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Newton II - Does The Rumor Have Legs This Time?
Ian Lamont writes "Mike Elgan at ComputerWorld has an interesting analysis of the small computing market, and predicts that the market is primed to take off. He admits that small computers have been tried before and failed ('Every single UMPC device that has been shipped or announced suffers from lousy usability, high prices, poor performance, ill-conceived user interfaces, or any combination of the above') but he points to several recent products — and a rumor — that he says changes the playing field and paves the way for the first-ever successful small computer, from Apple. The products are the iPhone and the iPod touch. The rumor: Apple Insider has sources who claim that Apple is actually working on a 'modern day Newton' to be released in the first half of 2008. The device will supposedly have a version of Mac OS X Leopard and a touch interface, according to Apple Insider. A lot of people just aren't buying it. They point to the fact that the first Newton eventually flopped. A few note that similar Newton II rumors have been trotted out in years past, as well as a high-profile hoax. Nothing ever came of them." Would you buy if the Newton came back?
It better fix the Beat up Martin = eat up Martha handwriting recognition bug.
Would you buy if the Newton came back?
It depends on how Apple begins to treat the iPhone hacks going around. If they stop the cat and mouse game to please the AT&T gods with disabling and "bricking" the altered iPhones, then maybe I would consider it. Hell, I was considering an iPhone until this whole bricking deal came to be.
I'm sorry but Steve Jobs wouldn't be where he was today if it weren't for a rabid fan base and he's quickly killing off the fan base by linking up with the douchebags of the world and killing off those that love Apple's devices the most -- true fans.
The Newton is already back, it's called the iPhone
#!/
1) It was released too early (needed another 3-4 months shaking out before hitting the shelves).
2) Synchronizing data was a painful process involving lots of cable manipulation, app-launching, etc. (the Palm had a dock: very easy)
3) Too expensive (by about $500)
4) Too large (Palm got it right)
5) NewtonScript was nice, but too weird. A C++ dev kit would have helped a lot (but was politically impractical in the Newton group)
6) Apple management wanted royalties on applications (which was just absolute bugf*ck insanity)
[Yeah, I worked on it.]
Any sufficiently advanced technology is insufficiently documented.
So your post boils down to a 'No'?
I agree that the bricking of iPhones was a piss poor move. Though I suppose if they did release a Newton II that it would likely do everything that people wanted to hack their iPhones to do but lack the cell phone capability.
After all the technology for a Newton II and iPhone are not that unrelated.
09F911029D74E35BD84156C5635688C0
+2 Troll is Slashdot's way of saying groupthink is confused
Isn't the iPhone a Newton, essentially? And I know a lot of Slashdotters are going to say "no you idiot it's a phone and doesn't have handwriting recognition and X and Y and Z!" but come on people that's not what I mean. The iPhone is a little, handheld computer, yes? It also has voice-communication built in, which we call a phone. So it doesn't have handwriting recognition. That might actually be a good thing! Actually maybe it is a lot harder to make apps for the iPhone? (I don't know.)
I would indeed buy it. I still use a MessagePad 2100 that's far more reliable and longer-lived that the iPaq I purchased to replace it - even if, yes, the iPaq had more capabilities.
I'd love to have the best of both worlds - reliability, great handwriting recognitiion (yes the last Newtons had that), with a color screen, WiFi, and hackability.
I don't believe the rumors, though.
If Windows thrives on "Developers Developers Developers" then Apple needs "Rumors Rumors Rumors".
Hail Eris, full of mischief...
E pluribus sanguinem
for the iPhone. Perhaps they're holding off for a iNewton? I'd friggin buy an OS X PDA in a second, just for safari, and the flexibility of a UNIX subsystem would just be extra goodies.
Why do people think Apple has a choice in the matter? Apple most likely has a contractual obligation to ATT requiring due diligence in the case that someone finds a workaround to their exclusive contract.
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I have wondered for a long time if the Newton would resurface. I don't think it was a bad product idea, I just think it arrived before its time. Today it might succeed for 2 reasons:
1) Much greater technology penetration of main stream markets. (Not just for nerds anymore. Or perhaps "its hip to be square.")
2) CPU speeds are fast enough today to allow for a more advanced GUI in a portable device.
Think Deeply.
Best handwriting recognition of any device still, hands down. Though right now its more of a franken-newton, being cobbled together of as many new parts as possible. The only original part is now the motherboard, which is from a newton I salvaged in a yardsale a long time ago. And if I could clone it, I would in a heartbeat.
