage in an enterprise. When our customers come up to us and say, "We're tired of chasing Word docs everywhere - we're getting a wiki to manage our information", we should be looking at their problems and figuring out if a wiki is the best solution, or if they really just need a document management system.

    Get it? WE are at the disposal and discretion of our coworkers, NOT the other way around.

  7. De-aggregate angsty tags to IT channel-partners. by delire · · Score: 5, Interesting
    Web 2.Oooh isn't a technology, a thing or even a classifiable approach to client-server engineering. It's the term given to a fad whereby users freely contribute content to increase the bankable assets of entrepreneurs that generally use impossibly complex and dubious EULA's for their own gain.

    Perhaps IT staff aren't keen on implementing it because they don't buy into The Silliness. Call it "Capitalism Meets Social Engineering 2.0" and perhaps the guys in suits with MacBooks and artistic mohawks might have takers in IT.

    As Mark Pilgrim so eloquently put it:

    "Praising companies for providing APIs to get your own data out is like praising auto companies for not filling your airbags with gravel. I'm not saying data export isn't important, it's just aiming kinda low. You mean when I give you data, you'll give it back to me? People who think this is the pinnacle of freedom aren't really worth listening to."
    For those of you wanting to make a proverbial killing of this 'phenomenon' I refer you to a vital dictionary of terms.
  8. Reading between the lines by laron · · Score: 5, Insightful

    When Adam Carson, an associate at Morgan Stanley, first began pushing the use of Web 2.0 tools, he faced a major obstacle in the New York-based investment bank's 10,000-member IT department. "Most of our IT department didn't get it," he said. "This was all new to them. They had just been stuck in the world of enterprise IT."

    So, the IT department would have prefered to do their job (enterprise IT) instead of building something just to use the tools.

    However, he said he worked closely with IT team members to convince them of the merits of Web 2.0, which led them to implement Asynchronous JavaScript and XML (AJAX) technologies, a key requirement for building and supporting Web 2.0 tools

    He didn't stop nagging until they told an intern to cobble something together and paint the relevant acronyms in two feet letters on it.

    Once IT was convinced of the value of Web 2.0, he said, the organization was "really good at making sure that [systems] worked really well and didn't break, but they weren't really good at making sure ... people liked using them."

    So, people don't use the new-fangled stuff. Obviously this is the fault of IT, and not because they don't see the need.

    Carson noted that the company now has about 80 Web 2.0 projects under way, including an effort to create social networks for its clients.

    Now we have 80 unused projects. Even our customers refuse to use theirs so far.

    During the education process, Carson said he also had to find a manager that would require the use of a Web 2.0 tool for a specific project.

    He had an hammer and was looking for a nail. A screw would probably work as well.

    That would help spur employees to use the new tools, he noted. The effort also faced cultural resistance from some users clinging to the use of e-mail and other traditional tools rather than switch to new Web 2.0 collaboration tools, he added.

    So, with hard work he managed to have something implemented that nobody else thought necessary. Now he is looking for a way to make the users use it.

    --
    "Beware of he who would deny you access to information, for in his heart he dreams himself your master."
  9. Re:The other side by zerocool^ · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Case in point: I'm the linux admin for the place that I work (a Computer Science department at a university). I support linux-on-desktop, our remote login cluster, a bunch of random servers that faculty members decide they need because "I need feature X that is [so insanely out of date | so insanely bleeding edge] that our infrastructure isn't going to support it". I manage licenses for a dozen mathematical, statistical, and otherwise proprietary closed source programs. Lately, the Mac guy quit, so all of a sudden, I'm also the support for the Macintosh folks. I manage the linux backup rotation, which is all nightly rsync-based. I handle the linux half of our windows domain / ldap / kerberos / nfs-automount / samba / cifs single log-on system. I also am still the admin for a handful of Sun servers, and (believe it or not) a few DEC Alphas we have running Tru/64 (or whatever the hell it's called now) Unix. I can't tell you how many projects have been installed/written/maintained by Graduate students who have since left school that fall into my lap when the faculty member realizes no one is maintaining random-app-that-no-one-uses-but-must-always-be-wor king. Oh, I also am in charge of maintaining the stock of toner for the 25-odd different laser printers we have, and distributing it out to people when they come knocking.

    What am I spending about 8-10 hours of my 40 hour work week on lately? The powers that be decided that they could fire the part-time student work-study that we used to have to do odd IT jobs, and now, I manage 30-odd card-swipe door locks, which a monkey could do, and which are a huge time sink, considering they're spread out across 3 buildings among 5 square miles, and everyone wants them updated at least three times a week. So, I have to cart one of two different laptops to each physical key card lock and update them.

    If I don't get around to moving your Laserjet printer from computer A to computer B, configuring the cups server, and reconfiguring all other 9 computers in your project lab to print to the new server today, it's cause I'm freaking busy. If I can't figure out why your mouse doesn't refocus on matlab on your home linux box when you SSH into the cluster and display the graphical component locally, I'm sorry. If I can't get your bleeding-edge hot off the assembly line wireless card to work in any of [fedora core 5 | fedora core 6 | ubuntu | Centos 5.0] with several different kernels and everything from the stable to the nightly build of NDISwrapper, and the best I can do is that it works *most of the time*, and only causes a kernel panic *sometimes*, I'm sorry. If I can't find an unused room for your new multimedia lab, move 8 powermacs across campus, set them up, get the networking people to install and activate network ports (after getting the paperwork pushed through the financial people), and set up all your software by the time you teach class on Wednesday, when you tell me Monday afternoon, and especially when I had sent out emails in freaking JUNE asking what needed to be done for the upcoming fall semester, sorry - I'm only human.

    Honestly, I know a lot of IT staff are lazy control freaks, but come on - some of us are spinning our wheels trying to move as fast as we can, while you all are pulling us in 40 different directions. We're expected to be master of all trades, and that takes time and effort. And I don't respond well to insults, questions of ability, yelling, or last-minute-emergencies-that-could-have-been-preve nted. Try smiling and doing a bit of planning in advance, and you'll go far. Trust me.

    ~Will

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    sig?
  10. Re:The other side by Basehart · · Score: 5, Funny

    FWIW seeing IE7 and web 2.0 in the same sentence makes me want to drink Draino. Good luck.