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Japanese Stealth Fighter Announced as 'Return of the Zero'

reporter writes "According to a news article by the Associated Press, Tokyo has begun developing an indigenous stealth jet fighter that will be deployed in 2016. Mitsubishi, the prime contractor, has already developed a full-scale model, of which several pictures have been accidentally leaked to the press. The model is named 'Mitsubishi ATD-X"'. A laboratory of the French government has evaluated the "stealthy-ness" of ATD-X, and given it a high rating. Will ATD-X achieve air superiority over the F-22, which Washington refuses to sell to Tokyo?"

16 of 526 comments (clear)

  1. Tech issues and socio-political issues. by BWJones · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Well, given that the F-22 has made more than one appearance in Japan, I am certain the Japanese government is interested. However, this raises more than a few issues, specifically related to technology and sociopolitical issues as well. The JDAF (Japanese Defense Air Force) has been so named as it has been a Japanese Constitutional issue that their armed forces are for defense only and not aggression. The interesting thing about stealth technology however, is that it is almost exclusively used for aggression rather than defense if you play your strategy according to tradition.

    I got a quick tour of the F-22, but no pictures allowed of the F-22 during my last visit up to Hill AFB and the F-22 is making the rounds and is being explored for possible basing in other countries, but there are technology sales issues with the aircraft as it will be almost impossible to strip the sensitive technologies out of the aircraft and make it "saleable".

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    1. Re:Tech issues and socio-political issues. by MonorailCat · · Score: 2, Interesting

      While the stealth=aggression argument is a slam-dunk for bombers, I would disagree with this assessment for a fighter. A non-stealth fighter would have great difficulty successfully defending against a stealth-capable agressor. I don't think this aircraft will encounter treaty difficulties.

    2. Re:Tech issues and socio-political issues. by meringuoid · · Score: 4, Interesting
      I'm surprised they don't do more with their Military. I think they are counting on their somewhat innocent attitude to bring the US to the rescue should they be forced into a war.

      I think the US rather insisted on that. Pacifism got written into the Japanese constitution after the war, more or less at Washington's dictate. They're not allowed to spend more than some tiny percentage of GNP on defence, either.

      --
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    3. Re:Tech issues and socio-political issues. by MightyMartian · · Score: 5, Interesting

      I'm not going to blame the US for the disarmament of Japan. It was a necessary thing to do in 1945. It was also necessary to make all the reforms, including a constitution which enshrined the peaceful nature of the Japanese military.

      But that was 62 years ago, and in the meantime, Japan has become one of the US's most important allies and economic partners, and with the rise of China and the re-rise of Russia, I think it's important to consider that Japan may want to modify the nature of their military, and that maybe it's really in our best interests to allow them to do this.

      The Japan of today is not the Japan of the 1930s, and even if it were, it simply is no longer in any position to do much about it.

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    4. Re:Tech issues and socio-political issues. by pato101 · · Score: 2, Interesting

      , but here is the deal... You have to go active to see targets
      Unless you have AWACS tracking the targets and emitting their positions to you.

      I've been told here in slashdot that the F-22 which get run out of ammo do go away from the battle field and act as AWACS for the rest of still fighting F-22s.

      So the F-22 is a very powerful weapon, specially when combined with AWACS.

    5. Re:Tech issues and socio-political issues. by sapgau · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Maybe striking first is the best defense. Just ask Israel.

    6. Re:Tech issues and socio-political issues. by mha · · Score: 3, Interesting

      I *love* to be corrected and take no offense - it is the only way to learn after all! I'll be eternally grateful to a colleague who taught me the correct "th" because at some point he couldn't stand it any more :-) NOT to say anything is what's bad.

    7. Re:Tech issues and socio-political issues. by mha · · Score: 2, Interesting

      The problem *I* have (so take all I say with an added "IMHO") with ANY of those strategies is that in the end they don't work. Well, of course they do and that's why they don't... what I mean is displayed (rather unscientifically) in a (60s? 70s?) movie where some kid breaks into the military super computer they had just turned over all control of their nukes to and starts a game, without knowing what kind of machine he's connected to. The end scene of that movie is that when they cannot turn that thing off they let it play tic-tac-toe and the computer finds out there is no winning strategy.