Though I am tempted on trying to compile the Einstein emulator on my iPhone, and using one of the two styluses designed for the iPhone that are being produced. But its not just the fantastic handwriting recognition that brings me back to it every year; its the large screen. The Newton was never meant to be a PDA, as it was made before that term was even cobbled together. It was originally developed to try and supplant the current buisness laptop. Longer battery life, more portable, and you can write, fax, etc with it. If you realize this, and that it was not a device built for comically big pockets, then it hit the mark perfectly.
How can you tell it hit the mark? Alright, users of Palm 3's, rase your hand. (*glances around*)
Psion 7 out there? (*glances around, sees a couple hiding in the closet*).
It hit the mark because we still talk about it. We still crave for it to come back. It might of even been around today if the spin-off company making them was not bought back by Apple shortly before Jobs got back, which he axed with childlike glee becuase it did not fit into his picture of a "user experience" device.
3 degrees of separation from Vladimir Putin
If they decide to enter the ultra-portable computer market ala OQO and others, it will not - ever - be called "Newton". No-way, nada, snowball in hell has a better chance.
Why?
Oh - I don't know - apart from the fact that that project was the darling of the very man WHO HELPED OUSTER JOBS IN 1985. But as we all know - Steve Jobs wouldn't dare knee-jerk product decision based on grudges or personal feelings. Naw. Never. Pay it no mind.
Newton's back - ayep...
Then question is WHY would I buy it? Hell, I still have a mobile phone from 2002 and I won't change it. I don't have an ipod and don't want one. I don't even THINK about buying an iPhoney. I really don't need those things, so why would I need a newton? Because Apple has designed it?
Because I use a modern mobile device and do a lot of mo-photoblogging and enjoy having access to the web/AIM wherever I am. I don't care what YOU need, it's what I want.
The Lisa II.
If they took the technology in the iPhone and put it into a form factor that was more like a Day Planner than a Phone, then you would have a Truly Awesome companion device. Make it cover most of the functions of the iPhone, except for the phone part, and have it sync with the phone over Bluetooth. Give it WiFi and the ability to use a stylus -- but only in a pinch for lots of data entry or sketching. You'd want to build on the multi-touch goodness. Heck, with multi-touch my iPhone is already a better eBook for PDFs than my Sony Reader, and it's not even hacked! (I just put them on my personal website and view them in Safari. I put them in their own tab, and they stay there for a couple of hours without my having to download them again. Multi-touch rocks for reading stuff.)
There are situations where you wouldn't want your phone *and* a planner, but there are plenty of situations at work where you would find both very useful, but it would be cumbersome to drag a full-blown laptop along. In a larger form factor, the apps already on the iPhone would really rock. The iPhone would still be vital because of its form factor. You could still enter contact data and look at your agenda in a pinch. But for heavy-duty work, the additional screen real estate would be a big win.
First off, he thinks the UMPC problem is basically interface.
It isn't. UMPCs suffer because they're way too much computer for a portable device, and cost way too much. Let's face it, most people don't need desktop power shrunk to a 7 inch screen; we could use it, but only if it didn't cost more. The problem is that UMPCs are cool, but they cost considerably more than the cheapest laptop.
He also mentions Nokia's upcoming tablet, then dismisses it out-of-hand by pointing to the company's dispersion. Hold on. That's about the only reason that doesn't make sense. This product will be Nokia's third generation entry into the field, after the n770 and the n800. You can argue that "Nokia hasn't gotten it right yet, and they're not this time"; you can claim that "They won't be able to get the retail channels for their 'non-cellphone cellophone'"; you can claim that they still haven't put a basic software suite together -- all those would be questionable, but valid responses. But "Nokia has too many pots in the fire?" Uh, they have _one_ pot in the fire, and it happens to use a lot of the same parts as their cellphone mobile devices (reducing their cost of entry into the market).
Finally, he says the "Newton II" will be a winner if it's under $1000. Dude, we're talking about mobile devices here. Gadget freaks, especially those who get their toys for free, love all the cool stuff that comes with the high price tag. What Apple and Nokia are showing is that you don't need a $1000 device to give fundamental internet access.
Do the math this way: take a $400 internet tablet, and a $600 desktop computer. What are the limitations going to be using these two on a daily basis vs. what a $1000 table can do? Now remember that most of your target market already has a computer, and one better than $600. The real killer in this field is going to be cheap and with a good interface, not $999 and the apple brand. That way lies the Newton I
Exactly; Newton didn't "eventually flop". From what I've read, it flopped on Day 1, but then became useable and a decent product. However, the Newton was never able to overcome the baggage of all that initial bad press. Building a good product isn't enough, you've also got to market it right.
