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Vinyl To Signal the End for CDs?

PJ1216 writes to mention that vinyl seems poised to make a comeback in the music industry. Some are even predicting that this comeback coupled with the surge in digital music sales could possibly close the door on CDs. "Portability is no longer any reason to stick with CDs, and neither is audio quality. Although vinyl purists are ripe for parody, they're right about one thing: Records can sound better than CDs. Although CDs have a wider dynamic range, mastering houses are often encouraged to compress the audio on CDs to make it as loud as possible: It's the so-called loudness war. Since the audio on vinyl can't be compressed to such extremes, records generally offer a more nuanced sound. Another reason for vinyl's sonic superiority is that no matter how high a sampling rate is, it can never contain all of the data present in an analog groove, Nyquist's theorem to the contrary."

12 of 883 comments (clear)

  1. not this again... by onemorehour · · Score: 5, Informative

    Another reason for vinyl's sonic superiority is that no matter how high a sampling rate is, it can never contain all of the data present in an analog groove, Nyquist's theorem to the contrary.

    This statement is true, but completely irrelevant. The fact that a recording medium is analog does not mean that it is better at accurately recording and reproducing a sound than a digital medium. Magnetic tapes are also analog recordings. Putting a pencil on a string, hanging it next to a speaker, and having it draw a line on a moving sheet of paper is also an analog recording.

    It's true that a digital recording can never contain the amount of data in a vinyl groove, but who is saying that all the data in a vinyl groove is more of an accurate representation of all the data extant in the original sound wave than a digitally sampled recording?

    Although CDs have a wider dynamic range, mastering houses are often encouraged to compress the audio on CDs to make it as loud as possible: It's the so-called loudness war. Since the audio on vinyl can't be compressed to such extremes, records generally offer a more nuanced sound.

    This is similarly irrelevant. Compression is a way of altering a sound wave, and has nothing to do with the final recording medium. Overcompression is a problem, but this is not an argument for vinyl over CD--it's just a comment on postprocessing techniques.

    1. Re:not this again... by Em+Adespoton · · Score: 4, Informative

      Regarding degradation due to needles and quality shift due to needle choice: Many modern turntables actually use a laser instead of a needle. Of course, this means that the audio is digitally sampled at the vinyl....

      The other issue though is that pretty much all music produced these days (99.99% of studio music, and a large chunk of "live" music as well) has been post-processed with digital effects and adjustments. At this point, you've already converted everything into a digital format; writing it back to vinyl won't gain anything back, and writing it to CD only down-samples the master audio somewhat and merges the tracks. If you write it to one of the DVD Audio formats instead of Red Book, you don't even get the down-sampling.

      There are things you can do when using digital recording equipment that you simply can't do with vinyl, and most of the industry uses digital recording equipment nowadays.

    2. Re:not this again... by MenTaLguY · · Score: 5, Informative

      They're talking about dynamic range compression, which is different to data compression. In simple terms, dynamic range compression basically means amplifying the quieter parts of a song so they are closer in volume to the loudest parts. The music industry has taken it to ridiculous extremes in the past couple decades.

      --

      DNA just wants to be free...
    3. Re:not this again... by zsazsa · · Score: 4, Informative

      No, a laser does not mean that it is digitally sampled. And there's just one record player that uses a laser, and it's quite expensive.

    4. Re:not this again... by hjf · · Score: 4, Informative

      ... but vinyl is a medium which prevents postprocessing compression.


      Ah, these kids. Never heard of the RIAA equalization curve, I assume? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RIAA_equalization
    5. Re:not this again... by fyngyrz · · Score: 4, Informative

      how exactly does vynil prevent range compression ?

      It doesn't. The parent post to yours is 100% incorrect. Compression (and/or expansion) is a process applied to an audio signal. It makes no difference whatsoever where the signal comes from, or is going, or how it is encoded in the sense that compression can, or cannot, be applied. It can be applied once, zero times, or many times. It can be applied in the analog domain or in the digital domain, or both, in any combination. Digital compression needs to be applied to a digital signal (and you can digitize a signal destined for an analog medium before it gets there, or in the process of playing it back, and then reconvert to analog) and analog compression needs to be applied to an analog signal (and you can convert a digital signal to analog, compress it, and then press, or write, the master), or you can take the analog output of the record, compress it in analog or digital fashion, and then listen to it or re-record it. Etc., ad infinitum.

      CD's as a release medium may fall back to relatively minor levels, but this has nothing to do with audio quality (reputed or actual.) If it happens, it will be a consequence of digital file transfer capability everywhere from iTunes to bittorrent to swapping flash cards and pocketdrives.

      In the end, there will be a market for quite some time for those who prefer CD's for the convenience, stability and physicality of the media, and there will be a market for (new release) vinyl for those who like album covers, hearing pops and groove noise, are accustomed to severely reduced dynamic range, and who never turn the volume up high enough so that the system enters an uncontrollable LF feedback state. Old release vinyl has the unique ability to bring you performances that you can't find on CD, which is entirely another matter. And there will always be a market for wooden knobs that "add to the purity of the sound", cables that "sweeten the music", and various other "audiophile" mythologies-turned-ripoff-scams. Because (a) people don't understand the audio process, and (b) the entire thing is, by its very nature, extremely subjective. So much so that you can barely find an actual review on specifications any longer.

