Slashdot Mirror
Debian Refuses To Push Timezone Update For NZ DST
Jasper Bryant-Greene writes "Although a tzdata release that includes New Zealand's recent DST changes (2007f) has been out for some time, Debian are refusing to push the update from testing into the current stable distribution, codenamed Etch, on the basis that 'it's not a security bug.' This means that unless New Zealand sysadmins install the package manually, pull the package from testing, or alter the timezone to 'GMT-13' manually, all systems running Debian Etch in New Zealand currently have the incorrect time, as DST went into effect this morning. As one of the last comments in the bug report says, 'even Microsoft are not this silly.' The final comment (at this writing), from madcoder, says 'The package sits in volatile for months. Please take your troll elsewhere.'"
It's in volatile (where it should be), it's just one line in /etc/apt/sources.list, which should probably already be there and an apt-get update && apt-get -u install tzdata
done.
New things are always on the horizon
It's Debian policy to update stable in point-releases, to have security updates through security.debian.org and packages that _need_ regular code updates (like the clamav virus scanner) in volatile. This timezone change is in volatile.
Nothing to see here, move along.
New things are always on the horizon
It's in volatile repository.
Volatile is specificly designed to take into account things like this. It's for updates to packages, like anti-virus software, and similar things that change over time.
Nobody actually reads the fucking articles do they? The guy that posted the article is a troll and selectively took quotes out of context.
What SlashDot says:
"Although a tzdata release that includes New Zealand's recent DST changes (2007f) has been out for some time, Debian are refusing to push the update from testing into the current stable distribution, codenamed Etch, on the basis that 'it's not a security bug.' This means that unless New Zealand sysadmins install the package manually, pull the package from testing, or alter the timezone to 'GMT-13' manually, all systems running Debian Etch in New Zealand currently have the incorrect time, as DST went into effect this morning. As one of the last comments in the bug report says, 'even Microsoft are not this silly.' The final comment (at this writing), from madcoder, says 'The package sits in volatile for months. Please take your troll elsewhere.'"
What is actually in the Bug Report:
----SNIP----
The fix is already in the volatile archive (see
http://volatile.debian.org/ in the etch-proposed-update archive and it
will also appear in the next release of etch. Alternatively you can also
download the new version by hand and use dpkg -i.
----SNIP----
ALSO:
----SNIP----
>>> I would recommend re-opening this bug and upgrading its severity until the fix has been
>>> applied.
>> That won't change anything as it is now out of control of the glibc team.
>>
>
> And these mission-critical updates aren't put into security, why?
>
Because it's not a security bug.
----SNIP----
NO SHIT. It's _not_ a security bug. Why should the Debian Security team be forced to deal with something that is not security? Think about it for a whole two seconds.
The tzdata was updated a long time ago and is in a Debian repository that is specificly setup to deal with changes like this.
The person who filed the bug report doesn't like this and thinks that the package should be in the security fix repository.
It's fucking stupid. It's not a security bug. The package has been fixed for a long time. It doesn't have to be installed manually. It CAN be installed manually.
Get a grip people.
There have been studies that showed it doesn't really reduce energy usage. The only thing left is having more daylight for your picnics.
http://www.google.com/search?client=opera&rls=en&q=daylight+savings+time+doesn't+save+energy&sourceid=opera&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8
"If you make people think they're thinking, they'll love you; But if you really make them think, they'll hate you." - DM
> In this case: bling = my computer knowing what time it is.
If you're running debian then it was apparently updated automatically ages ago. The article seems to be about a bug reported by somebody who chose to turn off updates except for security fixes. Naturally, then, they didn't get this update - they then asked for these things to be considered security bugs in future.
I disagree with the bug reporter. Anywhere time is used in a security mechanism (and there are many) it should be using UTC or be robust against timesaving measures (eg, only be used for approximate deadlines to improve odds). In which case a timesaving change is not needed for security. Security bugs are therefore in the application not the time metadata (except adjustments to UTC which definitely *would* be security issues).
In short - debian users' arses (and clocks) are covered just fine.
It all sounds like a shitstorm in a chamber pot to me.
True confidence comes not from realising you are as good as your peers, but that your peers are as bad as you are.
Debian is considered the stable distribution. They move glacially slow, and are, if you use their stable repo, stable as hell. If you want bleeding edge by default, install their bleeding edge version.
Otherwise, if you want Debian, install Debian.
Oh, and in response to the even-Microsoft-would-not-be-so-foolish comment: Of course not. They demonstrated their level-headed thinking when they charged $4000 for a time zone update for Windows 2000. A server OS. When you can do it for free if you know how. Debian should charge NZers $4000 Canadian (OUCH!), then they would be respected.
Please stop stalking me, bro.
That won't address the issue at all. NTP makes sure the system clock is synchronized with UTC. The issue here is how much offset from UTC should be used for times that are displayed to users.
Note to ACs: I usually delete AC replies without reading them. If you want to talk to me, log in.
