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Is Apple Doing All It Can to Beat Vista?

aalobode writes "The New York Times is running an article on the narrowing window that Apple has for beating Microsoft's Vista. According the Times, not enough has been done to capitalize on the Mac user experience versus the 'world of hurt that is Vista'. It also points out that that restructuring of Apple leaves ambiguities about Apple's exact commitment to the computer end of its business. The article calls MS Vista's certified vendors, developers and driver writers a flywheel that takes a while coming up to speed - and then becomes unstoppable."

13 of 773 comments (clear)

  1. service pack by Carbon016 · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Once SP1 hits, the flywheel's going to spin a LOT faster.

    1. Re:service pack by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

      "Seriously, why would you want to buy a Mac if you can have Ubuntu, apart from Adobe/Macromedia products?"

      Oh, I don't know, Apple products? Ableton products? Native Instruments products? Steinberg products? Propellorhead products? Corel products? Quartz? Colour matching built right into the drawing engine? A whole slew of audio, video, modeling, graphics, typesetting and printing (as in not your rgb inkjet) and media applications?

      "UI looks as funky (if not funkier), more available software, albeit most of it is OSS or free."

      "Looks". Heh. It's never been about how the UI looks. The UI is more or less the same as it's been since System 7. It's about how the UI _works_, it's about how the UI acts and feels, it's about integration, simplicity and slickness. It's about doing what it does and doing it responsively with a minimal resources. I'll guarantee you that KDE won't be nearly responsive on a 233 G3 w/ 192mb ran as Tiger was. Only people who don't actually use Macs figure that it's how the UI looks. (and I'll concede, I think Enlightenment 17, and certain KDE setups are allot prettier, but neither works as NextStep did, and OS X does.) These are the same people who pitch compiz as the greatest thing since the colour monitor, sure it looks pretty, but it in no way boosts functionality, and all it exists for is to look pretty. And lets not forget the CLI, all the power under the hood of a full-out POSIX compliant BSD core, and weather or not you ever actually use the command shell is entirely a matter of preference and choice, and that's how it *should* be.

      "more available software, albeit most of it is OSS or free."

      Again, it's fairly clear you've never actually used a Mac. Fink (apt for Darwin), and DarwinPorts offer the free software. What, you thought the POSIX compliant, BSD core was for show? Ad don't forget all the wonderful non-free software availible for the platform. How's that for choice, you get your pick from the best of both worlds.

      "The only good thing about Macs is the look of the case, and even THAT is a matter of taste."

      SGI cases were prettier, but I digress. If all you're doing is checking emails, word processing and some dev work, Ubuntu is fine. But once you get to any level of _serious_ creative work, Macintosh is the only viable option left with the demise of Irix. And let's not forget the bit about everything working with minimal hassle on the Mac. Ever tried using a graphics tablet as your core pointer in Ubuntu? Or using a KAOS pad? Or just about any higher end, vaguely exotic multimedia hardware, for that matter? Yeah, I didn't think so.

      Just as an FWI, I've used various Unices for the past 15 years (Irix, Solaris, AIX, Free/Open BSD, Interix, Linux, and Darwin/OSX) Linux for close to 10. But there's this way of thinking tat doesn't seem to be too common these days, "using the best tool for the job". Linux has it's uses, serious creative work isn't one of them. It may be good enough for what YOU do, but don't assume that everyone else's needs match your own. And for fuck's sake, if you're going to criticize something, use it first. You read like one of those pointless Linux distro reviews that bases the whole thing on the install sequence, then offers a generic gnome screenshot, and somehow thinks there's anything even remotely useful in the article.

    2. Re:service pack by Mode_Locrian · · Score: 5, Insightful

      "Seriously, why would you want to buy a Mac if you can have Ubuntu, apart from Adobe/Macromedia products?"

      First off, I'm typing this post on my Ubuntu Fiesty desktop. That said, I've also got a MacBook running OSX, which I absolutely love. The reason why I have a Mac? It's all about the apps. Most of the apps that I use on a regular basis in my workflow are free, awesome, and Cocoa or otherwise Mac-only. I'm thinking particularly of Quicksilver, Journler, iGTD, and Skim. There just aren't apps of these types that work this cleanly (and work *together* this cleanly) available for Ubuntu (at least, afaik--I'm happy to be proven wrong).