      That's what game strategy tells us too: there is no winning strategy, there's ALWAYS another one that beats whatever your playing - without necessarily being better, because it's a circle and not an eternal buildup of strategy.

      What I mean is that yes, you CAN continue building more and more and bigger and bigger arms and "new" strategies. In the end all you achieve is making the accidental extinction of humans as a species more likely, because the earth is somewhat limited as to how big a catastrophe is survivable. And all for what? The risk of war is too high, because it CAN'T be controlled once started. So war IS a feasible "solution" only as long as at least one of the parties involved has weapons that are too small to risk the earth itself.

      On the other hand, if current trends continue, more and more players are inevitably going to acquire the ability to mass-destruct ourselves, with more and more technologies getting smaller, cheaper and more readily available. You can't eternally prevent most everyone else from getting certain chemicals, germs or Uranium.

      But if you keep using strategies and thinking of an age when war was small-scale this WILL lead to catastrophe. I don't say it must, but you know... imagine 200 years from now, when even more incredible tech. is available then today. All it takes is ONE nut case, one depressed individual, rejected lover, whatever... oh my god.

    8. Re:Tech issues and socio-political issues. by TubeSteak · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Maybe striking first is the best defense. Just ask Israel. By definition, striking first is not defense. This is especially relevent to a country whose constitution binds its armed forces to defensive actions only.

      So maybe you're right, but "the best defense is a good offense" is utterly and completly offtopic.
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    9. Re:Tech issues and socio-political issues. by Martin+Blank · · Score: 3, Interesting

      You guys are missing a critical fact here. The US and Japan both operate AWACS, leaving the active scanning to those aircraft until firing position is achieved, and perhaps not even that when modern datalinks are factored into the equation. Nobody cares if they're blasting the skies with a radar signal that the entire theater can see, because they're doing it from so far beyond missile range that anyone that tries to pop them will be seen by the AWACS and intercepted by intervening escorts aircraft which are vectored in without using their own radars until the last moment. It's like the days of old, standing high up on a hill, out of range of catapults and archers, and directing the battle in relatively high safety.

      In modern air combat where AWACS are involved, by the time you're lit up by the enemy fighter's radar, it's too late, and you'd better be praying that your chaff, evasive action, and your ejection seat work.

      --
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  2. Or maybe just a mockup? by dgr73 · · Score: 5, Interesting

    While the external frame is very important to any airplane, stealthy or not, what matters is what goes into the plane and what materials is it built out of. You can't just build a life-size carbon fiber chassis and call it a stealth plane if you put a whole heap of non-stealthy stuff inside.

    Stealth is a defensive technology anyway, meaning your fighter is stealthy only until a single weakness is found. You can't really say at this point if this is a project that will succeed. Or if it's even meant to succeed. I mean, would you put it past the Japanese to force the US hand to sell them to F22 by threatening to build a competitor which they might sell to god-knows-who to finance the development. the previous sentence is an artistic liberty I took to get my point across, i'm sure the F22 is more advanced than the F15 in areas other than stealth.

  3. Go Japan! by Supercooldude · · Score: 2, Interesting

    It's about time Japan got back into the jet fighter game, considering they haven't built an all-indigenous fighter since the Mitsubish F-1 (a relatively unimpressive fighter in the class of such technological heavyweights as the J-22 Orao and the Nanchang Q-5). The Mitsubishi F-2 was just a copy of the F-16 airframe with Japanese avionics.

  4. Re:the real issue by garett_spencley · · Score: 2, Interesting

    While I can not speak with entire certainty about the last 60 years, I can say that there are a lot of people who feel that Japan is only an "ally" because they were forced to surrender in WWII due to a) the US dropping nukes on them (one on Hiroshima and one on Nagasaki ... which were the only two the US had with months required to build another one, but the Japanese did not know that) and b) Russia had finally declared war on them.

