Slashdot Mirror
Judges Reinstate Charges In Google Age Discrimination Suit
theodp writes "A California appeals court has reinstated former Stanford prof Brian Reid's age-discrimination suit against Google, ruling that a lower Court erred in siding with Google and rejecting Mr. Reid's claims. From the Court Decision (PDF): 'We conclude that Reid produced sufficient evidence that Google's reasons for terminating him were untrue or pretextual, and that Google acted with discriminatory motive such that a factfinder would conclude Google engaged in age discrimination.' As side notes, helping Reid make his case is CS Prof Norman Matloff, while Google's actions are being defended by Wilson Sonsini Goodrich & Rosati of pretexting-was-not-generally-unlawful fame."
By the way, what reasons are accepted for firing someone? In the European Union firing an employee is very hard because of the EU's strong social laws. But we know the US is a capitalist country, so how about the US?
You still can't discriminate if Florida. I know this from personal experience (dealt with a ton of ADA claims in a previous job) so, no, even in Florida age discrimination is illegal.
The difference is, you don't have to give cause. So you could fire someone, give no reason, and the onus would be on them to make a case for discrimination.
I only go to buffets for the unlimited soft serve.
If they chose them based entirely on their merits like 'best qualified', 'most passionate', 'willing to work for the least money' then that'd be fine. The problem arises when an employer uses an irrational reason to choose between two perfectly capable candidates. Age, especially in a compsci job, is not a factor that stops someone doing the job well. Equally factors like race, gender, and disability don't necessarily stop someone doing a good job. So why rule out people based on any of them?
Discrimination laws actually help companies. If they discriminate and turn away the best person because they fail to meet some ludicrous and irrelevant target like "is the candidate white?" or "is the candidate under 30?" the company is going to suffer as a result. Employers need protecting from themselves.
http://twitter.com/onion2k
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doctrine_of_Fascism#Quotations
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corporatism#Italian_fascist_corporativism
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Manifesto_of_the_Fascist_Struggle
Fascism has a meaning, it does not just mean "uncool". It's a political doctrine with a precise ideology. And ideology that the original poster embraces in this context.
\u262D = \u5350
"As a geek, I like to be in favor of strong employment laws that give the government full audit power over every corporation's decision to fire any one whatsoever. However, I don't like when it gets used against good guys, like Google."
Brian was hired about a year before Google went public and beefed up the org chart (which helps for an IPO) because looks great on paper: invented the firewall, altavista, the PAIX, Scribe (which begat sgml which begat html) and quickly rose up the ranks to be director of engineering or vp of ops or something fairly high up. His only written review was glowing. Very very shorly before Google went public he was fired for "not fitting in with Google's youthful culture" thus saving Google from granting his significant stock options.
That's what it's really about: the money.
Even Gates and monkeyboy havn't done anything this capricious and arbitrary with employees as far as I can tell.
Net result: Google more evil that Microsoft, much as it pains me to say it.
Suck on that, fanboy.
Need Mercedes parts ?
No. The court held that summary judgment was inappropriately granted, because there is a material question of fact regarding whether or not Google engaged in illegal conduct. In other words, if a jury were to believe everything Reid presented, and make reasonable inferences from that evidence, they could reasonably conclude that Google engaged in age discrimination.
I'm a lawyer, but not yours. I wouldn't represent someone who thinks taking legal advice from Slashdot is a good idea.
"It seems that besides being a good engineer you have to be "culturally fit".
I kinda agree: a pessimistic or unsociable person could endanger the spirit and the enthusiasm of others. I would not like to work with a highly intelligent but depressive person, if his depression would affect my everyday mood. Not to mention if the guy is the PM.
On the other hand, I would be fucking upset for being fired because of not fitting into the company's social standards "
I know Brian very very well. He's one of the most positive poeple I know. You could probably sell his blood as an anti-depressant.
He was fired because Sergei didn't want to give him his stock options. They used the age thing as an excuse as it's harder to prove in court.
Need Mercedes parts ?
I'm 50 now, and (for me) the answer is Hell Yes. My rates are back where they were just before the dotcom bust (not the insane $150+ per hour rates, but the reasonable market ones back then). I'm turning away work again in Silicon Valley.
