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The Gradual Public Awareness of the Might of Algorithms

Soylent Mauve writes "The trend toward data- and algorithm-driven tuning of business operations has gotten a lot of attention recently — check out the recent articles in the New York Times and the Economist. It looks like computer scientists, especially those with machine learning training, are getting their day in the sun. From the NYT piece: 'It was the Internet that stripped the word of its innocence. Algorithms, as closely guarded as state secrets, buy and sell stocks and mortgage-backed securities, sometimes with a dispassionate zeal that crashes markets. Algorithms promise to find the news that fits you, and even your perfect mate. You can't visit Amazon without being confronted with a list of books and other products that the Great Algoritmi recommends. Its intuitions, of course, are just calculations -- given enough time they could be carried out with stones. But when so much data is processed so rapidly, the effect is oracular and almost opaque.'"

32 of 169 comments (clear)

  1. Oracular, opaque... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

    and often hilarious or silly. People already trust computers too much.

    1. Re:Oracular, opaque... by Paradigm_Complex · · Score: 2, Funny

      I checked sources online, you're wrong according too... wait, crap.

      --
      "A witty saying proves nothing." - Voltaire
    2. Re:Oracular, opaque... by morgan_greywolf · · Score: 3, Funny

      Absolutely. I belong to several Yahoo and Google Groups geared at the neopagan crowd, and because the groups are categorized as 'religious' groups, the advertising always contains advertisements for 'End Times' books and appeals to join the United Methodist Church, etc. Then again, maybe this the algorithms are doing just what they're supposed to do ... :)

    3. Re:Oracular, opaque... by TheRaven64 · · Score: 4, Funny

      I checked sources online, you're wrong according too... Knuth? Please note, the parent post may contain errors. I have only proved it correct, not actually read it.
      --
      I am TheRaven on Soylent News
    4. Re:Oracular, opaque... by mahmud · · Score: 4, Insightful

      The day the computers can read what we're looking at and know us well enough to offer an even remotely successful guess at what comes next will be the day the computer decides it doesn't need us anymore. And I think we all know what happens when the computers decide they don't need us anymore. No.

      Don't apply your intuition concerning human beings to other intelligent systems. A true AI may or may not decide it doesn't need us, depending on how it's programmed.

      You ignore the fact that stand-alone sentience has little to do with our evolution-dictated habits (e.g. getting rid of competing group/species/whatever). You assume that all the evolution-dictated behaviour and thinking patterns embedded in human brain will somehow automagically manifest themselves in a true strong-AI machine, a view with which I disagree.
  2. Slightly O.T. by gardyloo · · Score: 4, Informative

    I just (a few minutes ago) found this free PDF book about algorithms (written for the undergrad-level student). It's pretty good: http://beust.com/algorithms.pdf

    1. Re:Slightly O.T. by mcpkaaos · · Score: 3, Funny

      When I opened that PDF, my Windows calculator automatically launched, performed all of the calculations, and logged the results to notepad. Amazing!

      --
      It goes from God, to Jerry, to me.
  3. Said one computer scientist by Nicholas+Bishop · · Score: 5, Funny

    Said one computer scientist getting his day in the sun:

    "I'm melting, I'm melting!"

  4. This Just In by the+eric+conspiracy · · Score: 4, Funny

    Math is a really really powerful tool.

    1. Re:This Just In by the+eric+conspiracy · · Score: 2, Funny


      there American, fixed it for you.

      This is an American site, you silly little British girlie - man.

    2. Re:This Just In by GuyMannDude · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Math is a really really powerful tool.

      While that may be obvious for slashdot readers, it's news to the general public. I remember an endless number of conversations, even as recent as a few years ago, in which people would ask "Can you do anything with that degree other than teach?" upon learning that I was a mathematician. I think it's great that the public is starting to realize that math makes the world go around. God forbid, the gradual public awareness of the power of math might even lead to kids wanting to pay attention in class. While there are drawbacks to this (e.g., the deluge of college kids taking business-oriented mathematics programs with the expectation of a six-figure salary once they graduate), I'm generally happy to see math and computer science get their days in the sun.

      GMD

  5. Boy They're Slow by PingPongBoy · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Whereas algorithms are instantly aware of their own prowess.

    Is management starting to wonder (again) whether a computer can really do a better job making the important decisions? But can it yet? There is so much data that needs to be acquired in order to return a meaningful answer.

    Some of the most powerful organizations are probably making deals to combine as many databases as possible. Interesting to see (if they would let us see) if that will give them the answers they're looking for. As data acquisition becomes more accurate and less expensive, there will be less privacy but more creative computer output, a trade-off in the value of personal information leading to the possible marginalization of humanity.