    Japan entered World War II with the intent of conquering Asia. They invaded China (without ever formally declaring War since both China and Japan feared it would cause their trading partners to stop supplying them) for it's resources and eventually The Philippines which was an act of war against the US. The Japanese were notorious for committing atrocities. Germany gets most of the attention for the Holocaust but the Japanese were also quite brutal. Usually we hear about the suicide pilots who would crash their planes into enemy ships but they also raped and tortured enemies and their "creed" (for lack of a better term) was "fight to the death". They would then mutilate bodies of killed enemies stuffing their genitals in their mouths etc. This was done to demoralize the Allied troops.

    Now personally I do not believe the Japanese are still like this. Their surrender in WWII was with many conditions imposed by the Allies. They initially rejected the offer but after Russia declared war on them and the 2nd nuke was dropped on Nagasaki they felt they had no choice. My history isn't 100% up to snuff but I believe that the Allies worked with the Japanese government much the same way the current US government is trying to work with Iraq to instate a new government and new, democratic, systems etc. However, those who are young can not understand the positions of the veterans and their immediate descendants who passed on their strong hatred and mistrust of the Japanese for their utter brutality in WWII. It takes time for things to change. I don't think Japan really is an "ally" of the US. I think the US government still strongly mistrusts the Japanese and wants to keep them on a very short leash to make sure that the events of WWII do not repeat themselves.

  5. Re:Japanese will beat US any time by mce · · Score: 2, Interesting

    The military game is not about volume and mass production anymore, as it was back in those days. The Zero was better than anything the allies had at the time, but in terms of people volume and production volume the US was non-beatable, at least once they were awake, something Admiral Yamamoto predicted very accurately when he said "I can run wild for six months ... after that, I have no expectation of success." The Pacific half of WWII was one of attrition. (The other half of it also was one, actually, once the little madman in Germany pulled in the USSR and the US.) There will never again be a war like WWII, and certainly to between Japan and anyone.

    The military game nowadays is about high-tech capabilities, and its economic counterpart is about producing the support for those and selling that. I have no doubt whatsoever that the Japanese can beat the sh*t out of the US in this area if they really want to. If they don't, it'll only be for a "lack of wanting" imposed by their history. not for a lack of ability.

    Besides, Japan beat the US in the car industry hands-down by doing just that: focus on becoming, being, and remaining better and persist until success is assured, no matter what. And that even was partly a volume game, meaning they beat the US on its home turf.

  6. Re:Japanese will beat US any time by mangu · · Score: 3, Interesting
    The Zero was better than anything the allies had at the time, but in terms of people volume and production volume the US was non-beatable


    That comparison may be valid for American vs. German tanks, but not for Japanese vs. American airplanes. Japan created what was undoubtedly its best fighter, the Zero, in 1939, and never did anything better than that. OTOH, the US kept releasing better and better planes during WWII; the P-51 had a cruising speed that was 20 mph faster than the Zero's *top* speed in level flight.


    Japan beat the US in the car industry hands-down by doing just that: focus on becoming, being, and remaining better and persist until success is assured, no matter what


    They did that in the video and audio industry, until everyone had all the VCRs and boomboxes they wanted. Then the focus shifted to computers and cellphones. Where is Japan now? Why is it that Sony, the unbeatable monster of audio and video equipment has to buy their phone technology from a Swedish corporation?


    I think Japan has a very weak spot: they are excellent at improving existing technologies, but they cannot create new ones. When they finally dominate an industry, it becomes more or less irrelevant and a new industry dominates the economy.


    I'm sure there will be better Japanese CPUs in the future to rival Intel or AMD, there'll be better Japanese cellphones than Nokia, Ericsson, or Motorola. But I'm ready to bet that by then there will exist a new gadget that no one imagines today, and that gadget will have been invented in the USA or Europe.

  7. They're also fairly easy to detect from the ground by melted · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Just emit the right wavelength and find a dark spot moving in the sky (i.e. absence of normal atmospheric backscatter). Then launch a rocket with multi-spectral guidance system. It'll either see it visually, or through a radar (when it's close), or in infrared (it's warm, it burns fuel, you see). Check out C-400 Triumph. It shoots down anything and everything, whether it's in the stratosphere or close to the ground within the radius of 250 miles. Russians have no qualms selling this stuff to Arabs and the Chinese, either, so don't expect F-22 to ever be deployed over UAE or China. Or at least don't expect it to be deployed for long.