      That said, there are some apps that I run on my Ubuntu box that beat the pants off of anything with a similar function for OSX. Amarok, for instance, so far outstrips iTunes (and anything else I can find for OSX) that it's not even funny. Long story short? As to the question: "Why buy a Mac when you can have Ubuntu?" The answer is: Get the best tools for the job. It just so happens that, for many of the jobs that I do (and the way I like to do them) the best tools I've found are available only for OSX.

    3. Re:service pack by Haeleth · · Score: 5, Insightful

      What a shilly comment...
      Yes, because obviously everyone who disagrees with you must be being paid by Microsoft to do so.

      Look, let's be honest -- Vista isn't bad. It may not be as pretty as OS X, but it's got the most attractive UI Microsoft has ever produced, and on modern hardware it runs beautifully fast, is very stable, and is far more compatible with previous versions of Windows than anyone gives it credit for. (On compatibility, I just can't help remembering all the whining that went on when XP was released and didn't run all DOS programs perfectly. We've been here before, guys. We got over it.)

      Note that, far from being a Microsoft shill, I'm saying this as someone who divides most of his computing time between Ubuntu and Solaris, and has a Mac Mini perched on top of his primary desktop PC. I use Vista when I want to play games or to test programs on Windows. I'm a pragmatist who values having different tools for different jobs... and I have to say, I wish there were more of us around. This constant bickering and zealotry is nothing if not tedious.
    4. Re:service pack by wootest · · Score: 5, Insightful

      I see where you're coming from. I also guess your problem with OS X doesn't end with these specific problems. I'm not here to make or break anyone's opinion on OS X vs Gentoo based on a few specific problems (nor, actually, to cast it into a 'vs' scenario in the first place).

      But I must ask: did you try to research the "OS X" way to do it before you tried the Linux way to do it? If you didn't, why not? Because a quick search for NFS in Mac Help brought up four topics about mounting network shares; Go -> Connect to Server in Finder and entering "nfs://servername/pathname". You're now going to say that "well, then it won't connect on startup", at which point I will ask you to go into System Preferences, Accounts, select your account, go to the Login Items tab, click the + button and choose the mount.

      The reason I asked the first question was because it wasn't much harder in OS X than in UNIX variants that use fstab - if you're used to fstab, it's a minor inconvenience to push a bunch of buttons, and if you're sitting down in front of any sort of UNIX for the first time (or the second time), editing a text file to do so simply isn't going to occur to you. This doesn't make your experience with OS X any less annoying in hindsight, of course, and it doesn't mean that you had a worse time with it than with Gentoo. And it certainly doesn't mean that OS X is now on equal footing with Gentoo as a capable OS for you personally. Your investment in how Linux traditionally works and where you go to edit, install, configure and fix things is only partially applicable on OS X, for example. But it's something to think about.

      Additionally, not to cast any blame, and just to clarify, if you happened upon a Firefox extension that didn't work with your applications on Gentoo, but that worked with applications on Windows or OS X, you wouldn't blame Gentoo, you'd think that the Firefox extension was written with another platform in mind, and find an alternative. Naturally.

  2. apple doesn't care about beating windows by sentientbrendan · · Score: 5, Insightful

    and hasn't since Jobs took over. There was a period when Apple's main goal was to increase market share. When they licensed the mac os to run on third party hardware (I have a mac clone from back in the day). It almost killed apple.

    Ultimately, to take any significant chunk of the PC space, apple would need to start releasing hardware on a much smaller profit margin in order to compete with Dell, Gateway, Acer, and Lenovo. This would destroy Apple's profits and company, as the Apple clones fiasco empirically demonstrated.

    On the other hand, Apple's current strategy of releasing high profile hardware to a niche market has done phenominally well for them. They've stayed profitable, and have boosted their marketshare to an incredible high compared to historical values.

    If you'd bought apple stock and google stock at the time google went IPO, your apple stock would have outperformed your google stock by 3 or 4 times. Apple is doing *very* well and has no incentive to move away from their current low volume, high profit margin strategy. They are essentially skimming the creme of the consumer crop with their products.

  3. Platform of choice. by ThePhilips · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Silly people. Jobs was talking about this numerous times.

    Apple never targeted broad audience. True, it can sell to very broad audience, but still Apple prefer to have few but loyal customers.

    What also crossed my mind, is difference between Windows/Vista and Mac OS X. How does MacOS becomes platform of choice? Because you have to choose MacOS (as well as Apple hardware) by yourself. This establishes kind of barrier. But people who would cross the barrier are people who made their choice. The barrier works both ways: it takes some money investment to cross it (acquire hardware/software) and it takes some paining experience to come back to Wintel (which lacks all the polish, integrity and utility of Apple offering). But still, you are to make the choice by yourself.