    --
    Know your pads. One time pad: good for cryptography. Two timing pad: where to take your mistress.
    1. Re:Boy They're Slow by c_sd_m · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Is management starting to wonder (again) whether a computer can really do a better job making the important decisions? But can it yet? There is so much data that needs to be acquired in order to return a meaningful answer.

      If they're foolish, sure they hope computers can make better decisions. If they aren't complete fools they realize that computers can provide analytical support for decisions. For example, algorithms can evaluate more potential alternatives, generate potentially good alternatives that they haven't thought of, or make predictions. In most cases, algorithms are just formalizing analysis processes. The supposition is that being able to consider more data leads to better decisions. There are cases where it works really well already, e.g., managing lines at theme parks, basic scheduling, etc (see http://www.scienceofbetter.org/). Algorithms are used extensively in portfolio selection.

      Data acquisition isn't a bit deal but getting the data into the right format for the algorithm still is though there's progress being made there. The really hard parts are understanding the problem enough to formalize the process and being able to properly interpret the results. Some problems are much easier to formalize than others (portfolio expected value and risk, production rates and material requirements), some can only be done with surrogate measures at this point (water scarcity, consensus and voting, anything with 'value'), and some we may never be able to fully formalize in an acceptable way (human behaviour). Letting the algorithms take care of the easy stuff is often efficient and work is being done to increase the set of 'easy stuff'.

  6. The joy of algorithms by drgonzo59 · · Score: 4, Interesting
    Yes, finally, the algorithms are making a comeback. Up until now we just randomly banged on our keyboards until something came out. Now we have algorithms -- a plan that we follow step by step. Wow.


    But seriously, a food recipe is an algorithm for all general purposes. All these people are saying is that the machine learning algorithms and match peoples' personalities and buy stock are too complicated for the average Joe Programmer Wannabe and look more or less like a black box. (which if they employ neural networks, instead of say SVN, they are actually black boxes even for the author who wrote it...).

    1. Re:The joy of algorithms by Stochastism · · Score: 3, Informative

      Did you mean SVM? I think the quadratic programming optimizer used for SVM training would count as a black-box, even to most of the SVM crowd ;) And don't get me started on Gaussian Processes.

      Machine learning is supposed to *look* like magic. It's supposed to behave like a black box with just one or two knobs on it. When -- and this is unfortunatley almost always -- it doesn't, then it's not the machine learing doing the work, it's the programmer. In this case I can forgive Joe Wannabe for tearing his hair out over the complexity. The problem with machine learning is that the "no free lunch" theorem says that there is essentially no one-size-fits all black box. The programmer must have some understanding of why they are using that particular black box.

  7. Heuristics are not the same as algorithms by pedantic+bore · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Sheesh! Someone needs to spend some time with a dictionary.

    If only we could have a gradual (or sudden) awareness of the power of heuristics and modeling ...

    --
    Am I part of the core demographic for Swedish Fish?
  8. Re:State Secrets? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Funny

    Don't worry, Bush will be gone soon, and then everything will be fine.

  9. Heuristics ARE algorithms by 12357bd · · Score: 2, Informative

    maybe not as beautiful as 'clasic' ones, but algorithms indeed. Something like shapes, you know, 'clasic' algorithms (ie: sort) are somewhat like circles (simple formulaes) but real objects (ie: leafs) are extremely complex formulaes only approximated by fractals and with a lot of 'heuristics' in it.

    --
    What's in a sig?
    1. Re:Heuristics ARE algorithms by Chmcginn · · Score: 3, Insightful
      GP: "Heuristics are not the same as algorithms"

      P: "Heuristics ARE algorithms"

      Both of these statements can be true. (Depending on the exact meaning of the GP.) For instance:

      Humans are not the same as animals.

      Humans are animals.

      A more exact statement than either is that heuristics are a subset of algorithms, as humans are a subset of animals.

      --
      Have you been touched by his noodly appendage?
    2. Re:Heuristics ARE algorithms by pedantic+bore · · Score: 5, Interesting

      That's an elegant metaphor, but someone has misled you.

      An algorithm is a precise specification of a process whose outcome is defined by the initial conditions. To cite your example, quicksort is an algorithm -- the outcome of the sorting process is well defined, given the inputs.

      But typical implementations of quicksort use a heuristic to choose the pivot element -- median of three, media of five, middle element, etc. These are heuristics because their goal is to choose the median value, but they can't make any guarantee that it will find the median. They can't even guarantee that they will find a good value. In fact, they generally don't even consider all of their inputs! They could choose bad values every time... but on average they don't, and quicksort is fast.

