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University of Florida Student Tasered At Political Rally
An anonymous reader writes "During a political rally at the University of Florida, an annoying student was tasered while attempting to ask Senator Kerry (D-MA) some questions regarding the 2004 election. Police are looking into whether excessive force was used to prevent the student from going over his alloted question period." There are also several YouTube videos available of the incident.
Judging by the video, Meyer isn't even interested in any answers. He just keeps rambling on and doesn't even wait for Kerry to respond. After reading the blurb, I felt sorry for him. After watching the video, I don't anymore.
You can't take the sky from me...
If the only answer to obnoxious people is to physically hurt them, then you're well into police state territory. There are certainly civilized options that have not been tried here: Kerry could have explained to the student that he won't answer his question if he keeps pontificating. Someone could have turned the microphone off. Someone could have explained to him that he's going to be fined for disorderly conduct if he keeps on going. Kerry could have asked the crowd to "boo" if they want the student to stop.
There's one thing where the student was sort of right: If Kerry holds a long speech, then this particular situation does not need to be resolved in a matter of two minutes. Political discourse has to accept some overhead, even if just to allow rabid dissenters to expose their own lunacy. Making martyrs out of them is morally and strategically wrong.
If you look at the video they first try to remove him rather peacefully by just grabbing him by the arms and moving him. Then he starts screaming and resisting so they start to push him towards the exit.
Once they're near the exit he tries to break through them towards the podium so they wrestle him to the ground. Once there he keeps trying to get loose and keeps screaming.
Then they tell him repetedly.
"Stop resisting or you will get tased"
After he keeps resisting for a while they just give up and tase him.
he was CLEARLY resisting arrest and making a scene. When I read the summary I was on his side but after the Video...
But four officers couldn't remove one college student without using a taser? Give me a fucking break!
I am not saying that police do not abuse their authority. I am not going to debate you on your previous statements, but only on the one I italicized.
This guy seemed (video is shaky) like he was putting up quite a fight.
Have you ever tried to restrain someone who really really does not want to be restrained? Have you ever been kicked, slapped, pushed shoved by someone trying to get away? Someone you cannot hit in the head? I have --and I'm only a paramedic who can only use soft restraints and wait 'till NYPD gets to the scene with handcuffs. And remember: you have to try and restrain them without hurting them or occluding their airway, which makes the task even more difficult!
This guy was resisting arrest. I'm not debating whether it was right to arrest him in the first place. The penal law here (and in most states) in New York State states that it's illegal to resist arrest even when you think that the arrest is unauthorized.
How did they manage police work before they had tasers?
I have seen scrawny seventeen year olds give six hulky NYPD ESU cops a helluva a hard time before he was restrained. And also keep in mid that it would only take one lucky kick to the face for one of these cops to lose an eye --seen it happen before.
Put on my uniform (the one where you are not allowed to carry ANY weapons) and come back to us in a couple of years, or in my case, ten
The problem with resisting arrest is that police can walk up to you and decide you smell funny so we're going to arrest you. You, being a good citizen who has done nothing wrong but skip a shower is confused, scared, and angry that s/he is being violated for an unknown reason. Of course the reaction is to struggle.
Now you've been arrested for resisting arrest. Half the time the orig. charges don't stick, are dropped, or just didn't exist to begin with. Brilliant.
You can get rich if you own a politician, but you have to be rich to buy one in the first place.
I don't mean to suggest that you won't get arrested, charged, or tasered. But if someone manages to record you getting tasered, and you were just sitting there, or completely passive, it will at least net you some points on the blogs when the video hits youtube.
And it will allow your lawyer to say things like, "And here we see a completely passive person being needlessly tasered by over-aggressive police."
Instead of this: "Well, you can see from the angle that my client wasn't actually trying to punch the cop in the face, but was just waving to some friends behind the cop."
