Verizon, Copper, Fiber, and the Truth

Alexander Graham Cracker writes "Starting last spring, reports began surfacing of Verizon routinely disabling copper as it installed its fiber-based FiOS service. We discussed the issue here a couple of times. In my experience, every time Verizon has installed FiOS at a friend's house, they have insisted they have to cut off the copper and move the POTS to the fiber. By doing so, they block anyone else such as COVAD or Cavalier from renting the copper for competitive access. Sources report that today, at a hearing of the House Subcommittee on Telecommunications and the Internet, Verizon executive VP Thomas Tauke denied ever doing that. (The transcript should be up in a day or so. The AP coverage does not mention this detail.) I wonder if Rep. Markey's staff is interested in hearing from people who experienced Verizon disabling copper, and without notice?"

Comments

Not really surprised

[Ryukotsusei]

So they're blocking off potential competitors? At least it's spurring the move to Fiber Optic...

Re:Not really surprised

[tinkerghost]

Fiber is getting to play by new rules. Old rules say that if you are going to use the public right-of-way, you have to share the lines. The new rules say - gimmey-da-money-and-shut-up.

The old Telco laws were expressly written to handle the copper POTS lines since there was no other service. Now that fiber is being run in, the telco's are saying that since the law says POTS, it's POTS & POTS only - and spending billions squashing attempts at updating the law while they're at it.

As a side note, I have a friend who works for Verizon & per the techs, they only yank the copper if it makes fishing the fiber easier - otherwise it's too much work & trouble.

Re:Not really surprised

[Anonymous Coward]

They laid the cable as well, but decades ago. The difference is: the copper was installed under "rate of return" regulation; aka "the more money you waste; the more money you get from the subscribers..."

That's not true for the glass, as the Bells [in most states] got freed from RoR several years ago.

So the copper is essentially yours & mine, held in trust by Ma's stepkids. Can we sue them for neglect, and get custody, al-la K-Fed?

Re:Not really surprised

[BLKMGK]

I have a friend who works for Verizon too. His perspective, in Baltimore, is quite interesting. Seems they have STOPPED "maintaining" the copper. They do service calls when it breaks but no more tree cutting or other routine maintenance. He says some areas are so bad that as fast as they fix one issue another crops up and the waiting list for service calls is long enough that it can take a week or more to get a tech out. The way he explains it is that as soon as they get fiber out they are going to rent or sell the copper albatross and let the next guy in line deal with the mess that has come from the lack of maintenance.

As for pulling copper.... Their peeve where he is at is the cable companies. Cable companies come in with VOIP and use "their" boxes on the side of the house to junction the inside copper. So their management has been threatening to begin removing these junction boxes from the sides of the houses and remove the copper from the pole too. This means that if someone switches from VOIP to them again they incur additional charges. He claims that the boxes on the sides of the house belong to Verizon and that their management says this is kosher to do. Oh and they are also upset that the cable companies aren't doing things like inside wiring service calls. He says that when an inside issue occurs the cable companies tell the customer they cannot help and so customers are witching back to Verizon in order to get these problems resolved. The Verizon employees are apparently upset that they are somehow held to different standards than the VOIP companies etc.

He started telling me about this over a year ago. I've only just recently seen articles in the Wash. Post about local communities in Northern VA waking up to the fact that Verizon has stopped maintaining the copper infrastructure they were entrusted with and that the tax payers partially funded - I couldn't help but snicker when Verizon denied this activity.

As for FIOS. They are forcing the techs to work OT and drive quite a bit more than they used to as copper techs so many refuse to switch. They also monitor the fiber techs a good bit more with GPS etc. so no more parking lot naps (I'm serious). FIOS is taking awhile to roll out because it is a lot of work for an install - triple play takes 8 hours and they often have to replace ALL cable in the house....

Re:Not really surprised

[tinkerghost]

Interesting tidbit from one Verizon tech perspective (why would we want to do more work etc.) On the other hand, I wonder how many situations arise where its just so much easier to yank the copper instead of spending time / man hours / $$$ to "fish" through the fiber.

Actually, that's from the perspective of one of the managers who deals directly with install tech problems. As for how often, FWIU, copper is being yanked when it's underground installs and feeds that have to go through thick treetops. It's easier to tape the fiber to one end of the copper & yank it through than to run a new line separately. And it's the techs on site who make the call.