      Another way of looking at it is that if an algorithm is correct, it will produce a correct answer for all valid inputs. A heuristic might produce incorrect answers for valid inputs, but it's correct often enough so that it might still be worth using -- especially if a correct algorithm is not known.

      You may point out that randomized algorithms have a similar property -- but the difference is that with randomized algorithms the probability of error can be made arbitrarily small. With heuristics, there's no telling.

      --
      Am I part of the core demographic for Swedish Fish?
  10. The Importance of a CS Degree by Enonu · · Score: 4, Insightful

    This is one of the reason why getting a CS degree is important, despite what the ignorant masses say in the IT industry. Sure writing lame CRUD applications will satisfy your average customer's needs, but sophisticated algorithms are what provide value beyond a simple shopping cart.

    If you're still entrenched in the thought that a CS degree "isn't needed for what I do," then let me propose a somewhat common problem. Suppose your client wants the built in reporting in your web application to minimize the amount of noise introduced by users who forget their password and create a new account rather than resetting it. It's up to you to write code to detect these duplicate accounts. How do you begin doing this beyond simple string comparisons?

    1. Re:The Importance of a CS Degree by neonfreon · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Why would anyone ever do this? "Excessive noise"? Oh, you mean more orders? Last time I checked, more entries in the database never hurt anyone (not like every user is going to create duplicate accounts to the point where you're running out of resources, user records are tiny anyhow). Writing some 'intelligent' algorithm to detect duplicate accounts will invariably lead to marking legitimately separate user's accounts as duplicates and eliminating business.

      Ahh, but experience matters too..

    2. Re:The Importance of a CS Degree by CodeBuster · · Score: 3, Insightful

      How do you begin doing this beyond simple string comparisons?

      It is also useful to realize that just because one can does not mean that one should, especially when the cost of an error is high. There is a tendency, sometimes, among the computer scientists towards too much cleverness, particularly in algorithms, when something much simpler and more reliable would have been better. I cannot tell you how many times bad assumptions about automated processes and the algorithms which control them have lead to inappropriate behavior and blown user expectations under the worst possible conditions. The real world is not the same as the CS labs in your algorithms course and the simpler solution often has much to recommend itself over the efficient and elegant, but hopelessly complex and slightly unreliable algorithm that one learns in the AI courses during their university CS education.

      For example, suppose that your online banking application assumes that you really do want that regular payment upon receipt to go through automatically, because that is how it has happened before, when in fact you, the user, know that a one time payment for an unrelated expense, which has not yet been posted but will be shortly, must be made first. The automated agent makes the deduction for the regular payment automatically while the one time payment, which goes through several days later, is unexpected and overdraws the account. The user curses the system for being too "clever" instead of just carrying out his instructions. Cancel or allow?

  11. No, I think you were right the first time. by khasim · · Score: 2, Interesting

    But when so much data is processed so rapidly, the effect is oracular and almost opaque.

    As you've demonstrated, the "oracular" part is badly mistaken.

    Amazon almost NEVER guesses something I'd buy.

    If I buy a new DVD, I am instantly bombarded with ads for EVERY new DVD. I buy the new Terry Pratchett book and I'm bombarded with EVERY book by him or co-authored by him or licensed by him or whatever. I don't want derivatives.

    I picked up the "V" comic book (graphic novel) and now I'm bombarded with every comic book they have.

    As relates to your post, you can't be the only techo neo-pagan out there. But they just cannot fit you to that group, can they? Although it should be very, very easy to do so.
    1. Re:No, I think you were right the first time. by Chmcginn · · Score: 4, Informative

      I buy the new Terry Pratchett book and I'm bombarded with EVERY book by him or co-authored by him or licensed by him or whatever. I don't want derivatives.

      My favorite is getting Amazon recommendations for books I've already bought... through Amazon.

      I often find myself saying "Ah, yes, I just bought the hardcover version of that book last year, now I should go out and get the paperback, the second edition with a few minor spelling corrections, etc, etc."

      Or something.

      --
      Have you been touched by his noodly appendage?
  12. Software Patent Propaganda. by Erris · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Don't get caught up in the hype here. Algorithms are nothing special on their own. These articles are trying to make them look important, like inventions or physical objects, to further pump up the notion of software patents. It's not algorithms that are evil in GWB's great internet filters, it's the machinery that's been built on top of an otherwise dumb network and free internet that's evil.