I think this position misses the premise (which I happen not to believe).
The only reason the iPhone and iPod touch aren't the next generation Newton is that they aren't sold, supported, or configured as platforms for running third party software. If a "Next Generation Newton" was locked down, it wouldn't be a "Newton", it would be an iPod.
The whole thing boils down to money. Apple tried selling PDAs, and they didn't make a ton of money. By making the iPhone not a PDA, they not only get a nice chunk of rental revenue from AT&T, they avoid playing a game that they tried before and lost.
However, timing is important in business. Companies are getting out of the PDA business, which means it is time for a contrarian business to consider getting in. The big question with Apple is, what are they going to do to get people to buy more of their stuff? After a few more generations of iPhone and iPod, it's bound to become a harder sell. So a lateral move into a different product category is plausible, although it isn't inevitable they'll go back into the PDA business.
Maybe something that look a lot like the PDA business though. If I was smart enough to know what that might be, I'd be rich.
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Just like the iPhone, until Steve unwrapped it one day.
Windows 2000 - from the guys who brought us edlin
A PDA derivative of the iPhone could essentially be the "Newton II". Here is why:
1. The hardware, OS, and interface are pretty mature (most current PDAs are lacking in one of those dept's)
2. It would explain why Apple is not allowing 3rd party apps for the iPhone (it would be a "Newton II" exclusive) and why they have painstakingly removed most PDA "features" from the Touch.
3. Being based on OS X, it would be trivial developing new applications for the "Newton II".
I can very close to buying a Touch but it is still crippled. No BT, no calendar edit, no mic, etc.
Here is what I want:
No bigger than the iPhone
Bluetooth
HWR
SD Slot
WiFi
Java
Microphone
32GB Flash
8 Hr Battery
"I say we take off, nuke the site from orbit. It's the only way to be sure."
I just bought an iPod touch. And it's pretty much the greatest gadget I've ever owned. I love it.
I think a lot of what makes it great, though, is that the interface for Safari is heavily tweaked for web surfing. It's really easy to pan and scan around, and you can pinch and expand to zoom in and out. One of the most useful features is the ability to tap on a section of a web page and have it adjust the zoom intelligently to frame the text or photo you're dealing with. And then there's that turning the device on its side and having the screen roll with you thing.
The result of all of this is that you can surf really well on a very small device. I wouldn't have thought a full browser could be so usable on such a small device, but they did it, and it's great.
The other apps, though, aren't nearly as usable. The music player has cover flow, which is really quick and useful -- I didn't think it would be before I bought the touch, but it is. It's not that they're bad. It's just that all of that insanely great UI stuff is tweaked specifically for web browsing. The stuff that it does is aimed at that problem, and a lot of times the features aren't even implemented in other apps.
The point is that what they've done is different from making a new kind of widget set for portable devices. On a normal desktop system, and on a normal PDA, you have a widget set that lets apps run in GUIs and behave in standard ways. This has very specific gui tweaks for a key app, safari.
I think the philosophical change of the touch (and the iPhone, obviously) is that the designers seem to be working from the premise that usable UI on such a small device is challenging enough that you have to tweak things very specifically for the app of the moment, and not just use something more general like MFC.
So Safari is tweaked out brilliantly, and it's flat out amazing. The music player is ok, it's certainly functional, but it's not so amazing. It's not "I can't believe how cool this is" great.
I kind of wish I had my old iPod video interface back, honestly. Or I wish I could zoom in and out, to change the size of the type on my podcasts, because sometimes long titles are hard to read.
So the question is, how are you going to make a really great PDA? Do you have to have genius UI designers working on every app? I mean, how are you going to do IM on these things? How do you get around that "entering text sucks" barrier? And there's going to be some usability problem like that popping up over and over again in app after app.
(I think this is part of why they want to keep these things locked down -- I believe that Jobs really hates the idea of people running ugly unusable apps on his devices.)
I mean, they could make a PDA, and they could use the tech they already have, and it would probably be just another PDA with a standard general interface, and an insanely great web browser. And that would be cool. But I think they're more ambitious than that.
What's hard to do is to control the whole user experience to the level Apple and Steve Jobs wants to. I think this is why the iPhone didn't support 3rd party apps at first. It's one thing if one of your programs fails on your laptop/desktop. It's another when your're walking around and your phone breaks. With something like a data tablet, there would be more leeway.