Re:Not really surprised

[Anonymous Coward]

Copper goes from your house (commonly called "the drop") back to a pedestal. From the pedestal or "cross-box", it rides 600 pair cables back to the Central Office where it's terminated on a big rack (called a "frame"). The phone company uses little heat coils to protect the Central Office from lightning strikes.
The Central Office also houses companies called CLECs (Competitive Local Exchange Carrier).

In this day and age, most CLEC's don't want to offer residential services. There's very little money in it. Churn and low overhead just don't make it worth while. Business services are where CLECs are focusing their attention. $45 a month business lines with voicemail, hunt groups, 800 number services and other PBX services are where CLECs are going to focus their efforts.

If you think Mom & Pop are going to march down to the local Central Office, rent some space, install a phone switch, some fiber muxes and pay for some OC3's and OC12's for trunking, and then head on down with a picnic table and camp out at the local grocery store to sell dialtone to Aunt Susie or Farmer Ted for $15 a month, you've got another thing coming. The CO x-connect and the local loop is going to cost $12 a month.

There are very few CLECs that want to offer local residential dialtone, and they're ONLY going to cherry-pick the best neighborhoods that are easiest to hit, have the highest "take" rate, and will order the MOST number of features.

Leaving copper connected is a liability and a maintenance issue. The copper drop at the house was probably installed when the house was built. In newer subdivisions, the drop can contain as many as 6 copper pairs. Installing FiOS means they've put in fiber to the home. The fiber is much more reliable. You won't have crosstalk, echo, or impulse noise on your dialtone with FiOS.

Crying about Verizon (or anyone else) disconnecting copper to your house is like crying about the TV repairman taking away your tube TV and giving you one that is solid state. You will find increasingly less and less support for the old copper, and costs will go up.

If you really want to complain about something, complain about the patent shenanigans. Complain about Amazon and the "1-click" business. Complain about the "obvious" patents that hold up true competition. Open up VoIP to all competitors. The lobbyists and protectionism given by lawmakers and in the patent office are what's really hurting competition. Vonage and other VoIP providers are the way of the future.

Happened to me

[Shimmer]

When I switched from cable internet to FiOS earlier this year I was told that had to permanently cut the copper wire to my house. So I now have fiber phone service. Works fine, except for the short delay that always occurs between picking up the phone and using it. They also put a battery in my basement to give me eight hours of phone service during a power outage.

Re:Monopoly power

[Overzeetop]

That would require the politicians to grow a backbone, and simply won't happen. But yes, physical plant should be maintained by an entirely separate entity - ideally a semi-governmental one, though one with tight regulatory and price control would be acceptable (think of your water and sewer service as a good example).

Of course, if that were the case you might argue that satellites should be the same. Then again, if we had public physical plants, we probably wouldn't need satellite to have competition!

Re:This is routine in the HQ of FTTP

[homer_ca]

It's the same in California. When I signed up earlier this year, it even said in the install FAQs on the website that they'll cut the copper. It doesn't say that any more, though.

The only reason they didn't was because I don't have POTS and only ordered Internet. I'm also in a small apartment building, and they ran fiber just to my unit because I'm the only one in the building who ordered FIOS.

Are you sure?

[WindBourne]

You would think that wires run to the closest exchange, but that is not always the case. I saw a case at USWest (LONG ago), where the closest exchange was across the street, but because it was added later, our wires ran several miles up the road.

Govt corrupt, but so is election process...

[zooblethorpe]

Don't be mad at Verizon because your government is completely fraudulent and corrupt -- if you vote, kick everyone out on the next election, and keep doing it until someone removes the monopoly provisions.

Color me cynical, but what do you suggest when the whole election process has been subverted to the point that only pro-business candidates ever seem to get far enough to be voted upon? Seriously, when was the last time a truly progressive (and I don't mean "liberal", I mean "working for positive change for more than the candidate's own pocketbook") candidate made it through all the primaries and other BS to reach the ballot with any serious chance of gaining office? A few third parties have historically made it to the ballot, but by the time of the election, they've been painted with such a broad brush of unacceptabilty by the media and the two entrenched parties that they haven't stood much of a chance. Armed revolution has been brought up a few times as one possible option, but it really looks to me like the vast majority of the country is either too apathetic or too enamoured of the status quo to go that far. People aren't poor and pinched enough yet to really get motivated.

You can't get FiOS in Silicon Valley

[MichaelCrawford]

here it is fourteen years after the web appeared, and the heart of American high-tech doesn't have fiber service to its residents.