Out of modpoints but really liked a post? 1BDkF6TtmmeZ3yqXbz9yhdYVqRYnwFoXDj
If you ever want to 'resist' then I highly suggest you just go limp, don't fight back. A limp body is still damned hard to move and makes it much easier for your lawyer to defend you in court than if you run, swing, bite, yell.
this is also considered resisting arrest and in situations officers will repeatedly tazer a limp person to torture them or pay them back for making them work. This happens a lot with protesters who make 2 or more cops carry them off, One who chained himself to a fence was tazered enough times that the cop had to get a second tazer as he emptied his. The man refused to unlock himself, the cop was too pig headed to get a set of bolt cutters and drag him off and was intent in teaching the protester a lesson.
http://www.ourmedia.org/node/55217
http://digg.com/world_news/Police_attack_PEACEFUL_Anti_War_Protestors_with_tasers_dogs_pepper_spray
http://youtube.com/watch?v=U9hL9Hy00pI
the internet is FULL of corrupt cops doing this to peaceful people because they are lazy.
Cops should be required to write a 12 page report for every time they pull the trigger on a tazer. If an offier tazers a person more than 3 times without good cause needs to be fired and blackballed from ever being in law enforcement ever again and possibly serve jail time, preferrably in with open prison population and let the prisoners know he is a cop.
as a cop you are public protectors, you are to PROTECT AND SERVE even the guy you are arresting based on your interpretation of the law. If any force is exerted you need to be punished HARD if it was inappropriate.
You do realize that cuffing a guy against his will is a lot more dangerous to everyone than a taser, right?
t
For your reading pleasure:
Taser S.O.P.:C.Authorization to use:
C.1 To control a dangerous or violent subject when deadly force does not appear to be justified and/or necessary;
C.2If attempts to subdue the subject by other conventional tactics have been, or will likely be, ineffective in the situation at hand; or
C.3If there is reasonable expectation that it will be unsafe for officers to approach within contact range of the subject, see also the Use of Force continuum,
Attachment A.. D. Prohibitions:
D.1The TASER may not be used on individuals who can be controlled by voice command or direction.
D.2The TASER may not be used as punishment or retaliation.
D.3 TASERs will not be used in conjunction with O.C. Spray.
D.4Handcuffed prisoners should not be tased without extenuating circumstances.
think before you write, it'll save me moderator points.
A slashdotter who didn't build his own computer is like a Jedi who didn't build his own lightsaber.
Tear gas, nightsticks, and rubber bullets have caused death before. In fact, people have even died after just being handcuffed. I guess we should get rid of those, too?
Your post implies that Kerry demanded that this kid be removed/silenced/tasered/etc. This is far from the truth. Watch the video again and you'll see. he was arrested just because police and/or Kerry was not confortable with his questions, way to go! No, he was arrested because the police were not comfortable with his erratic and aggressive behavior. Can you blame them?
They don't grade fathers, but if your daughter's a stripper, you fucked up. --Chris Rock
Well, you've written pretty much what I wanted to say.
In his actions, there was a justifiable use of force against him. He resisted several officers, and was making an effort to resist their instructions (leave).
When they had him on the ground, handcuffed, he was now in control. Up until this point, they could have used the taser with justified force. Now that he was on the ground, in control, he was just being loud.
I didn't hear any zapping. I didn't see the convulsions, although the video I watched (first link) did not have a clear shot of the student. He was only screaming "OW! OW! OW!".
I typical use of force would be to control the resisting person with pressure points and positive control. Every law enforcement officer is taught them. When I went through law enforcement school in Florida, it was a long, required part of the training.
Florida has an escalation of force matrix. It's really very simple. You are allowed to use one step above what the other person is using. If they are resisting, you may use hand-to-hand tactics. If they are resisting with force, you may escalate to non-lethal weapons (tazer, or pepper spray)
From what I could see, it appeared they were using pressure points and positive control, which yes, would have made him say "Ow!"
Now, if he had a weapon, and rushed the stage, they could have escalated the force to lethal force immediately. i.e., shot him before he got to the stage.
He got hurt (Ow!), but he was being an ass. He was pushing the issue ("Are you a members of Skull and Bones?!?"), and wasn't leaving the speaker a chance to answer. Someone mentioned that he was a journalism student. A good journalist needs to ask questions, and receive answers. If he was a journalist, he would likely be fired for his actions, which I hope his teacher told him.
When he was asked to leave the mic, he could have simply said "Thank you for your time.", and walked away, even if they did escort him from the building.
You are right, if he had stated his question, and waited for an answer, he may have still been asked to leave, but the speaker should have simply laughed, and said "oh no, I'm not.". Diffused situation. That's up to a good speaker to know how to control his audience, but sometimes you'll have an audience member who doesn't play well (like this student).
Serious? Seriousness is well above my pay grade.