I've owned multiple Palm devices, and I now own the iPhone. Palms were nice for keeping info, but ultimately not worth the trouble of lugging and extra device around. If some sort of Apple data tablet succeeds, then it will have to have functions not covered by the iPhone. You will be able to do the iPhone functions with more screen real estate and comfort, but there will be additional functions.
Something that acted like a 21st century Newton and also acted as a graphics tablet would rock. Such a device would also be a kick-ass eBook reader. Doctors would love the thing. (My ex, when she was in med school, had a Sony made PalmOS device pretty much to just to carry around pharmacological reference material. Practically everyone in med school had a PDA for that purpose.)
The tech in the iPhone has a lot of potential if you put it in something the size of a day planner.
It's bluster so ATT doesn't take them to court. Do you think Apple cares if DRM was broken in Itunes? The only reason it was there was to appease the record companies.
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I almost bought an iPod Touch. I didn't care if it played music or not; that's sort of an "icing on the cake" thing. The movie thing is nice, too, but not huge. But it looked to be a UMPC that I could like. That was until the calendar disabling. Then you couldn't use it as a disk. Oh, and the screen is really too small. I've said (here and several other places) many times before that what I want is something the size of a Steno pad (in all three dimensions) that has a minimum of buttons and no hardware keyboard. Yeah, I want a "PADD" from Star Trek: TNG. I think most business people would use one for their primary computer, leaving their "desktop" machine to gather dust.
The Spoon
Updated 6/28/2011
I worked on some of the first third party software, released on Newton's day one. It was a very, very good and solid product to use and develop for. By the last model, there was only one thing still wrong with it as a device - the form factor. It was a bit too big and heavy for a pocket. But that would have been very quickly addressed. Politics alone killed the Newton. Now, I look forward to a true successor, the tablet TouchMac. It WILL happen.
Mike from www.myallo.com/blog
I think this Newton rumour is more likely because Apple is being aggressive at keeping third party apps off the iPhone and particularly the iPod Touch. Wouldn't want those two interfering with the launch of a real PDA, would we?
Jobs is famous for not allowing a product to see the light of day until it meets his standards. PDAs with styluses really do suck, but everybody seems to love the idea of a multitouch PDA.
I don't think it's going to be the equivalent of a tablet PC though. No keyboard is a big drawback there. In the future, when multitouch matures a bit, maybe Apple will consider a tablet with an onscreen keyboard though.
Not just bad press, bad user experiences.
In my opinion, the Newton deserved to die. At one point my family had one and it was the clunkiest most anemic device we'd ever used.
A year later my father got a Palm Professional - It kicked the Newton's ass handily, and was a fraction of the price of the model of Newton we had (I forget which one.)
As to Newton II - As I see it, iPhone = Newton II.
retrorocket.o not found, launch anyway?
IMO, the Newton was killed just when the market and technology was ready for it. The Palm Pilot just hit the market and was taking off. Now, we have Apple with the iPhone they need to restrict to make telco's happy but they also have this really nicely patented and usable UI and packaging... They could rip out the telco chips, throw in a video driver chip and make an 3rd party open device for the Nokia N770/N800 space. With VOIP and wireless, email, PIM, and a VGA connector for presentations it would make a splash at any office meeting.
Sounds cool to me but I would rather see a Linux implementation if they could get all the nice gesture stuff working smoothly as Apple does. It is marketing which killed of the PDA market more than the phone market. I don't see even halt the number of smartphone users around as I used to see using PDA's(Palm, Handspring, Sony, and even iPaqs). When the marketing stopped and it didn't seem cool anymore, people slowly left the devices in the desk and doing that for just one month can kill the battery for good. Non replaceable batteries also fixed the life expectancy and probably lead to many EOL scenarios.
Ive me a fully open iPhonePDA and a keychain telco wireless phone module with Bluetooth support and it'll be cool once again to have a PDA. IMO.
LoB
"Anyone who stands out in the middle of a road looks like roadkill to me." --Linus
Q: How many Newtons does it take to change a lightbulb?
A: Foux! There to eat lemons, axe gravy soup.
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I want an affordable (>$500 2007 dollars), multi-purpose (music / web / email / ebook / addresses), computing device, that isn't tied to being a cell phone.
Consumers don't want Windows Mobile, and they don't want Palm OS Hacket, but they do want PDAs. Otherwise, hacking the iPhone and the iPod wouldn't even be an issue.
The truth is that something the size of a steno pad would not sell, because it's simply too large to have with you all the time - even sub notebooks just aren't as popular as real notebooks.