I know this because I was trying to get fiber, then found a huge long thread on Usenet as to why there's no fiber in Sunnyvale, where I live and work: basically the telcos are trying to squeeze all the money they can out of old infrastructure, without investing in new.

This left me with cable and DSL. I don't want Comcast cable internet because they filter BitTorrent. I operate a torrent tracker for legal music downloads, so I need to use BitTorrent just to check that my tracker and seed are up.

DSL seemed to out as well because I'm over three miles from the phone office. I was very surprised that something hadn't already been done to make DSL available to silicon valley residents. I'm sure there are ways they could extend the range of DSL in an affordable way.

Finally I found Stephouse which, through COVAD, offers IDSL. That's DSL over ISDN, and I'm just within range. It's what I have now.

Verizon BLOWS

[sneakyimp]

Anyone who doesn't think this is a crime is a moron. *We* paid for this indirectly by subsidizing telco monopolies with our tax dollars. Also, isn't Verizon the company that has tried to stop the 700MHZ auction through legal auction? They are bending over backwards to try and eliminate competition. It's painfully obvious and it really pisses me off. As for that right-wing troll who complains about Markey being a socialist, I wish I could put him in a factory before the Sherman Act of 1890. I bet we wouldn't hear him complaining about socialist tendencies then. Furthermore, is it really 'anti-business' if the government is trying to encourage *competition* ? Think about it moron. What you really should be complaining about is Verizon and their ilk taking money from the cookie jar that is the Universal Service Fund which is *supposed* to guarantee service to rural areas - $4B out of our pockets *every year*. Have you ever tried using your cell phone in a remote area? Do you think you can get high-speed internet in Bald Knob, Arkansas? I seriously doubt it. Futhermore, Verizon won the $10B Federal IWN contract *and* wants to get more government money from the USF for the 700MHZ spectrum. Their gall knows no bounds. If you are a true republican you should be complaining about all this pork and the pig that is Verizon. Quadraginta, *please* STFU!

Re:Happened to Me Too!

[Tumbleweed]

But *do* they own it? They're bringing in a new service. If Verizon isn't the one who laid down the copper originally, I'm not sure it's Verizon's to pull out.

It wouldn't matter to me personally as I use my cellphone for my only phoneline, anyway. :)

Also, they don't offer FiOS in my area (Bellevue, WA). :(

Tech support told me they had to get rid of copper

[Anonymous Coward]

I called Verizon tech support for clarification about FIOS installation several months back. I was concerned that if the power went out, the phone would go dead in a few hours. (I don't have a backup generator or any plans to get one.) Verizon said all the phone lines in the house had to be switched over to fiber, so I declined to have it installed at that time, which was a shame because I had waited eagerly for several months till it became available in my area. I just called back 3 weeks ago, and their story had changed. Now, only the line getting FIOS has to be wwitched. So I guess I'll be getting fiber.

It gets even worse

[TheMeld]

My downstairs neighbor had FIOS put in. In addition to disconnecting the neighbor's copper all the way to the pole, the wonderfully helpful FIOS installer:

• Cut the copper line where it entered my building
  
• Filled the hole in the wall with silicone goo (preventing rewiring of the copper)
  
• Disconnected the copper all the way up to the pole
  
• Changed/disconnected my copper connection at the CO
  
• Plugged the FIOS unit in the basement into an outlet that is on my electric meter
  

It took me 3 weeks of fighting with Verizon (who insisted on taking 2 days to make a service appointment window, and insisted that they be 8a-7p) and my DSL provider (who was horribly frustrated by their inability to get Verizon to simply run a clean *bleeping* loop) to get things back up and running.

Re:infrasrtructure

[Lumpy]

Problem is let's take cable. most negotiate a franchise agreement that blocks all competition in that city. Comcast in your town? you cant legally start up your own cable company, there's a law on the books that makes your business illegal.

This was done on purpose to kill community TV setups in the 70's and 80's. Where my parents lived we had no cable TV but the neighborhood had a huge tower on one vacant lot and a TV distribution system, we recieved 8 channels clear as day as well as had 2 sattelite channels modulated on the TV cable. UA cable came into town and convinced the local city that they cant afford to operate in the city with these community TV setups legal. so they got laws drafted in the agreement to make them illegal and they had to be torn down. this happened all over america.

Cable is even more anti-competitive than the telcos. I know I worked in the industry for 7 years.