If you RTFA, you'll see that Kerry was actually asking the cops to leave the kid alone.
What the kid was asking about was why Kerry caved on the election. He was citing evidence uncovered by Greg Palast that Florida was stolen in 2004: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greg_Palast. That was the book he was waving. People in Ohio have been convicted for election fraud: http://freepress.org/departments/display/19/2007/2379. Asking Kerry why he caved might be awkward for Kerry but it is an important question.
From what I'm reading elsewhere, the student had already raised a fuss and got Kerry to say he'd answer his questions when they said that they weren't taking any more questions due to time restraints, and then proceeded to ask two questions (which were answered) instead of just the one (like everybody else did), and was about one minute into a rant regarding freemasonry or some other crackpot conspiracy theory before security came in to get him off the microphone and let the proceeding continue. Oh, and yeah, he barged in without having (and paying for) a ticket in the first place, which was why security was there around him anyway.
This guy was creating a public disturbance. He deserved what he got, IMO. He'll also be charged and probably fined for it.
- Give a man a fire and he's warm for a day, but set him on fire and he's warm for the rest of his life.
this video clearly shows the whole incident, from beginning to end. The guy was getting out of control and wouldn't relinquish control of the microphone (plus, his questions were a little loopy). From the video, it's pretty obvious the police were going to escort him out (the first cop just places her hand on his back and tries to show him the door), but he resisted. After another 30 seconds or so of waiting on this guy the cop decides it's time to be a little more direct, and she starts to move him out.
More importantly, once they wrestle this guy to the ground (after about a minute of his resisting arrest) they tell him numerous times that if he doesn't place his hands behind his back and comply with the officers' requests that he's going to be tased. So only after the guy refuses to leave the microphone, after he resists arrest, and after he refuses to comply with directives given to him while he's on the ground do the officers taser him. From the officers' standpoint it very much looks like, absent tasing, this guy just isn't going to comply at all - even in handcuffs. I'm sorry, but what's the story here?
As a side note, it's pretty clear this guy was not in full posession of his faculties. At the end of the video, he starts ranting about how the other students need to be sure to "ask about the guy who was arrested at the Kerry rally" because he fears that he's going to be killed. He also refuses to give his name to the police (and as we all learned in Hibel v. Nevada, you may not have to show ID, but you do have to identify yourself to police officers).
Anyway, this is a non-story. Watch the video. Crazy guy resists arrest; Crazy guy gets tased.
"It is seldom that liberty of any kind is lost all at once." -David Hume
From Kerry's Blog: http://www.johnkerry.com/blog
JK: "A good healthy discussion was interrupted"
by Rick Albertson on September 18th, 2007
Senator Kerry made the following statement in response to the arrest of a student at the University of Florida:
In 37 years of public appearances, through wars, protests and highly emotional events, I have never had a dialogue end this way.
I believe I could have handled the situation without interruption, but again I do not know what warnings or other exchanges transpired between the young man and the police prior to his barging to the front of the line and their intervention.
I asked the police to allow me to answer the question and was in the process of answering him when he was taken into custody.
I was not aware that a taser was used until after I left the building. I hope that neither the student nor any of the police were injured.
I regret enormously that a good healthy discussion was interrupted.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SaiWCS10C5s
Kerry finishes a question, points to him, and says "Sir?".
During his question, the guy is interrupted, and at the end of his question, his mic is cut, and police immediately grab him and proceed to forcibly remove him from the premises. At that time, Kerry is asking the police to let the guy be while he answers his question. The police PREVENT KERRY FROM ANSWERING with their actions, and when the kid starts to fight them off THEN the crowd applauds him.
The Kid waited his turn, politely asked a question when he was invited to do so by Kerry, his question was interrupted as soon as he said something controversial, his microphone is then cut and he's immediately removed from the microphone area, and Kerry cannot answer the question because the officer's action are causing a disturbance in the proceeding.
THAT is what the videos show. That is what Kerry's official statement says happened.
You can't take the sky from me...
torture
I didn't see any torture. I saw someone who KNEW what he was doing going to great lengths to make sure he screamed like a school girl at exactly the moment needed to maximize the theatrics. A hit with a taser isn't torture.
stab gear is light weight and worn under the shirt so you can not see it
Which does nothing for your arms, groin, face, or legs. As you obviously know.
sadism
You're confusing this kid's deliberately putting himself into that scenario and launching the physical part of the conflict with someone ELSE looking for some chance to inflict pain. Sadism: BS, and you know it. Not wanting to have to deal with someone acting increasingly loopy, is more like it. And, you're still talking like they just walked up and tasered him, which you know is BS. They TOLD him they were going to, half a dozen times. All he had to do was quit being physical, problem solved.