I also disagree the Touch (or iPhone) screen size is too small. I watch it while jogging (on a treadmill) and it's perfectly easy to view. Being able to hold it steady and/or closer (as on a plane) would only make it better. And on a plane specifically I would not want a larger screen because they are too distracting - even the LCD's they have on the backs of many seats now I find too distracting if someone is watching a movie, and a laptop is really bad - I've tried watching my own movies on a flight before but I shot the laptop screen down after a while because it was too large (not to mention how awkward it is to use when the person in front of you has the seat back).
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
Not sure how you missed it, but the iPhone has a lat of third party apps - it's just that the loading mechanism is not officially supported. Putting your hands over your eyes going LA LA LA THERE ARE NO APPZ however does nothing expect make you appear extremely ill-informed.
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
If it's much bigger than my N800, doesn't have any kind of physical keyboard* support, and is as closed/limited as the 'Touch or iPhone? Then I'll stick with my N800.
... Apple will have to beat the N800 in this regard ... and I greatly preferred the N800 finger keyboard over the iPhone's)
... so windows mobile is right out). So Apple has been my natural choice for the last 7 years. I bought the n800 for the above reasons (bluetooth keyboard, ssh, open 3rd party software platform), instead of the iPhone or iPod Touch, and am in love with it.
... at this point, I doubt I'll notice nor care.
I chose the n800 over Apple because:
= open - great 3rd party app ecosystem (incl ssh and vnc)
= bluetooth keyboard, stylus screen keyboard, finger screen keyboard*
An N800 + freedom input slim (thumb) keyboard == micro laptop. Plus, theres rumors that the nextgen will have a slide-out keyboard. And WiMax.
(* I just wish the N800 had support for usb keyboards, like the dreamgear mini (thumb) keyboard
The N800 has been a big surprise for me. I have been a NeXT fan for 15 years, and as a result hated any Linux gui I came across before Hildon (thee n800's gui). I've also always been a pro bsd bigot (and anti-windows bigot
If they get it to sync contacts, calendar, and bookmarks with google (or bookmarks with delicious), and maybe more dynamic/integrated spell checking, then I don't know why I'd ever look back. Esp since someone is working on a version of hildon for the desktop.
So, most likely, ven though 9 months ago I'd have drooled over an OS X PDA like the rumored Newton II
The late lamented Sony UX-50 Palm-based PDA of several years ago was (and I'll go out on a limb here) the finest PDA that *will have ever been built*. A usable thumb keyboard, WiFi, BlueTooth, still camera, video, audio record and playback, removable storage, and a fairly active Palm-based third-party app base. It worked well with my Macs and Windows. And it was pretty darn small. Its few drawbacks mostly were related not to its technology (which was amazing for three or four years ago and still solid now) but mostly related to Sony's hoogizzashit attitude toward cool products (release them, hype them, and in two years deny you ever sold them -- this goes back at least 20 years).
Sony could have leveraged that platform to own what we now call "UMPCs" but the current UX is overpriced, overloaded (with a Redmond operating system) and just not sized right. I adored just about everything about the hardware on my UX50, to the point where when my first was stolen off my desk at work, I went and got another immediately. No, it wasn't a phone, but it sported BT and I had a pretty good EDGE BT-capable phone.
My HTC Wizard may be a phone, and have a usable keyboard, WiFi and BT, but it isn't even in the same league.
---------------------------------------
Rotate the pod, please, HAL....
Wait--more than $500 is affordable?!
- An OS X 'lite', with the UNIX backbone, iPhone UI, touch screen, etc.
- Safari, Mail, iCal, iTunes, Google Maps, all that stuff
- A webcam and mic just like the MacBooks, maybe located where the earpiece on the iPhone is
- WiFi and Bluetooth (obv.)
But the selling point, and one that they would be able to hype heavily (gotta have that), would be...- Skype (!) - text, voice and video chat with the option of adding phone integration through SkypeIn and SkypeOut. They already have a deal with Google for their Maps so I don't see why they couldn't strike a deal with eBay and preinstall Skype as the communication vehicle of choice.
Skype users would buy it, Apple users would buy it, non-iPhone users would buy it and would see it as a good (hopefully cheaper, definitely so in the long run) version of the iPhone, and a lot of clueless people would hear about Skype for the first time and dig the Videophone capabilities.It is unfortunate that this kind of device would certainly have weaker storage capabilities than my current 30-gig iPod Photo, which is what's keeping me from buying a new one in the near future. I don't really need the iPod Video without the full screen...