    And now ask yourself, who of us had chosen Windows?? Right, nobody. It's the thing which came preinstalled.

    --
    All hope abandon ye who enter here.
  4. Re:world of hurt? by pokerdad · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Yes, vista has a few issues. Note: Few.

    Its not a question of how many issues there are, its a question of perception. Neither 98 nor XP were significantly different at 1 year old compared to 3 years old, but the perception of them changed massively in that time.

    In all likelyhood that pattern will repeat with Vista.

  5. Re:of course it's not by peragrin · · Score: 5, Insightful

    apple tried that it nearly bankrupted the company. Selling an OS without a monopoly is unprofitable. why else do you think that only free software OS's have been able to make in roads while every single other for profit OS company is just about gone?

    Without a monopoly no matter how gained selling just an OS will fail. Apple is worth more than Dell because they keep things locked down, and stay out of the cut throat market of cheap hardware.

    --
    i thought once I was found, but it was only a dream.
  6. Vista is a sh!t, but you will use it anyway. by hotfireball · · Score: 5, Insightful

    IMHO Vista is a sh!t. But, IMHO, you are doomed to use it anyway.

    Below is all my IMHO, folks. Be friendly, don't take me as troll. But you still doomed to see Vista, no matter how shitty Vista is. Because:
    • Microsoft Office on MS Windows is still a winner for daily business. It is tragic, it is incompatible between its versions, it is unstylish, it is horribly looking. But winner. Why? Because people is using it for so long time and Excel there is fastest among competitors and has lots of features. And Excel is stupid fucking format, which all users in business companies usually stupidly fucking using it. Either you shall do something better or give up. Look at the newest Apple thingy: Numbers from iWork '08. It just does not works like Excel does. It is different thing. People, who already working -- they won't change in their mind. They want simply continue their work and go beer at the evening.
    • Linux Desktop is just plain sucks and disappointing thing. :-( Yes, it works. Yes, it DOES works. Yes, it has that stunning XGL things (despite of it is completely useless CPU waste, yet I still love it). Yes, you can install Enlightenment and feel like inside Unreal Tournament. Yes, KMail is brilliant, Evolution is really nice, with OpenOffice.org you can do very complex usefull business ugly documents, yes you can listen the music, radio, watch the video and even eventually semi-sync your iPod (still no iTunes Store available). But all this is not a Desktop yet. The *integration of the software* is just plain sucks simply everywhere -- no matter Gnome or KDE or in between. Well, there are NO integration at all. You have dozen different pop-up dialogs for "Open file", you have extrenely stupid Nautilus with total absense of user-friendly (e.g: take pencil and paper and enumerate steps required to enable Trash Bin on desktop?) and so on... X11 desktop which is available today is that *wacky* and painfull.
    • "Grey mass" syndrome of simply users. They think in chain way, like: John use Windows, Steve use Windows, therefore I have to use Windows.

    You would say what is the proposal? Let's try to think. ;-) In my opinion:

    • Desktop integration. Take a look at OSX and simply copy the principle. The first step would be making the fucking holy standard for developing the applications, no matter this is GTK or QT or whatever you want.
    • Killer application. I have to admit that Firefox and OpenOffice are much better their predecessors (Mozilla and StarOffice). But we need something killing for DAILY boring office worker desktop usage. It should be fast, nifty, compatible and easy (to learn and to launch too).
    • Do something with those glibc/libc incompatibilities between distros. I am sure vendor wants to release a software, the binary of which could work on any Ubuntu, any RHEL, any Fedora, any SuSE, any Gentoo and any other things you can imagine. Just take it, drop it to the installer thingy and zip-zop! -- it is installed, no matter distro you have. This perfectly works for OSX and works for Windows. Well, almost perfectly. ;-) I am not talking about apt-get or yum things (infrastructure). I am talking about compatibility of them.
    • Stop ridicule and underestimate Microsoft but start respect them as a competitor and usually BETTER software writer. They generate brilliant ideas -- that's their strong side. But they implement them usually shitty and never think more practically about their ideas -- that's weakness we can exploit.

    P.S. I am MacOSX, Solaris, Linux and BSD advanced power user and developer of software for more than 10 years. Don't tell me soap stories about "nice Linux Desktop", please. Just fucking please.