    Without algorithms, there can be no computing but there's nothing really special about any one in particular. Algorithms are just instructions, and there are many ways of achieving the same result. Algorithms can stand alone or be combined into programs that do things users want. The net result is just another set of instructions that can be considered a larger algorithm. Without modern computing equipment, most of these instructions are useless. Like the article say, "try doing this at home." No problem, if you have a computer but a real pain if you only have pen and paper. Medical imaging devices take advantage of mathematics that was little more than a curiosity when it was first published in 1917. The inventors of the device reinvented the math without knowing it some forty years later but it was not until the 1980s that the devices became practical due to the lower cost of computing.

    This article is pumping up the value and utility of business methods. Common sense is a valuable thing, but it's not always an invention and business methods never are.

    --
    DMCA, Hollings, Palladium. What might have sounded like paranoia is now common sense.
    1. Re:Software Patent Propaganda. by ShakaZ · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Without algorithms, there can be no computing but there's nothing really special about any one in particular. Algorithms are just instructions, and there are many ways of achieving the same result. There are indeed many ways of achieving the same results. However some algorithms are much more efficient than others and when a large program is made up of many of those optimised algorithms there will be a huge speed improvement over other implementations.
      This is especially important in resource-hungry applications, scientific calculation or on systems with constrained resources such as embedded systems.

      Saying there's nothing special about any algorithm is simply dumb.
  13. Re:Looks like by CheeseTroll · · Score: 3, Funny

    Drums that raise our awareness of global warming.

    --
    A post a day keeps productivity at bay.
  14. An underclass? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic.
            Arthur C. Clarke, "Profiles of The Future", 1961 (Clarke's third law)

    just how close are we to having this statement be 'real' to a large majority of people on this planet? discounting any second or third world countries, how many people in first world countries would consider the 'oracular' nature of an algorithm to be 'magical'?
    the education system spread throughout the world is creating an over and under society incapable of distinguishing high technology from magical sources. yep, this can only bode well for the future of humanity.

    'i pray to you lord skynet, pls water my crops on the back 40!!!11 here is a sacrifice to your computations.....'

  15. Idiotic by sirdisc · · Score: 2, Funny

    This is completely idiotic. All logic works based on algorithms, whether it's in your head or in a computer. Only a monkey or someone with an agenda would write such article. "The Gradual Public Awareness of the Might of Algorithms" eh???????????????????

  16. Heuristics are, indeed, algorithms. by rjh · · Score: 2, Informative

    I'm a graduate student in CS right now. One of the things I'm researching is stochastic approximation heuristics. Without any argument, these are algorithms. They have to be algorithms, or else the Church-Turing Thesis doesn't apply and we wouldn't be able to have computers do them at all.

    An algorithm is, broadly speaking, a terminating sequence of deterministic steps that effectively derives outputs from provided inputs. But don't believe me--after all, I'm just a random guy on Slashdot. But maybe Cormen, Leiserson, Rivest and Stein's Introduction to Algorithms should be believed:

    Informally, an algorithm is any well-defined computational procedure that takes some value, or set of values, as input and produces some value, or set of values, as output.

    Don Knuth has an equivalent definition of algorithm in The Art of Computer Programming. He makes explicit a couple of details which are implicit in the CLRS definition, but other than that they're interchangeable. Knuth talks about the effectiveness of algorithms, in that an algorithm must uphold the promises the programmer makes about it.

    So now that we've got a decent definition of "algorithm", one that's approved by five of the brightest lights in computer science, let's look at simulated annealing. This is a stochastic (random) heuristic approximation process. You say it's not an algorithm, because sometimes it'll give barkingly wrong answers. I say it is. So let's look at our definition of algorithm, and see whether it is or not.

    It's well-defined, in that every step of the process has mathematical clarity and precision. It's deterministic, in that if I feed it the exact same inputs (including initializing the pseudorandom number generator to the same seed value), I get the exact same outputs. It will always terminate, thanks to a counter that limits the annealing process to a couple of million operations. And finally, it is effective, in that it upholds the promises I, the programmer, make about the outputs.

    According to your reasoning, it fails on the effectiveness criteria. It's not an algorithm because it doesn't solve NP-COMPLETE problems, it simply approximates them. But that's a straw man argument: I never claimed it solved NP-COMPLETE problems, therefore the effectiveness of the algorithm is not determined by whether it solves NP-COMPLETE problems.

  17. Could be worse... by Chmcginn · · Score: 2, Funny

    "People that bought this random hentai also bought dirty underwear."

    --
    Have you been touched by his noodly appendage?