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Berners-Lee Challenges 'Stupid' Male Geek Culture
ZDOne wrote with a link to a ZDNet article discussing some comments made by Tim Berners-Lee on the discrimination women face within 'stupid male geek culture'. The respected developer expressed frustration at a culture that would 'disregard the work of capable female engineers, and put others off entering the profession.' From the article: "'It's a complex problem -- we find bias against women by women. There are bits of male geek culture and engineer culture that are stupid. They should realize that they could be alienating people who are smarter and better engineers,' said Berners-Lee. Engineering research facilities that interview candidates based only on how many papers they have had published also risk adding to the problem, according to Berners-Lee, because of an apparent in-built bias against women."
So... your premise is that the pretty, stupid female community is the same as the capable, skilled female engineer community? Does the set of "male" gets subdivided into "geek" and "non-geek" but all women just go under "women"? I'm not either female or what would be called a feminist, but come on. Someone needs to work with more women, but I guess that's probably the crux of the problem.
I think his entire point is that geek culture is far from having a monopoly on stupid sexist ideas of gender roles.
Tell that to my step-daughter, after she frags you for the 450th time in Q3TA, that males are 'more likely to take risks and indulge in competition.'
You don't understand statistics, apparently. Just because your step-daugher is the exception to the rule, does not make her the rule. In general, males are more likely to take risks and indulge competition. For ever fragging step-daugher out there, there exists 100 step-daughers playing with their barbie dolls and EzBake ovens. (I know. I have a lot of cousins).
they're facing a lot more obstacles than you deal with as a pasty male geek with no fashion sense
Really? I'd contend that pasty female geeks with no fashion sense fit right in. The pastier and geekier the less resistance they experience.
Its the pretty people that face the obstacles. But those are the same obstacles us pasty geeks (male and female) with no fashion sense run into when we try to get jobs that favour the beautiful people. How often do you see a pasty geek hosting a restaurant? Anchoring a news team? Modeling swimwear?
I'm not saying its right, and I agree it should be changed, but its a bigger problem than just the 'geeks reject women'. Its that discrimination still occurs at all levels and between all segments of society.
To wit: the difference between a stupid sexist joke and a stupid geek joke is that the stupid geek joke is funny even with the genders reversed.
An engineer, who has spent the evening out, is caught by his wife trying to sneak into his house early the next morning. Saying that he has something to confess, he tells of meeting a woman in a bar, drinking too much and winding up going home with her.
"You shit," his wife screams, "you've been working late in the lab again!"
Anyone who thinks that's a "sexist" joke isn't a good engineer, because they've never experienced a problem so engrossing that they'll spend all night trying to solve it. An engineer (well, one lucky enough to get the opportunity!) might feel guilty about cheating on his/her spouse... but never about spending a night at the lab!
I think you are highlighting an important distinction.
The discussion that needs to be had is not "Why aren't women as good at science, math, and technology as men are?", which is based on the faulty assumption that men and women are vastly different in capability, but rather "Why aren't women as interested in science, math, and technology as men are?".
A lot of arrogant male geeks will knee-jerk respond "because they're not as good at it!", but that really cuts to the heart of the bad argument here. There are plenty of people who pile into fields that they're not good at, because they want to be in that industry. People have to suffer all sorts of idiots every day in the industries in which they work. People don't have to be good at something to be attracted to it.
Why is it that women aren't interested in being in IT? (Male hostility is clearly a factor as every slashdot thread on sexism proves).
There are lives at stake here!
Every women I've ever met is incredibly sexist. They'll tell you all the terrible stereotypes they hold about men in a heartbeat. In fact, it's THEIR terrible sexist stereotypes that are to blame for the lack of women in trades and engineering.
It's been a long time.