I find that I've gotten far, far better with age. You may have heard of the old mainframe guy with 30+ years of experience who can look at the output and tell you what the problem is. Well, I'm there. With the Linux/Unix kernel and other system work. I find that I'm the person who the younger guys come to with their questions, as I've worked on most of the code at one point or another. And I certainly get the toughest problems to debug.
So yes, if you keep your skills up and are hard working, there are indeed companies which value results over bigotry. A pity that Google isn't that way.
However, if you don't, you end up like the guys on the Dice board. You'll find a lot of people moaning that they can't find work, and that things are dead slow in Silicon Valley, yadda yadda. IMHO, things are hot, and those guys are missing the bus. Yes, they are probably smart. But the market for mainframe systems guys has long dried up. And IBM is doing their best to kill it.
Take the postings on Dice with a LARGE grain of salt; they are highly skewed. The Dice moderators are absolutely insane, deleting many posts without cause, and generally driving away the good commentators. It's rather telling that the only ones who can put up with that nonsense are the guys without jobs.
If anyone knows of a good board which discusses technical and contract issues, please do post. Dice absolutely sucks.
So, in summary, yes, the market is alive and well. But I'd get into development, because I see a lot of cheap button-pushers in IT. And most companies seem to not want to understand IT issues. They think that all they have to do is to push a button (E.g. Microsoft Exchange) and all their issues are solved. And the fact that certain architectures will bite them later on isn't an issue.
But that's most companies, not all. I'm at a hot, bright startup, and we've tried hiring a top notch IT person. It is tough. So there is demand out there, and probably always will be. But you have to keep your skills up.
"I agree with some of the above posters. The guy was an idiot to leave his university job. You chase the dollar signs, you lose. "
Google persued him, to fix some personel problems they were having with women employees, which he did. Brian is very very very good with people. He was very quickly made director or vp of engineering or operations or something based on his glowing performance; TFA points out his only written review was "glowing".
He was only at Stanford a couple of years. He was the Director of the Network Systems Laboratory at DEC for over a decade.
He invented the firewall and lots of other things you probably use every day.
You may now humbly recant your unfounded "idiot" accusation.
Need Mercedes parts ?
if its the same guy who worked at DEC in palo alto many years ago, then I worked with the guy for a very short period of time on a (amazingly enough) network management project! I was in DEC back in Maynard (at the Mill, actually) and brian was part of DEC west. he was VERY well respected as an 'IP god' of sorts ;) this was back in the late 80's - around the time that I left the boston area and moved out to the sf bay area.
again, I only worked with brian for a very short time and only on 1 netmgt project, but his reputation was one that I'd be proud to have, myself. if he couldn't 'pass muster' in google's eyes I would guess that it was google that was in the wrong and not brian.
sheesh. this is weird. and a bit upsetting, too.
--
"It is now safe to switch off your computer."
I'm not sure what your point it given you said you'd do what he's doing. Will it take a while? Sure. Are the stakes high? Now that Goog is $600/share, uh, yeah, they couldn't be much higher given he had pre-IPO options. A lot of them.
The guy invented the web search engine and is one of the top computer scientists of all time. There's zero chance he's not an asset to Google. If you actually knew the man you'd know this. Don't guess.
Don't be so sure he doesn't have people lining up to hire him. Just because he's trying to get X million he was screwed out of doesn't imply this.
Right now he works for Vixie/ISC who I understand has been trying to hire him for ages.
It used to be a "fricken mess". It just got better.
Need Mercedes parts ?
I found the original quote: "The Internet is about consensus, not truth. Never mistake truth for consensus."
And another favorite:
"Digital doesn't see that IAHC has anything to do with Internet. They see it as being about corporate relationships and alliances. In other words, what matters is not what IAHC does or says, but rather what other companies see Digital as doing."
and
"Who would have thought that the ICANN zoo would be even more of a freak show than the US presidential election?"
And one that really scared me:
Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2001 09:21:28 -0800
From: Brian Reid
Subject: "ICANN mandate: Stability of the Internet"
Whenever a military dictator takes over a third world country, the reason always given for the coup d'etat is to "preserve the stability of my country." Check your history books. That's always what they say.
Need Mercedes parts ?