I would have put one of the kids arms behind his back grabbed a handful of hair with the other
Just what a guy like this would be hoping for, if he could talk you into tasering him. An officer dragging a political protester by the hair is a nice second place - he'd LOVE you for that. It would also go right up on his home page.
Hell bouncers in most bars would have done a better job then those clowns did.
I've bounced, subdued, and disarmed plenty of large, drunk people. I'm not a cop, so of course no arrests personally. But I've dealt with people three times that kid's size that turned out to be big pushovers, and some very small, very scrappy people that I've watched dislocate an officer's arm, break a jaw, and nearly blind someone else while resisting being tossed out of a venue. And I HAVE watched someone get a bad guy's dislodged, hidden belt knife rammed right into their thigh, followed by some life-threatening bleeding in the middle of the fight. His vest likely would have stopped it, but... he wasn't wearing his vest on his damn leg, as you ALSO know.
Don't disappoint your bird dog. Go to the range.
Meyer was arrested (seized):
Under the circumstances here, Meyer was seized (arrested). He was both physically restrained and, under the totality of the circumstances, a reasonable innocent person would not think he was free to terminate the encounter with the police. Therefore he was arrested (seized) under both definitions.
Seizure with excessive force is unconstitutional:
One kind of Constitutionally unreasonable arrest is one with excessive force, in other words, police brutality. Therefore the next question is whether the police used excessive force in arresting Meyer.
Florida law limits the use of force by police:
Florida law allows the use of force when a person is resisting a lawful arrest. See http://www.leg.state.fl.us/Statutes/index.cfm?App_mode=Display_Statute&Search_String=&URL=Ch0776/SEC05.HTM&Title=-%3E2007-%3ECh0776-%3ESection%2005#0776.05
An arrest is only lawful when the police have probable cause to think that the suspect has violated the law. Therefore the question is whether the police reasonably believed that Meyer had committed some crime.
Police only allowed to use force for "lawful arrests:"
The crime(s) of which Meyer was accused (other than resisting arrest) are
apparently (depending on which newspaper article you read) inciting riot or obstructing an educational institution. A quick skim of those laws convinces me that it is unlikely that Meyer violated either one. See the text of these laws at: http://www.leg.state.fl.us/Statutes/index.cfm?App_mode=Display_Statute&Search_String=&URL=Ch0877/SEC13.HTM&Title=-%3E2007-%3ECh0877-%3ESection%2013#0877.13
This arrest was not lawful, so the force was illegal:
Therefore the police were not entitled to use force against Meyer because the lacked probable cause to think he had violated the law. In the absence of probable cause, the arrest is not a "lawful arrest," and therefore force is not authorized under Florida law. Therefore the police's use of force was illegal. Furthermore, Florida law expressly makes the use of force unlawful in such situations, stating that "a law enforcement officer . . . is not justified in the use of force if the arrest is lawful and known by him or her to be unlawful." See http://www.leg.state.fl.us/Statutes/index.cfm?App_mode=Display_Statute&Search_String=&URL=Ch0776/SEC051.HTM&Title=-%3E2007-%3ECh0776-%3ESection%20051#0776.051
Even if the arrest was lawful, the force was excessive:
Further, even if we assume that Meyer had violated some criminal law, such that the police were entitled to use some force in the arrest, they are only entitled to use force reasonable under the circumstances. See the applicable Florida law on the use of force. http://www.leg.state.fl.us/Statutes/index.cfm?App_mode=Display_Statute&Search_String=&URL=Ch0776/SEC05.HTM&Title=-%3E2007-%3ECh0776-%3ESection%2005#0776.05
In this case Meyer was trying to avoid arrest but he threatened nobody. That is, Meyer was just yelling and trying to get away (by flailing around, yelling, and trying to walk away and evade the police's grasp). He didn't bite, kick, have a weapon, etc.
Therefore under the circumstances, the use of the taser was excessive force. Since excessive force was used in accomplishing the seizure of Meyer, Me