The whole FA is a big mis-understanding of what the various repositories are and what they purpose are.
More information about voltile, at the corresponding debian site.
Debian is quite popular among some admins because of this. You know, once you install debian on a server, that your installation will still get critical security fixes for the next 3-4 years. But nothing else will change a bit. 0% chance that an upgrade may break your configuration file. 0% risks that all the scripts that you manually wrote will suddenly stop functionning because of subtle differences between version 1.8.6.9 and 1.8.6.10 in some obscure software. (which are things that could occasionally happen with other distribution ) NO dependency hell once you start using updated software (like a 3rd party repository targeting a library version 2.0.9, but the distro having updated to 2.0.11. Very rarely it can happen between openSUSE and packman).
But as AC said in this thread, maybe the installation procedure of Debian should give
"Sufficiently advanced satire is indistinguishable from reality." - [Tips: 1DrYakQDKCQ6y52z6QbnkxHXAocMZJE61o ]
That said,being a fan of Debian based OSs,I'm wondering why they are doing this. Does this patch cause crashes? System instability? If not it seems a disservice to their NZ users not to have it in their standard repository.
ACs don't waste your time replying, your posts are never seen by me.
The complaint amounts to "You should have put it in the wrong place because I was looking in the wrong place and didn't find it." People who actually bother to think about what they're doing use Debian precisely *because* you can rely on them sticking to the rules.
That's why I love it too. I really don't like the distributions where you get a big bunch of packages as a release, which you are then basically stuck with until the next release (at which point you have to upgrade and cross your fingers, or reinstall). Like Ubuntu, you get a whole ton of packages, and there are always a few that have a subtle bug. But since you're on one release, you don't get the fix until six months later (of course, you can install it separately, but it's a pain). With Debian, if an app is broken in some way, I get the fix as soon as that developer releases a new version, without affecting any other package.
And it's really not that complicated to use. Even things like nvidia drivers are just a m-a autoinstall nvidia away. Sometimes it takes a while, but eventually I find Debian makes things like that very simple and integrated.
This is the debian *STABLE* branch. In testing I imagine they would do it quickly...well, within a week.
The point is, stable is supposed to be stable, and only changed for very good cause (which this is), and then only after considerable testing...which this hasn't had. An exception is made for security fixes because it's considered *necessary* to patch vulnerabilities. Otherwise, no. Even if you don't see how it could cause a problem, you don't include changes without considerable review and testing. That's what stable means.
OTOH, if you choose to import it from another repository...it's your choice. And simple to do. (I'll grant that I don't understand the "volitile" response. The repositories I'm aware of are stable, testing, unstable, and experimental. Presumably volitile has something to do with the stable branch.)
Given all that...I don't see how the timezone file could cause a problem, and I don't see why it should have set in the volitile repository for weeks. Perhaps nobody would test it before they needed it?
I think we've pushed this "anyone can grow up to be president" thing too far.
O frabjous day! Callooh! Callay!
FTR, actually that's not the case. Someone else who stumbled onto the problem near the last minute doesn't like the fact that it didn't go into the main repository or security repository. I -- the person who filed the original bug -- am perfectly happy with the fix going into the volatile archive, and patched the servers I manage months ago. (I think it's rather unfortunate it missed the 4.0r1 point release, and unfortunate (but understandable) that there's no patch for Debian Sarge ("oldstable"), but otherwise the situation seems to have been handled fine. For Debian Sarge it works okay to take the NZ or Pacific/Auckland timezone file from a patched Etch system and put it onto the Sarge system.)
Ewen
Protocols mandate close synch of UTC. If they required clock-on-the-wall time to be synchronized then they wouldn't work across time zone boundaries. I manage a network with staff in six timezones, between UTC-8 and UTC+9, some of them with non-integer offsets, with (from memory) four different sets of DST rules, including one (Japan) that doesn't do daylight saving. I know about the timezones because I'm a clock geek sad enough to know the difference between UTC and GMT. But I don't need my systems to understand it (aside from shouting at bloody Apple for thinking BST, UTC+1, is called BDT). That's because everything that cares about timing (Clearcase, WebDAV, SVN, NFS, Make...) works in UTC.
the sensationalist /. summary asside lets get some facts.
it is not a security update so it doesn't go in the security repositry
it is already in the volatile repositry
it is already in etch-pryoposed-updates which means it will probablly be in the next point release of etch
pushing a point release of stable is not something that has been taken lighly, lots of CDs to build and push out to mirrors, lots and lots of testing.
Sure the US changes got better treatment, how much of that was luck and how much of it was being one of the largest (in terms of computer using population) countries arround is hard to tell.
If you can't live with the way debian stable releases work choose another distro. If you can't manage your IT infrastructure such that deploying local patches is not unreasonably difficult fire your IT staff.
note: i'm known as plugwash most places but i screwd up registering that here somehow in the past and now can't register