      Back to compression. Make no mistake: There is nothing about the CD as a medium that says it needs to be compressed; the significantly higher dynamic range actually allows for less compression than you typically hear on an old-school LP. The fact that you rarely get to experience this is a consequence of various social factors from radio stations which want to be "as loud as that other station" to a general feeling in the recording industry that if you make an uncompressed recording, your recording will sound "too quiet" compared to everyone else's, and so require the listener to adjust their sound system, an inconvenience unthinkable for some reason that has always been completely opaque to me. But then again, I listen to music carefully, not as background that I require be at a particular level of monotony.

      --
      I've fallen off your lawn, and I can't get up.
    6. Re:not this again... by soleblaze · · Score: 4, Informative

      There's only 3 laser turntables. They're around $10-14k, and don't get very good reviews. These models were actually invented in '83, but never gained widespread sales due to the CD coming out soon after. I've never heard of it being anything other than a novelty. Due to it's sensitivity it's not even useful to read old vinyls without damaging them. That's usually done by taking high resolution photos and tracking the groove with software.

  2. Vinyl sounds better? Hogwash! by Lucas123 · · Score: 4, Informative

    A friend of mine and I had this battle about 10 years ago. He had a very high-end turntable from Linn and I had a CD player from Nakamichi. His argument was that vinyl retained a certain "warmth" and "depth" of sound that was lost in digital recordings. We played jazz, classical and soft rock tracks from various artists and the CD simply blew the turntable out of the water. The vinyl recording, even on his ultra high-end turntable and component stereo system, still audibly popped and crackled. The CD sounded absolutely clear and had an impressive depth of sound. The argument died for me that day. Technology is king.

  3. New Orthophonic by tepples · · Score: 5, Informative

    Hum how exactly does vynil prevent range compression ? (honest question here)

    For one thing, vinyl has always had a loudness standard: the bigger you make the grooves, the fewer can fit on the record. So LPs were most often mastered at levels appropriate for a 24 minute side. (Extended singles for club play, which have fewer songs on them, are often mastered louder.) Compact Disc Digital Audio, on the other hand, never had a concrete definition of the playback volume.

    CD is more portable than vinyl and is often listened to in a moving environment. The loudness race started when portable audio players such as Sony Discman and car units first came out. Some used a cheap op-amp to drive cheap headphones; others were car units that played over the radio. Record producers realized that end users could barely hear Dire Straits' Brothers in Arms over environmental noise, and they pushed mastering engineers to push the levels hotter.

    Also, vinyl equalizes the bass down before recording and equalizes it back up in the player's preamp, based on a standardized New Orthophonic preemphasis curve. The limiter algorithms to overamplify an audio signal while fitting it into [-1..1] in the flat-equalized time domain of CD are not optimal for a time domain equalized in New Orthophonic. It's the producer's job to approve a master, and hearing these suboptimal results on vinyl might encourage an ambitious producer to back off on the demands to the mastering engineer.

  4. Re:New Analog Format by HolyCrapSCOsux · · Score: 4, Informative

    Tivo man!
    TIVO

    (I haven't seen it either)

    --
    0xB315AA8D852DCD3F3DCA578FD2E0BF88
  5. Re:New Analog Format by MoxFulder · · Score: 4, Informative
    It sounds like someone at Wired has drank the audiophile kool-aid...

    Another reason for vinyl's sonic superiority is that no matter how high a sampling rate is, it can never contain all of the data present in an analog groove, Nyquist's theorem to the contrary. Are you kidding me? A CD with a sampling frequency of 44 kHz carries sound up to 20 kHz, which is beyond the hearing limit of most humans. An analog groove may in theory carry sound up to very high frequencies, but is badly limited in practice by the difficulty of cutting a precise high-frequency groove, the non-linear response of the cartridge at high frequency, and a host of other factors. Not to mention the fact that NO ONE CAN HEAR THOSE SOUNDS above 20 kHz! And to get top-notch frequency response out of a record player, you have to obsess over the cleanliness and storage of your records and player... and even then you're likely to degrade the frequency response RAPIDLY to well below the level of a CD (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vinyl_record#Frequency_response_and_noise)

    Wired seems to take all the standard audiophile BS hook, line, and sinker... "analog provides a warmer sound" (much more total harmonic distortion than a digital player), etc.

    The argument about hot mastered CDs is particularly hilarious (reduced dynamic range). Basically, this is a result of crappy commercial pressure to sound louder, and is common but by no means universal. The fact that vinyl lacks this possibility is touted as an advantage. It's like claiming that a knife is better than a gun, because you can't shoot yourself in the foot with the knife.

    For a devastating rebuttal of audiophile BS from a very experienced engineer, read Douglas Self's site: http://www.dself.dsl.pipex.com/ampins/pseudo/subjectv.htm
  6. Re:New Analog Format by prionic6 · · Score: 5, Informative

    Sorry mwvdlee, you are wrong. Acording to Nyquist, EVERY signal that has a limited bandwidth (don't know if that's the correct english term), that means it contains no frequencies above a certain limit frequency, can be totally reconstructed out of a sampled signal with double that limit frequency as sampling rate. This is a perfect reconstruction if you leave noise floor out of the equation. With 24 bit or even 16 bit per sample the noise floor is practically unhearable and much better than on a vinyl record.

    Please, read up a bit about digital signals and the Nyquist theorem, it is counter-intuitive, but it works. There are no "edges" in a reconstructed (played) digital signal!