  7. Re:Apple can't sell HW to everybody by Daniel+Dvorkin · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Obviously you were never in charge of an IT organization. These control freaks are attempting to keep the business network running reliably. ... The IT folks are not here to grant your technological wishes.

    Well, I have been in charge of IT (for a small company, granted) and I have to say, your post reflects a fundamental, dangerous, and regrettably common misunderstanding of what corporate IT is for. The purpose of IT is not IT; the purpose of IT is to enable users to get things done. And if users can get things done better on Macs, then by God, it's IT's job to support those Macs. And "support" does not mean willful ignorance -- the latter, unfortunately, being what a lot of shake'n'bake IT techs show any time the word "Apple" is mentioned in their presence.

    --
    The correlation between ignorance of statistics and using "correlation is not causation" as an argument is close to 1.
  8. The article is rife with errors by plsuh · · Score: 5, Insightful

    I am a former Apple employee who still maintains close ties to the company. I am also a former professional economist; I went to grad school for my Ph.D., but didn't finish my dissertation. I can state affirmatively without breaking any NDAs that The Fine Article is full of bullsh*t.

    Let's start with his sales figures. "The Mac's *worldwide* market share was 3 percent as of June 2007, according to Roger L. Kay, president of Endpoint Technologies Associates, a consulting firm in Wayland, Mass." (Emphasis mine) Worldwide market share is a poor indicator of Apple's markets. It is mostly a US-focused company and will stay that way in the near future. In the US, Apple's market share is around 5-6%, according to the most recent figures I could find. More importantly, the growth rate is more than four times higher than the industry growth rate, 32% vs. 7.2% (IDC estimates via Apple's latest quarterly report). It doesn't take long for that kind of second order effect to dominate. Comparing the market share now (after the events of the 1990's) to Apple's market share when its mainstay was the Apple II is really bad analysis. I would expect better from the author, a professor of business who presumably knows basic microeconomics.

    His figures for the share of computers in use are suspect as well. "Funny thing, though: based on the ratio of Windows and Macs actually in use, no gains can be seen for Apple. The Mac's share of personal computers has actually edged a bit lower since Vista's release in January, and the various flavors of Windows a bit higher, according to Net Applications, a firm in Aliso Viejo, Calif., that monitors the operating systems among visitors to 40,000 customer Web sites." Measuring OS usage share by measuring browser hits is a seriously flawed methodology. There are know sources of bias that lead to higher than actual market share figures for Internet Explorer on Windows, including sites that require users of other browsers to spoof the user agent header, measuring usage on sites that have ActiveX elements that drive away non-Windows users, and extra files being sent to Internet Explorer in order to work around problems in the IE rendering engine. Furthermore, the author is looking at the wrong figures and the drop that he's looking at is statistically insignificant anyway. The figures that he refers to are 4.68% (2007Q1) vs. 4.63% (2007Q2). Windows Vista was released to the general public on January 30, 2007. Thus, the base figure he should be using is 4.06% (2006Q4), which predates the release of Vista. A simple statistical test based on the Net Applications market share figures for 2004Q4 through 2007Q2 shows that a 0.05% difference is not statistically significant. Heck, any reasonably trained economist should be able to eyeball this and say that given that trend, a 0.05% difference is not statistically significant.

    As far as the whole Best Buy thing goes, the author completely misses the point behind Apple opening its own retail stores. Apple tried for years to work with CompUSA, Sears, Best Buy, and other consumer electronics retailers to sell Apple computers to the masses. Each attempt was a dismal failure, as the personnel at the retailers could not sell something as complex as Apple's equipment. They were barely able to sell TVs. The only sort-of, kind-of successful experiment in there was the store-within-a-store at CompUSA, which was done by putting Apple employees into CompUSA stores. Even that didn't work too well, as the Apple section got lost in the middle of all of the other stuff. Apple is trying again to expand it's retail reach, but I would put the odds against it. Big box retailers' emphasis on low price and minimal service is completely at odds with how to sell Apple computers.

    "Apple has not even begun to try to re-enter another domain from which it had withdrawn its Mac sales teams: large corporations." That would be news to Apple's entire Enterprise Sales team -- several hundred people. I work with them on a daily basis, even now. They've been there all alon

  9. Re:Neither can compete with the cost of Ubuntu! by celle · · Score: 5, Funny

    And windows is like a dog that has been fed pet food from china since birth. (Vet trips, limited survival)